The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

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The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Relinquish85 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:37 pm

Firstly, before we get to the unsolvable mystery, I would like to point out a few 'peripheral' claims that I think MAY be safely made about Reality;

Fundamentally, ALL 'things' and 'events' (including 'ourselves') are actually arbitrarily delineated, impermanent 'features' of the eternally cyclic Universal Process (the only Process that ever actually occurs in Reality).

If the ceaseless change that is this Process had an absolute beginning, that beginning would also be the ending of a prior 'beginningless absence of change'. If it had an absolute ending, that ending would also be the beginning of a subsequent 'endless absence of change'. Such a situation is an absolute impossibility.

Therefore, the Universal Process MUST be eternally cyclic.

An 'eternal absence of Process' would ALWAYS be a completely structureless, ever-changeless and infinitely symmetrical state. For this reason, the Universal Process can ONLY be the 'structured ever-changing asymmetry' that It is.

Now for the mystery;

Ultimately, the true nature of Reality (that is to say, the actual reason why there is a Process occurring at all, why 'experiencing' happens at particular 'times' and 'places' within It, and in turn, why an illusion of separateness and duality seems to arise in the most complex of these experiences) is absolutely unknowable....

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:46 pm

"Or MAY not."
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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Relinquish85 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:30 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:"Or MAY not."


Fair enough. Of course, IF they may be, then they also may not be.

I do, however, remain standing by them.

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:43 pm

Relinquish85 wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:"Or MAY not."


Fair enough. Of course, IF they may be, then they also may not be.

I do, however, remain standing by them.

Then you're dismissed.
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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Poodle » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:45 pm

No. Far too much 'may', 'arbitrarily', 'if', 'would', 'absolute impossibility', 'therefore', 'can only be', 'absolutely unknowable' for my liking. I've read your post a few times and I still haven't seen through all the hedging.
Try to rephrase it in more transparent terminology, if you please.

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:47 pm

Relinquish85 wrote:ALL 'things' and 'events' (including 'ourselves') are actually arbitrarily delineated, impermanent 'features' of the eternally cyclic Universal Process (the only Process that ever actually occurs in Reality).
Not true. The universe isn't cyclic. What's your evidence it is?

Relinquish85 wrote:Now for the mystery;

Ultimately, the true nature of Reality (that is to say, the actual reason why there is a Process occurring at all, why 'experiencing' happens at particular 'times' and 'places' within It, and in turn, why an illusion of separateness and duality seems to arise in the most complex of these experiences) is absolutely unknowable....
Isn't it good news that Higgs boson was found by CERN recently? Isn't it good news that there a couple of "theory of Everything" hypotheses being formed at the moment?

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:51 pm

So far, cyclical universe theories (such as Quantum Loop Gravity) have run afowl of the second law of thermodynamics. So far, the fowl is winning.
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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Relinquish85 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:12 am

Poodle wrote:No. Far too much 'may', 'arbitrarily', 'if', 'would', 'absolute impossibility', 'therefore', 'can only be', 'absolutely unknowable' for my liking. I've read your post a few times and I still haven't seen through all the hedging.
Try to rephrase it in more transparent terminology, if you please.


I'll see what I can do, but I don't like my chances.

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Relinquish85 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:59 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:ALL 'things' and 'events' (including 'ourselves') are actually arbitrarily delineated, impermanent 'features' of the eternally cyclic Universal Process (the only Process that ever actually occurs in Reality).
Not true. The universe isn't cyclic. What's your evidence it is?

Relinquish85 wrote:Now for the mystery;

Ultimately, the true nature of Reality (that is to say, the actual reason why there is a Process occurring at all, why 'experiencing' happens at particular 'times' and 'places' within It, and in turn, why an illusion of separateness and duality seems to arise in the most complex of these experiences) is absolutely unknowable....
Isn't it good news that Higgs boson was found by CERN recently? Isn't it good news that there a couple of "theory of Everything" hypotheses being formed at the moment?


As I said, "If the ceaseless change that is this Process had an absolute beginning, that beginning would also be the ending of a prior 'beginningless absence of change'. If it had an absolute ending, that ending would also be the beginning of a subsequent 'endless absence of change'. Such a situation is an absolute impossibility."

How could a beginningless absence of change ever come to an end? How could an endless absence of change ever begin? This is what is being suggested with the idea that change has a beginning and an ending.
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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:03 am

THIS universe has a beginning and it has no end that can be foretold (theories only). It may or may not cycle with other universes that may or may not be the same. BESIDES......anything that takes trillions of years from beginning to end............in a real sense............. is not a recyle of anything else. Its too big to fit in the bin.
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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:05 am

Relinquish85 wrote: As I said...., "Ultimately, the true nature of Reality..... is absolutely unknowable....
Yet all the real evidence is that we are doing exactly that.

Relinquish85 wrote:How could a beginningless absence of change ever come to an end?
Who cares. Your word salad has nothing to do with physics and the current discoveries as to the nature of the universe. .

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Relinquish85 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:07 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:THIS universe has a beginning and it has no end that can be foretold (theories only). It may or may not cycle with other universes that may or may not be the same. BESIDES......anything that takes trillions of years from beginning to end............in a real sense............. is not a recyle of anything else. Its too big to fit in the bin.


What "other universes"? Do you have any evidence for them?

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:07 am

Poodle wrote: Try to rephrase it in more transparent terminology, if you please.
Relinquish85 wrote:I'll see what I can do, but I don't like my chances.
Make sense or drop your claim.

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:12 am

Relinquish85 wrote: What "other universes"? Do you have any evidence for them?

I was only following YOUR setup. The most previous universe was the one of constant no change? What cycles if not one universe into another one? Can't you follow your own argument? Maybe you could if it made sense?
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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Relinquish85 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:12 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote: What "other universes"? Do you have any evidence for them?

I was only following YOUR setup. The most previous universe was the one of constant no change? What cycles if not one universe into another one? Can't you follow your own argument? Maybe you could if it made sense?

My mistake Bobbo. I thought you ment other universes alongside this one.

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:15 am

Relinquish85 wrote: My mistake Bobbo. I thought you ment other universes alongside this one.

........why.....no! THAT would be a lateral transfer. That is allowed, but doesn't advance the ball. A very disfavored model. Why would you set it up as one after another and then go lateral?

makes no sense. Thats a thing when you use too many words.

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:32 pm

Poodle wrote:No. Far too much 'may', 'arbitrarily', 'if', 'would', 'absolute impossibility', 'therefore', 'can only be', 'absolutely unknowable' for my liking. I've read your post a few times and I still haven't seen through all the hedging.
Try to rephrase it in more transparent terminology, if you please.

Something like "." would be fine.
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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Relinquish85 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:11 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote: My mistake Bobbo. I thought you ment other universes alongside this one.

........why.....no! THAT would be a lateral transfer. That is allowed, but doesn't advance the ball. A very disfavored model. Why would you set it up as one after another and then go lateral?

makes no sense. Thats a thing when you use too many words.

KISS.


How did I "go lateral"? I thought you were referring to other universes beyond this one that all exist at the same time.

I was obviously mistaken.

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:44 pm

Relinquish85: Why is the sky blue?
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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Relinquish85 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:56 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Relinquish85: Why is the sky blue?


I'll admit straight up that the following is copied and pasted from the very top of a Google search of that question;

"A clear cloudless day-time sky is blue because molecules in the air scatter blue light from the sun more than they scatter red light. When we look towards the sun at sunset, we see red and orange colours because the blue light has been scattered out and away from the line of sight."

My question to you (as meaningless as it is) is, what is the true nature of Reality, such that there is a universe of any kind going on within It, with 'experiencing' happening at particular times and places within said universe?

Don't worry if you don't know the answer to that one. No one ever has, and no one ever will. Some people (myself included) have at times mistakenly imagined that they have figured it out.

However, to realize that the answer to this question is fundamentally unknowable is to look directly at the territory rather than remaining hopelessly fascinated by any map of it.

Not that there's anything wrong with maps.

:)
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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:17 am

Reality is what hits you in the nose when you think nothing is there.
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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Relinquish85 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:34 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Reality is what hits you in the nose when you think nothing is there.


I answered your question, Bobbo. It would be nice if you could at least acknowledge mine.

:)

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Relinquish85 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:06 pm

This my attempt, as per Poodle's request, to rephrase my OP in as transparent terminology (considering the scope I'm trying to deal with) as I can possibly muster;

Fundamentally, ALL 'things' and 'events' (including 'ourselves') are actually arbitrarily delineated, impermanent 'features' of the eternally cyclic Process of Being (the only Process that ever actually occurs in Reality).

If the ceaseless change that is this Process had an absolute beginning, that beginning would also be the ending of a prior 'beginningless absence of change'. If it had an absolute ending, that ending would also be the beginning of a subsequent 'endless absence of change'. Such a situation is an absolute impossibility.

Therefore, the Process of Being MUST be eternally cyclic.

An eternal 'state of non-being' would ALWAYS be a completely structureless, ever-changeless and infinitely symmetrical state. For this reason, the Process of Being can ONLY be the 'structured ever-changing asymmetry' that It is.

However, the true nature of Reality (that is to say, the actual reason why there is a Process occurring at all, why 'experiencing' happens at particular 'times' and 'places' within It, and in turn, why an illusion of separateness and duality seems to arise in the most complex of these experiences) is absolutely unknowable....

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:11 pm

Relinquish85 wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Reality is what hits you in the nose when you think nothing is there.


I answered your question, Bobbo. It would be nice if you could at least acknowledge mine.

:)

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:43 pm

Relinquish85 wrote: ALL 'things' and 'events' are actually arbitrarily delineated........,

Complete Fail : A photon is not arbitrarily delineated. It is a photon. An electron is not arbitrarily delineated. It is an electron. An event such as temperature rising 1 degree is not arbitrarily delineated. It is temperature rising one degree.

Relinquish85 wrote:...... impermanent 'features' of the eternally cyclic Process of Being (the only Process that ever actually occurs in Reality).

Complete Fail : You have no evidence the universe is cyclic or that everything in it is impermanent or cyclic. How do you know there are no electron still floating around from the Big bang?

Relinquish85 wrote: If the ceaseless change that is this Process had an absolute beginning, that beginning would also be the ending of a prior 'beginningless absence of change'. If it had an absolute ending, that ending would also be the beginning of a subsequent 'endless absence of change'. Such a situation is an absolute impossibility.

That paragraph makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and contains words you made up.

You really need to change to a religious forum, where sense and logic are not required.

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:58 am

Relinquish85 wrote:Firstly, before we get to the unsolvable mystery...
First, you need to define the terms you're using. When you say "reality," are you referring to physical existence? Or are you using the term in a broader sense? You also need to define "universal process."

Next, you need to provide some evidence for your preliminary statements, including:
• that objects with mass/space-time events are delineated;
• that the delineation is arbitrary;
• that objects with mass/space-time events are impermanent;
• that the "universal process" of which you speak is cyclic; and,
• that the cycling is eternal.

Next, you need evidence for your claim that this "process" is ceaseless, and resolve the contradiction between your two statements, one of which alleged "ceaseless change," and the other which alleged "endless absence of change."

Lastly, I don't believe that you've logically worked your way to your conclusion, since you've made numerous assumptions along the way, any or all of which could be erroneous. I'm not saying that your conclusion is wrong, only that you haven't proven it.
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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Relinquish85 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:48 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote: ALL 'things' and 'events' are actually arbitrarily delineated........,

Complete Fail : A photon is not arbitrarily delineated. It is a photon. An electron is not arbitrarily delineated. It is an electron. An event such as temperature rising 1 degree is not arbitrarily delineated. It is temperature rising one degree.

Relinquish85 wrote:...... impermanent 'features' of the eternally cyclic Process of Being (the only Process that ever actually occurs in Reality).

Complete Fail : You have no evidence the universe is cyclic or that everything in it is impermanent or cyclic. How do you know there are no electron still floating around from the Big bang?

Relinquish85 wrote: If the ceaseless change that is this Process had an absolute beginning, that beginning would also be the ending of a prior 'beginningless absence of change'. If it had an absolute ending, that ending would also be the beginning of a subsequent 'endless absence of change'. Such a situation is an absolute impossibility.

That paragraph makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and contains words you made up.

You really need to change to a religious forum, where sense and logic are not required.


'Photon' is a concept. 'Electron' is a concept. 'Temperature rising 1 degree' is a concept. They are nowhere to be found in the actual Process of Being, but only on intellectual maps of It. These maps are of course practical and useful, but they have also been mistaken for what is REALLY here, which is only the Process. I would describe this Process as the 'activity' of Reality Itself.

Exactly why Reality is in any way 'active', no one knows.

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:54 pm

The Process of Being a BS. Got it.
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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:59 pm

Relinquish85 wrote: 'Photon' is a concept. 'Electron' is a concept. 'Temperature rising 1 degree' is a concept.
No son. They are the names given to those things which can all be measured.

Relinquish85 wrote:They are nowhere to be found in the actual Process of Being
....which is a silly subjective concept of yours that can't be measured and has nothing to do with photons, electrons and temperature rising. :D

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:17 pm

Sophomore philosophy students, gotta love 'em.
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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Relinquish85 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:59 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote: 'Photon' is a concept. 'Electron' is a concept. 'Temperature rising 1 degree' is a concept.
No son. They are the names given to those things which can all be measured.

Relinquish85 wrote:They are nowhere to be found in the actual Process of Being
....which is a silly subjective concept of yours that can't be measured and has nothing to do with photons, electrons and temperature rising. :D


Measurements can definitely be made. However, all that has ever really been measured are conventionally delineated portions of the Process.

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:29 am

Relinquish85 wrote: Measurements can definitely be made. However, all that has ever really been measured are conventionally delineated portions of the Process.
Well if we can measure photons, electron and temperature changes, which are real things, and you can't even define your "magical process", then we can dismiss your magical process and only concern ourselves about the real things.

You do realise you are posting on a science based forum and not a religious based forum?

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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Gord » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:54 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Sophomore philosophy students, gotta love 'em.

Hopefully my Soylent Green proposition will pass quickly through congress so we could at least have a better use for 'em.
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Re: The Unsolvable Mystery of Reality Itself

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:55 am

Gord wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Sophomore philosophy students, gotta love 'em.

Hopefully my Soylent Green proposition will pass quickly through congress so we could at least have a better use for 'em.

Just don't feed them to animals.
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