We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

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We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Omniverse » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:37 am

When I am in my most miserable and hopeless state due to an emotional trauma, then my whole entire reality is the most horrible hell. But when I reach a state of full recovery, I am able to see harmony, peace, joy, beauty, and goodness. This is a perception that I never had during that miserable moment. This is a perception that goes beyond a value judgment. In other words, it goes beyond a mere thought and it is like a blind person recovering his sight.

So, I can clearly tell that this is not a matter of my value judgment when I say that I see the peace, harmony, joy, and goodness in my life. This proves that our positive mood and emotional state is the inner light to our lives. I could clearly tell that thoughts themselves of goodness and beauty during my miserable moments did absolutely nothing. I have thought of the idea of getting the help I needed as something good, worthwhile, and beautiful, but my life was still completely empty. I was still in the darkness and could not actually see the goodness of getting that help I needed.

Based on this, I conclude that we might have a sense like sight that allows us to see our entire world as good and beautiful. I would personally call it the "Divine Sense." It is a new sense that has yet to be discovered by science. When we are in a positive mood or emotional state, then that is this sense allowing us to perceive stable qualities of good value as well as enhanced and more profound qualities of good value and beauty in our lives. Likewise, negative emotions such as misery and hopelessness are this sense allowing us to truly see things as horrible, bad, disgusting, etc. That is why I say that positive emotions are an objective good while negative emotions are an objective bad. So, this objective good and bad would be an intrinsic quality (our positive and negative emotions).

So, when a person is completely miserable and hopeless and a person comes along, giving the suggestion to just work at developing a new mindset, then that is only focusing away from one's own inner light which is the very vital and precious thing that allows us to see the goodness in our lives in the first place. It is NOT value judgments and our ways of thinking alone that allow us to see the goodness in our lives. It is our new sense that does. Could a blind person make himself see? No, but he could certainly be deluded into thinking he can. Actually, let me make it a better analogy. It would be like people who think they can see the truth, but are really blind to it.

Edit #1: I am under the impression that people are just denying the existence of my own inner light and expecting me to live by the standard of words alone. Words themselves possess no power in my life to give my life any real joy, good value, etc. I need my inner light (positive emotions) to make that happen. For such a blatant and obvious need to be dismissed and denied as nonexistence, especially such a profound need, then that just really gets to me.

I am fed up with people in my life dismissing my inner light as nonexistence and all in my head. They think it is just my value judgment. But, like I said, value judgments are just words and words themselves are empty in my life without my inner light. The values in my life are something that go beyond words which is a value system that takes it to a higher level than a value system based on words alone going through our minds.

I would call my values the consciousness based values since they are values that focus on our own inner conscious light and darkness rather than just judgments (words) alone. These values focus on what it is like rather than what we judge. For example, what it's like to see the color red is not a matter of value judgment. It is a matter of consciousness. So, if a certain state of mind is truly like something beautiful for you (in my case, a positive emotion) and this beauty transcends mere value judgments, then we would call this a beautiful consciousness based value.

It would be pure goodness itself. Consciousness is everything to our human existence and shouldn't be ignored. If it weren't for consciousness, then we would all be dead. As a matter of fact, we would not be able to perceive any qualities in our lives without it. So, what it all comes down to here is what it's like to judge your life as something good and beautiful. Not a simple matter of just judging your life as something good and beautiful. What I was trying to do here with my whole idea is to present it in such a way that would hopefully convince others so that they would understand my need as a real need and no longer dismiss it as fantasy. There are many mysterious about consciousness that we have yet to know and perhaps my idea is a mystery that I have figured out from personal experience.

Edit #2: Actually, I think my idea is already known. Let me post a person's response and my reply to him:

Other Person's Response:
I think the word you are looking for is "conscience"; "an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior" (Google's definition). You can certainly interpret this as a sense. Luckily for you, science's got you covered already, and the existence of conscience is fully explained by evolutionary psychology.

In other words: you're quite right that humans have this sense (although it's certainly not objective/absolute), and you're quite wrong when you say that science hasn't discovered this yet.

My Reply: This inner voice would not be a thought. Like I said, these are values that go beyond our thoughts.

Other Person's Response: Conscience is not a thought either, it's "an inner feeling or voice", so conscience can also be said to "go beyond our thoughts".

My Reply: I'm not sure, but this could be the idea I was advocating all along. I don't know on this one. But if that were my idea, then why would there be so many people out in this world claiming that the misery and hopeless feelings in our lives can make our lives something truly beautiful if we make something of it? That all goes back to my example with the famous and genius miserable artists.

My idea, according to what you've just said, would be that it can only be our positive emotions which give us this "good voice" (what I call a surge of inner light energy that goes beyond words) while it can only be our negative emotions which can give us this "bad voice" (what I call a surge of inner dark energy that goes beyond words). These emotions are the voices themselves which means that these voices are always there. A stable positive mood would be like a singer constantly humming a good tune while positive emotional states would be like the singer loudly singing a good tune.

Without emotions, then we could only have a neutral voice (a neither good nor bad voice regardless of what we were to think or believe otherwise). These good and bad voices are what make our lives truly matter to us in good or bad ways. Without this voice, then nothing can truly matter to us regardless of what we were to believe otherwise. It would be like a positive and negative charge. Except, consider our emotions to be the positive (good) charges and the negative (bad) charges. Having neither a positive nor negative charge would be no charge at all.

Lastly, here is a link to the discussion he and I had on another science forum:

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/a-scie ... st-3477005

Mixed Emotions: Now, if you were in a situation where you had mixed emotions, then you would be perceiving both good and bad value at the same time. It would be something like 20% good and 80% bad in regards to certain things and situations. It all depends on the degree of positive and negative emotions that are there. So, the fact that these miserable genius artists still saw their lives and art as beautiful means they would have to have had some degree of positive emotion mixed in. Otherwise, they would just be deluding themselves.
Last edited by Omniverse on Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:17 pm, edited 11 times in total.

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Matt MVS7 Trolling Thread No15

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:42 am

Omniverse wrote:When I am in my most miserable and hopeless state due to an emotional trauma, then my whole entire reality is the most horrible hell. But when I reach a state of full recovery, I am able to see harmony, peace, joy, beauty, and goodness. This is a perception that I never had during that miserable moment. This is a perception that goes beyond a value judgment. In other words, it goes beyond a mere thought and it is like a blind person recovering his sight.

So, I can clearly tell that this is not a matter of my value judgment when I say that I see the peace, harmony, joy, and goodness in my life. This proves that our positive mood and emotional state is the inner light to our lives. I could clearly tell that thoughts themselves of goodness and beauty during my miserable moments did absolutely nothing. I have thought of the idea of getting the help I needed as something good, worthwhile, and beautiful, but my life was still completely empty. I was still in the darkness and could not actually see the goodness of getting that help I needed.

Based on this, I conclude that we might have a sense like sight that allows us to see our entire world as good and beautiful. I would personally call it the "Divine Sense." It is a new sense that has yet to be discovered by science. When we are in a positive mood or emotional state, then that is this sense allowing us to perceive stable qualities of good value as well as enhanced and more profound qualities of good value and beauty in our lives. Likewise, negative emotions such as misery and hopelessness are this sense allowing us to truly see things as horrible, bad, disgusting, etc. That is why I say that positive emotions are an objective good while negative emotions are an objective bad. So, this objective good and bad would be an intrinsic quality (our positive and negative emotions).

So, when a person is completely miserable and hopeless and a person comes along, giving the suggestion to just work at developing a new mindset, then that is only focusing away from one's own inner light which is the very vital and precious thing that allows us to see the goodness in our lives in the first place. It is NOT value judgments and our ways of thinking alone that allow us to see the goodness in our lives. It is our new sense that does. Could a blind person make himself see? No, but he could certainly be deluded into thinking he can. Actually, let me make it a better analogy. It would be like people who think they can see the truth, but are really blind to it.


Don't worry kids. It is exactly the same crap he wrote last time. :lol:

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Phoenix76 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:26 am

Sheeeeeet! Hey listen Omniverse, I can recommend a real good Psychologist. But she is here in Australia. Sorry.

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Omniverse » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:39 am

Phoenix76 wrote:Sheeeeeet! Hey listen Omniverse, I can recommend a real good Psychologist. But she is here in Australia. Sorry.


You make my observation out to be indicative of a mentally ill crackpot. This isn't the case. I have just had my own profound personal experience and I am wanting to share it. Many people have profound experiences and whatnot happen to them. It doesn't mean they are mentally ill crackpots. There are many people out there with new ideas, but that doesn't make them crazy people in need of a psychologist either. Lastly, let me present something here. It is something important which I've also edited into my opening post:

Edit: I am under the impression that people are just denying the existence of my own inner light and expecting me to live by the standard of words alone. Words themselves possess no power in my life to give my life any real joy, good value, etc. I need my inner light (positive emotions) to make that happen. For such a blatant and obvious need to be dismissed and denied as nonexistence, especially such a profound need, then that just really gets to me.

I am fed up with people in my life dismissing my inner light as nonexistence and all in my head. They think it is just my value judgment. But, like I said, value judgments are just words and words themselves are empty in my life without my inner light. The values in my life are something that go beyond words which is a value system that takes it to a higher level than a value system based on words alone going through our minds.

I would call my values the consciousness based values since they are values that focus on our own inner conscious light and darkness rather than just judgments (words) alone. These values focus on what it is like rather than what we judge. For example, what it's like to see the color red is not a matter of value judgment. It is a matter of consciousness. So, if a certain state of mind is truly like something beautiful for you (in my case, a positive emotion) and this beauty transcends mere value judgments, then we would call this a beautiful consciousness based value.

It would be pure goodness itself. Consciousness is everything to our human existence and shouldn't be ignored. If it weren't for consciousness, then we would all be dead. As a matter of fact, we would not be able to perceive any qualities in our lives without it. So, what it all comes down to here is what it's like to judge your life as something good and beautiful. Not a simple matter of just judging your life as something good and beautiful. What I was trying to do here with my whole idea is to present it in such a way that would hopefully convince others so that they would understand my need as a real need and no longer dismiss it as fantasy. There are many mysterious about consciousness that we have yet to know and perhaps my idea is a mystery that I have figured out from personal experience.

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:11 am

If you're not a crackpot why all the crackpot crap you post?
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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Omniverse » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:25 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:If you're not a crackpot why all the crackpot crap you post?


Actually, I think my idea is already known. Let me post a person's response and my reply to him:

Other Person's Response:
I think the word you are looking for is "conscience"; "an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior" (Google's definition). You can certainly interpret this as a sense. Luckily for you, science's got you covered already, and the existence of conscience is fully explained by evolutionary psychology.

In other words: you're quite right that humans have this sense (although it's certainly not objective/absolute), and you're quite wrong when you say that science hasn't discovered this yet.

My Reply: This inner voice would not be a thought. Like I said, these are values that go beyond our thoughts.

Other Person's Response: Conscience is not a thought either, it's "an inner feeling or voice", so conscience can also be said to "go beyond our thoughts".

My Reply: I'm not sure, but this could be the idea I was advocating all along. I don't know on this one. But if that were my idea, then why would there be so many people out in this world claiming that the misery and hopeless feelings in our lives can make our lives something truly beautiful if we make something of it? That all goes back to my example with the famous and genius miserable artists.

My idea, according to what you've just said, would be that it can only be our positive emotions which give us this "good voice" (what I call a surge of inner light energy that goes beyond words) while it can only be our negative emotions which can give us this "bad voice" (what I call a surge of inner dark energy that goes beyond words). These emotions are the voices themselves which means that these voices are always there. A stable positive mood would be like a singer constantly humming a good tune while positive emotional states would be like the singer loudly singing a good tune.

Without emotions, then we could only have a neutral voice (a neither good nor bad voice regardless of what we were to think or believe otherwise). These good and bad voices are what make our lives truly matter to us in good or bad ways. Without this voice, then nothing can truly matter to us regardless of what we were to believe otherwise. It would be like a positive and negative charge. Except, consider our emotions to be the positive (good) charges and the negative (bad) charges. Having neither a positive nor negative charge would be no charge at all.

Lastly, here is a link to the discussion he and I had on another science forum:

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/a-scie ... st-3477005
Last edited by Omniverse on Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:06 pm

"Known" as in "Identified as BS but I don't care".
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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Gord » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:30 pm

Omniverse wrote:Let me post a person's response and my reply to him

Is this "person" a voice in your head?
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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Omniverse » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:42 pm

Gord wrote:
Omniverse wrote:Let me post a person's response and my reply to him

Is this "person" a voice in your head?


No, this is an actual person I had a discussion with on another science forum. Also, the terms light and dark are not meant to be taken literally. They are metaphorical terms. So, maybe that is the reason why I came across as a crackpot when presenting my idea.
Last edited by Omniverse on Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Gord » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:44 pm

Omniverse wrote:
Gord wrote:
Omniverse wrote:Let me post a person's response and my reply to him

Is this "person" a voice in your head?

No, this is an actual person I had a discussion with on another science forum.

Why not just link to instead of making it into an unsubstantiated anecdote?
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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Omniverse » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:45 pm

Gord wrote:
Omniverse wrote:
Gord wrote:
Omniverse wrote:Let me post a person's response and my reply to him

Is this "person" a voice in your head?

No, this is an actual person I had a discussion with on another science forum.

Why not just link to instead of making it into an unsubstantiated anecdote?


Sure:

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/a-scie ... st-3477005

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:58 pm

Omniverse wrote:
Gord wrote:
Omniverse wrote:Let me post a person's response and my reply to him

Is this "person" a voice in your head?


No, this is an actual person I had a discussion with on another science forum. Also, the terms light and dark are not meant to be taken literally. They are metaphorical terms. So, maybe that is the reason why I came across as a crackpot when presenting my idea.

How do you determine whether a person is actual or not?
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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:41 pm

Omniverse AKA Matt MVS7 AKA Kamil wrote: No, this is an actual person I had a discussion with on another science forum. .
You have been banned from most science forums for trolling and your link has confirmed again you are Matt MVS7 the troll.

Omniverse AKA Matt MVS7 AKA Kamil wrote:Yes, I've already been told this. But where I am getting at is that I am in a dangerous situation here since I cannot have a bowel movement due to this obsessive worry. If I don't have a bowel movement within a certain time and it all builds up in my system, I will die.

http://www.crazyboards.org/forums/index ... ent-923912

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Omniverse » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:31 am

I don't think my worldview is crazy and I will explain why. Don't most of us as human beings want to be happy? Aren't most of us hedonists? Yes, we are. We see our positive emotions as being truly beautiful things. We see them as the inner light to our being and lives. We wish to avoid the negative emotions such as feelings of despair because we see them as the inner darkness. So, I think my worldview has a completely natural basis. I do not think its basis is founded upon the mindset of a mentally ill or psychotic patient. I just happen to take hedonism one step further is all since my positive emotions are especially profoundly beautiful to me. My version of hedonism would be an upgraded version that I call "New Age Hedonism."

Some might say that I have taken hedonism into the realm of mysticism and have fabricated a spiritual form of hedonism which states that our positive emotions are like the divine light of god that we need in our lives. There are many different types of mystics out there. Most adhere their lives to self sacrifice, non hedonistic pursuits, and the carrying on in a depressed or miserable life. But I am a different form of mystic. I am a hedonistic mystic. So, instead of a sacred monk who adheres his life to non hedonistic ways, I am like a sacred monk who just wishes to have a jolly time since this is something profoundly beautiful to me. But, remember, I do not actually believe in mysticism. I am undecided when it comes to the existence of the paranormal, god, and the afterlife.

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:48 am

Matt MVS7 wrote:I don't think my worldview is crazy and I will explain why.
You are a non stop liar trolling science and skeptic forums.

Matt MVS7 wrote:Everyone must always be cool to me. In other words, I must always get a good vibe from them. If they show a bad attitude towards me and show scorn and/or detest towards me, then they die.

http://www.crazyboards.org/forums/index ... ent-877173

Matt MVS7 wrote: I have this highly gifted composing talent due to my autism.....
:lol:
http://www.crazyboards.org/forums/index ... ent-877173

Here is one of Matt MVS7's highly gifted compositions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-FClkKSRN4

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Omniverse » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:30 am

My Brain Would Have Adapted: I have struggled for 10 whole years with misery as I've stated before. Our brains have the remarkable ability to adapt to harsh situations. For example, if you have lost a loved one in your life, then your brain would eventually adapt to the situation where you would finally perceive your life as having good value and worth despite that loss. The fact that no such adaptation has ever happened to me is solid proof that our positive emotions truly are the only things that can make our lives and artistic endeavors something good, worthwhile, and beautiful. The fact that other people still saw their lives and art as something beautiful in despite of their hopelessness/misery would have to either mean, again, that these people had at least some degree of positive emotion or they were only deluding themselves. One might say that it is instead because my worldview has never changed which prevented this adaptation. Again, I do not agree that there is some sort of adaptation that can replace our emotional experiences.

I think emotions are everything to our human existence due to all of the arguments I have presented in this packet. Even if my worldview did change, I do not think it could ever give my life any real experience of good or bad value to make my life truly matter to me in good or bad ways. It would still have to be my emotions that can do this. Furthermore, if a person believed he could not adapt to a cold, harsh, or warm environment, then such a belief would not prevent the adaptation. This would have to mean that my brain would have, again, adapted to those miserable moments which would have resulted in my life having a whole new sense of joy, beauty, good value, etc. despite that misery regardless of my established belief system. My life would now matter to me in beautiful and good ways despite that misery. The fact that such a thing did not happen to me ever is proof that no such adaptation exists. That is why it either has to be a delusion or some degree of positive emotion there for these depressed and miserable people/artists.

Usually, the brain is supposed to adapt to harsh situations in such a way that you don't become suicidal and wish to end your life. This has never happened to me. The only reason why I remained in this life during that whole 10 year struggle is because, for each and every single miserable moment I've had and fully recovered from during that whole struggle, I thought that would have been the end. In other words, once I reached a state of full recovery from one miserable moment, I thought that was the end of it and thought that the next one I would have would be the end of that one, too. But it actually turned out to be a whole 10 year long struggle which was something I was not expecting. My life was not worth living during that whole entire time. I was just merely sticking around. My life was the worst hell during that whole time completely devoid of all goodness and beauty. The fact that my brain has never adapted to make my life worth living has to mean that the inner light is absolutely vital and necessary and that there is no adaptation that can replace the inner light.

It's as though I was being constantly lured and trapped into the worst dark pit over and over again and it took such a long time for me to finally be free of that pit permanently. I think we as human beings often times find ourselves being lured into such dark pits constantly all the time and it takes a lot of work to get ourselves out. Some might tell me that the reason why my life was not anything worth living or filled with goodness and beauty during that whole struggle was due to a character defect or weakness. Again, I don't think this is so. My brain would have adapted on its own if that were the case regardless of my belief system and my character. After all, the brain is an organ that promotes our survival. So, why in the world wouldn't it adapt to make my life worth living to the point where I would not have this whole idea of ending my life if I couldn't regain my positive emotions? From this, I can honestly conclude that the inner light is truly all there is to life and it doesn't matter how strong and enduring of a person you are. Character strength can never replace the inner light.

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Phoenix76 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:52 am

Geez, why did I even bother replying. Just gives more fodder for inane comments. Here we go again.

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Omniverse » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:30 am

Phoenix76 wrote:Geez, why did I even bother replying. Just gives more fodder for inane comments. Here we go again.


I think you left out my 2nd edit in my opening post because this idea of mine might be already known in terms of psychology. I might have just presented it in such a way that made me out to be a crackpot. I have had a discussion with someone else on a different science forum as I explain in that 2nd edit.

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:49 am

"I have struggled for 10 whole years with misery as I've stated before. "

Happily, we haven't had to read your posts that long.
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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:55 pm

Omniverse wrote:This is a perception that goes beyond a value judgment.
Let's see...
Omniverse wrote:When I am in my most miserable and hopeless state due to an emotional trauma, then my whole entire reality is the most horrible hell.
This is a value judgment.
Omniverse wrote:But when I reach a state of full recovery, I am able to see harmony, peace, joy, beauty, and goodness.
This is a value judgment.
Omniverse wrote:So, I can clearly tell that this is not a matter of my value judgment when I say that I see the peace, harmony, joy, and goodness in my life.
Actually, you're just denying the observable fact that you're making value judgments.
Omniverse wrote:This proves that our positive mood and emotional state is the inner light to our lives.
No. You've proven nothing.
Omniverse wrote:I could clearly tell that thoughts themselves of goodness and beauty during my miserable moments did absolutely nothing.
Sure. Merely thinking of goodness when you're experiencing severe anhedonia won't cut it. But you can be taught to transform your thoughts into emotions via neural plasticity.
Omniverse wrote:Based on this, I conclude that we might have a sense like sight that allows us to see our entire world as good and beautiful.
Based on what? You're denying observable evidence, then jumping to a conclusion based on that denial.
Omniverse wrote:It is a new sense that has yet to be discovered by science.
You need a background in neurology, psychology, and philosophy before you make such a conclusive statement.
Omniverse wrote:When we are in a positive mood or emotional state, then that is this sense allowing us to perceive stable qualities of good value as well as enhanced and more profound qualities of good value and beauty in our lives. Likewise, negative emotions such as misery and hopelessness are this sense allowing us to truly see things as horrible, bad, disgusting, etc.
I'm perfectly capable of perceiving both "good value" and "beauty" when I'm experiencing negative emotions. And vice versa. I don't have the ability to solve complex differential equations, but I don't conclude, based on my personal limitations, that those equations cannot be solved.
Omniverse wrote:So, this objective good and bad would be an intrinsic quality (our positive and negative emotions).
There are no such concepts as "objective good" and "objective bad." Concluding that a person, concept, thing, or event is "good" or "bad" is an entirely subjective process...and an individual one.
Omniverse wrote:So, when a person is completely miserable and hopeless and a person comes along, giving the suggestion to just work at developing a new mindset, then that is only focusing away from one's own inner light which is the very vital and precious thing that allows us to see the goodness in our lives in the first place.
Developing "a new mindset" is not overriding some mystical "inner light" with deluded perceptions. Neural plasticity means that you are capable of reprogramming your own brain by transforming your positive thoughts into positive emotions. For example, smiling causes the brain to produce endorphins...and this process occurs whether your smile is genuine or forced and completely fake. In effect, you can "dose yourself" with positive emotions simply by forcing a smile, since such emotions stem from endorphins and other neurochemicals. Similarly, you can exert control over your heart rate by breathing slowly and deeply for a few minutes.
Omniverse wrote:...people are just denying the existence of my own inner light and expecting me to live by the standard of words alone.
Because you haven't proven its existence.
Omniverse wrote:Words themselves possess no power in my life to give my life any real joy, good value, etc.
Because you are denying the neurological facts that you are capable of transforming those positive words and thoughts into actual positive emotions...but it requires work. Happiness is not something that happens to you; it's a state of mind that you choose. It takes practice.
Omniverse wrote:...value judgments are just words...
Emotions are value judgments too. If they weren't, humanity would not be distinct from other mammals; we would be biological machines with no autonomy, acting purely on instinct. For example, if you are physically hurt, and the doctor treating you causes you pain during treatment, do you become angry and bite him? No, because you are able to override your instinctive anger and fear at someone causing you pain with your ability to reason that the treatment is necessary and the pain is temporary. But a dog can't reason, and will bite to stop the person causing the pain. Both the instinctive emotions AND the reasoned thoughts are value judgments.
Omniverse wrote:I would call my values the consciousness based values since they are values that focus on our own inner conscious light and darkness rather than just judgments (words) alone. These values focus on what it is like rather than what we judge. For example, what it's like to see the color red is not a matter of value judgment. It is a matter of consciousness.
Nonsense. First, all values are consciousness-based; if you lacked consciousness, you would be unable to formulate values. Second, "what it is like" is a value judgment, since no two people experience the same thing in the same way. "What it's like to see the color red" is a value judgment based on your knowledge, experience, and memories. If the color red prompts negative connotations for you, then your "what it's like" will be completely different from the person who associates red with positive things. Neither of you is wrong, because both of you are making subjective value judgments about the color red.
Omniverse wrote:Consciousness is everything to our human existence and shouldn't be ignored. If it weren't for consciousness, then we would all be dead.
This is completely wrong. Are you consciously aware of yourself and your surroundings when you're asleep? No. But you're still alive.
Omniverse wrote:As a matter of fact, we would not be able to perceive any qualities in our lives without it.
Exactly. But biochemical emotions are only one part of consciousness. The ability to reason means that you can perceive and judge whether something is "good" or "bad" regardless of your emotional state. Further, your emotional judgment about something is not always in agreement with your reasoned judgment. Example: I dislike broccoli (emotional judgment of "bad value"), but I freely admit it's a nutritious vegetable (reasoned judgment of "good value"). The ability to separate the two allows me to override my emotional judgment and, in keeping with my reasoned judgment, find recipes that include broccoli that I will enjoy, like a julienned broccoli stem slaw (delicious) or steamed florets with a sweet and salty sauce (because both "sweet" and "salt" reduce the perception of "bitter").
Omniverse wrote:So, what it all comes down to here is what it's like to judge your life as something good and beautiful. Not a simple matter of just judging your life as something good and beautiful.
These two statements describe the same thing. When you judge something, you are judging "what it's like."
Omniverse wrote:What I was trying to do here with my whole idea is to present it in such a way that would hopefully convince others so that they would understand my need as a real need and no longer dismiss it as fantasy. There are many mysterious about consciousness that we have yet to know and perhaps my idea is a mystery that I have figured out from personal experience.
Again, you lack knowledge of neurology, psychology, and philosophy. Your idea is a personal hypothesis for which you've presented no evidence...except your own anecdotal narrative.
Omniverse wrote:This inner voice would not be a thought. Like I said, these are values that go beyond our thoughts.
So this is merely dualism described in a different way. Your premise is that there is something so special and precious about extreme emotions that they can't possible exist within or be generated by the brain. Neurology would beg to differ.
Omniverse wrote:Now, if you were in a situation where you had mixed emotions, then you would be perceiving both good and bad value at the same time.
I tentatively agree, if you mean a situation like being angry at someone you love. However, such mixed emotions create a cognitive dissonance that requires a reasoned judgment to untangle. In a like manner, I can use my reasoned judgment to override my emotional judgment, instead of just instinctively reacting to my emotional judgment. How? By analyzing the emotion relative to its cause and determining whether the emotion can be justified...or whether it's an overreaction based on instinct or neurochemical dysfunction.

For example, a few weeks ago, I left my house to do some errands. Driving down my driveway, I noticed I was feeling extremely irritated. So I stopped and analyzed the emotion. Did I have a valid reason to feel irritated? I couldn't think of any situation in my life that had caused it. Was it simply the result of being physical uncomfortable? Yep. I was hungry and it was affecting my mood, making me "hangry." Had I not analyzed the irritability, I probably would have instinctively acted on the feeling, feeding it until it blew out of all proportion, which would have been incredibly stupid, given that I was driving. But I did analyze it, and ended up going back in the house for a quick snack of peanut butter on whole grain crackers. Then, I was able to do my errands with a smile.
Omniverse wrote:So, the fact that these miserable genius artists still saw their lives and art as beautiful means they would have to have had some degree of positive emotion mixed in. Otherwise, they would just be deluding themselves.
Do you have any idea how valuable a skill is the human ability for self-delusion? Within reason, that is. An example I lifted from a Heinlein novel...a human infant is, on the face of things, a completely useless organism. It cannot care for itself, or even articulate its needs clearly. It is an investment that requires a {!#%@} of time, energy, money, and sacrifice on the part of its parents. There are no tangible short-term results, and the long-term results do not return the time, energy, money, and sacrifice spent; they are also intangible. Yet its parents will willingly lose sleep and alter their entire lives to focus on caring for and raising that infant to become a self-sufficient adult. In this, we are completely deluded, because biology pushes us to pass on our genes...that is the tangible result. And we delude ourselves that this is not only a necessity, but also a happiness.

Please note that I am not saying I regret having and raising my daughter. Quite the contrary: I'm just as deluded as every other parent. My daughter is more intelligent, empathetic, beautiful, and capable than anyone else's children...thanks to the time, energy, money, and sacrifice on my part. See what I mean? It's playing god, which is delusional. But even recognizing and admitting my own delusions does not change my opinion on the matter, because it's a necessary delusion. Parents who don't delude themselves end up not spending the time, energy, money, and sacrifice, because without the delusion, they are incapable of seeing value in their children.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:05 pm

Dude, you need to get out some. Go see a movie. Pee on a cop car. Attack a random ice cream truck driver.
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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:14 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Attack a random ice cream truck driver.
They should be attacked for playing that damn song over and over again. Sheesh. I much preferred the ones from my childhood. They were called "Ding Dong Carts," and only rang a loud bell periodically. These modern ones torture you with "Turkey in the Straw." :x
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:36 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Attack a random ice cream truck driver.
They should be attacked for playing that damn song over and over again. Sheesh. I much preferred the ones from my childhood. They were called "Ding Dong Carts," and only rang a loud bell periodically. These modern ones torture you with "Turkey in the Straw." :x

I happened to stroll past one with a double-barrel shotgun on my shoulder a few days ago. :dv:
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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:00 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Attack a random ice cream truck driver.
They should be attacked for playing that damn song over and over again. Sheesh. I much preferred the ones from my childhood. They were called "Ding Dong Carts," and only rang a loud bell periodically. These modern ones torture you with "Turkey in the Straw." :x

I happened to stroll past one with a double-barrel shotgun on my shoulder a few days ago. :dv:


I sense hostility. I think I may have an undiscovered hostility sensor.
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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:33 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Attack a random ice cream truck driver.
They should be attacked for playing that damn song over and over again. Sheesh. I much preferred the ones from my childhood. They were called "Ding Dong Carts," and only rang a loud bell periodically. These modern ones torture you with "Turkey in the Straw." :x

I happened to stroll past one with a double-barrel shotgun on my shoulder a few days ago. :dv:


I sense hostility. I think I may have an undiscovered hostility sensor.

It's okay, ♫That's one body that will never be found.♫
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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Gord » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:45 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Attack a random ice cream truck driver.
They should be attacked for playing that damn song over and over again. Sheesh. I much preferred the ones from my childhood. They were called "Ding Dong Carts," and only rang a loud bell periodically. These modern ones torture you with "Turkey in the Straw." :x

I happened to stroll past one with a double-barrel shotgun on my shoulder a few days ago. :dv:

I sense hostility. I think I may have an undiscovered hostility sensor.

It's okay, ♫That's one body that will never be found.♫

I'd be hostile too if I discovered a random ice cream truck with a double-barrel shotgun while I was out for a stroll on my shoulder.
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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:01 am

Why would you stroll on your shoulder?
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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Gord » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:29 am

Because my feet hurt and my strolling on my head would be silly.
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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Omniverse » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:30 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:Second, "what it is like" is a value judgment, since no two people experience the same thing in the same way. "What it's like to see the color red" is a value judgment based on your knowledge, experience, and memories. If the color red prompts negative connotations for you, then your "what it's like" will be completely different from the person who associates red with positive things. Neither of you is wrong, because both of you are making subjective value judgments about the color red.


I will just go ahead and address this for now as well as another point you've made. I will address this point and another one below. When I said what it's like to see the color red, I was not talking about any positive or negative connotations. A blind person who has never seen the color red would not know what it's like to see red no matter how hard you describe to him what it's like to see red. Let's pretend for a moment that seeing the color red was sheer goodness and beauty itself, then this would be a consciousness based value since it is beauty and goodness that goes beyond words (our thought based value judgments).

Emotions are value judgments too. If they weren't, humanity would not be distinct from other mammals; we would be biological machines with no autonomy, acting purely on instinct. For example, if you are physically hurt, and the doctor treating you causes you pain during treatment, do you become angry and bite him? No, because you are able to override your instinctive anger and fear at someone causing you pain with your ability to reason that the treatment is necessary and the pain is temporary. But a dog can't reason, and will bite to stop the person causing the pain. Both the instinctive emotions AND the reasoned thoughts are value judgments.


But it is only our positive emotions which can be the good emotional value judgments and our negative emotions which can be the bad emotional value judgments. That is my whole theory. These emotional value judgments are what I call the consciousness based values. So, during those horrible nightmare states I've mentioned in my previous packet, I would have experienced the worst possible emotional value judgments of my life. A good emotional value judgment (a positive emotion) would have to be pure goodness itself. It would have to be an intrinsic (objective) goodness. The same idea applies to negative emotions.

Is my theory already true? You said that our emotions are what make our lives matter and that, without emotions, nothing could matter to us. This means that our positive emotions make our lives matter to us in good ways while our negative emotions make our lives matter to us in bad ways. So, those miserable and genius artists would have to be deluding themselves if they thought their lives and art mattered to them in beautiful and good ways if they had no positive emotion at all. That gets to the point you make below right here:

Do you have any idea how valuable a skill is the human ability for self-delusion? Within reason, that is. An example I lifted from a Heinlein novel...a human infant is, on the face of things, a completely useless organism. It cannot care for itself, or even articulate its needs clearly. It is an investment that requires a {!#%@} of time, energy, money, and sacrifice on the part of its parents. There are no tangible short-term results, and the long-term results do not return the time, energy, money, and sacrifice spent; they are also intangible. Yet its parents will willingly lose sleep and alter their entire lives to focus on caring for and raising that infant to become a self-sufficient adult. In this, we are completely deluded, because biology pushes us to pass on our genes...that is the tangible result. And we delude ourselves that this is not only a necessity, but also a happiness.

Please note that I am not saying I regret having and raising my daughter. Quite the contrary: I'm just as deluded as every other parent. My daughter is more intelligent, empathetic, beautiful, and capable than anyone else's children...thanks to the time, energy, money, and sacrifice on my part. See what I mean? It's playing god, which is delusional. But even recognizing and admitting my own delusions does not change my opinion on the matter, because it's a necessary delusion. Parents who don't delude themselves end up not spending the time, energy, money, and sacrifice, because without the delusion, they are incapable of seeing value in their children.


I, myself, do not have this delusional mechanism and I am beyond it when it comes to realizing what gives my life real good value, joy, happiness, beauty, and worth. I do not fall for it, live by it, and I clearly recognize my positive emotions as being my own inner light since they are what make things and situations matter to me in good ways. With all of this being said, I think it is quite obvious that my whole idea/theory is already known. For me to live my life by the delusion I've talked about would be no different than an atheist living his life serving a god. To me, there is simply no reason at all and neither can I make myself compose or do my hobbies deluding myself into thinking it somehow matters to me in good and beautiful ways in the absence of my positive emotions. So, according to my non deluded standard, good value would have to be defined as our positive emotions.

They would be like an inner light (an intrinsic goodness). But, according to the deluded standard of others, good value, beauty, and worth would have to be defined as living one's life miserable and just deluding his/herself into thinking it is the good and worthwhile life. You told me earlier that emotions allow us to experience value to make our lives matter to us in good or bad ways. Based on this and based upon my own non deluded definition of a good life, experiencing value via our emotions would be a higher and transcended perception of value in our lives while our delusional mechanism alone only allows us to simply acknowledge the good and bad value that things and situations hold. As you can see here, it is like I am trying to awaken humanity to their positive emotions (higher component) rather than adhering to this delusional mechanism. It's like an atheist trying to awaken deluded religious people.

Lastly, now that I have realized the truth, I now know that there is no reason to live in the absence of my positive emotions. If it were a life of misery, then it would literally be the worst life. I would not delude myself and continue on in such a life thinking and believing it to be a good, beautiful, and worthwhile life when it never was. I am awakened to the truth and I would personally much rather die than to live a life without my inner light (positive emotions). You said that we are wired for survival to continue on in life anyway and that this is a delusional mechanism that makes us think our lives matter to us in good and beautiful ways without our positive emotions when that was never true.

I'm sorry, but, like I said, I am beyond that mechanism. I am on a higher level. It's as though I am living by the standard of god's inner light, so to speak, rather than a standard of a mere biological machine dragging on and doing things that just have to be done anyway in life. If my standard does not get met, then, like I said, I am giving up since I know that my standard is the real one while the standards of others are nothing, no real way to live or be an artist, and delusional. I am doing just fine now though since I have my positive emotions fully recovered back to me again.

Other Person's Response: You just need to strengthen and develop your character. Then you can find every reason to live despite any misery or hopelessness. With such strength of character, then you can be, in a way, like those famous and genius artists!

My Reply: My values are the higher values founded upon truth. Why would I even waste my time over this deluded nonsense? What a joke this is! Here all along I thought that maybe I was wrong and that these miserable genius artists weren't deluding themselves. I thought that perhaps there was some form of inner light that I have yet to obtain and that all the joys and beauty I have experienced through my positive emotions could somehow take the form of a mindset alone without the need for the positive emotions. Seeing that isn't the case, then this is all {!#%@} BS and a waste of my time! Humanity is just a waste of biological machines living by a {!#%@} delusional standard. NO strength of character can ever replace the inner light (positive emotions). NOTHING can! It would be, in a way, like trying to replace the holy and divine light of god in your life. NOTHING can replace his holy light!

Other Person's Response: I think there is something wrong with you if you don't have that deluding mechanism.

My Reply: I don't think so. Is there something wrong with the atheist who doesn't believe in false gods and realizes that it is just a waste of time to adhere his life to the serving of one of these false gods? There's just no way. The atheist simply knows the truth is all and wishes to live his life by values founded upon truth. There are two types of values. The first type would be the value judgments that come about through our thoughts. These are just words, but they are still vital so that we can make wise decisions. However, these words do not hold the power of the inner light or darkness. Our positive emotions are like the breath of god or the divine cosmos, so to speak, since they are what give our lives the true good value and beauty. That is how I redefine goodness and beauty. But, at the same time, I would still, of course, make wise decisions anyway regardless of my emotional state since I am not stupid. I do not go out and do reckless things just because I feel very excited.

Other Person's Response: But wouldn't you rather prefer to live than to die without your inner light? After all, life is something precious. Think of the famous quote by Rocky Balboa. He encourages pushing forward in life even when things aren't happy. He says this is how winning is done. So, why don't you be a winner and make the best of your life even during the unhappy moments?

My Reply: The idea alone of me living is nothing important. What's important is my inner light to make living something truly beautiful, good, and worthwhile. Like I said, I would much rather die than to live a life without it. So, Rocky is wrong with his famous quote and it would instead be Tommy Gun in that Rocky movie who would be correct. Tommy advocates the idea of being the happy boxer who takes down opponents. But Rocky comes along and says that it's not about the happiness and that it's instead about fighting despite the misery and unhappiness (i.e. "It's not about how hard you can hit. It's about how much of a hit you can take and keep on going"). I am being very serious here. The inner light is the most profoundly beautiful and joyful experience and no power in this universe compares to it. I mean, sure, during my worst miserable moments, I wouldn't just give up on life right then and there. That is why I have chosen to remain in this life and to get the help I needed. But the thing is, I will not live my life like this since it is no way to live or be an artist.

Other Person's Response: Then I will give you an example of another movie besides Rocky. It would be Star Trek. I think you should be like Spok. He purges all emotions and has a purely rational mindset. Living your life by rational based values is definitely the way to go because, not only would it not be a self defeating philosophy, but will get you far and make you very successful in life. It will make you a successful composer as well.

My Reply: Spok wouldn't be rational then. If he wishes to live his life by the truth rather than delusion, then he would come to realize that our positive emotions are the inner light. He would realize that this is the true goodness and beauty to live by.

Other Person's Response: I find this downright insulting!

My Reply: It doesn't matter how much it insults or offends you or anyone else. My inner light is being dismissed and left out of the picture all thanks to the delusional advice of others. They would recommend making the best of my life and composing and that this is somehow a beautiful way to live and compose even if I had to live most or my entire life in a state of misery and/or unhappiness.

Other Person's Response: You are an arrogant ass! Just who do you think you are to insult the greatest artists of all time and say that their endeavors were no way to live and be an artist?

My Reply: Your attitude and question makes no sense at all. If there was a certain truth and people realized it, then would it make any sense for them to get angry and name call an individual who realizes such truth and does not wish to adhere his life to a delusional lifestyle/standard? It would be no different than if I found the cure for cancer, people knew this, and they still got angry at me because I wanted to live a life where I could cure myself of cancer as opposed to living a cancerous life where I delude myself into thinking that there is no cure. This cancer analogy might not be perfect, but it gets my point across.

*One last thing here. This is an important note to Nikki Nyx. Could you present to me the articles/evidence that supports the idea that these miserable artists were deluding themselves and that it is truly our positive emotions that make our lives matter to us in good and beautiful ways?*
Last edited by Omniverse on Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:51 pm, edited 26 times in total.

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Matt MVS7 Trolling Thread No8

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:37 am

Omniverse AKA Matt MVS7 AKA Kamil wrote: I, myself, do not have this delusional mechanism and I am beyond it.
Omniverse AKA Matt MVS7 AKA Kamil wrote:I have this highly gifted composing talent due to my autism....
Omniverse AKA Matt MVS7 AKA Kamil in February 2017 wrote:I am finally out of this traumatic experience, I finally have my happiness and motivation back to me again, and I do not need any medication.

https://zeldadungeon.net/forum/threads/ ... ing.58727/

You really are simply terrible at trolling...... :lol:

Another compositions from Matt MSV7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFmrzRUojS0

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:07 pm

Omniverse wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Second, "what it is like" is a value judgment, since no two people experience the same thing in the same way. "What it's like to see the color red" is a value judgment based on your knowledge, experience, and memories. If the color red prompts negative connotations for you, then your "what it's like" will be completely different from the person who associates red with positive things. Neither of you is wrong, because both of you are making subjective value judgments about the color red.
When I said what it's like to see the color red, I was not talking about any positive or negative connotations.
Doesn't matter. You can't separate your "what it's like" to see red from those connotations; they occur together in your brain.

Omniverse wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Emotions are value judgments too. If they weren't, humanity would not be distinct from other mammals; we would be biological machines with no autonomy, acting purely on instinct. For example, if you are physically hurt, and the doctor treating you causes you pain during treatment, do you become angry and bite him? No, because you are able to override your instinctive anger and fear at someone causing you pain with your ability to reason that the treatment is necessary and the pain is temporary. But a dog can't reason, and will bite to stop the person causing the pain. Both the instinctive emotions AND the reasoned thoughts are value judgments.
But it is only our positive emotions which can be the good emotional value judgments and our negative emotions which can be the bad emotional value judgments. That is my whole theory. These emotional value judgments are what I call the consciousness based values.
That's backwards. Emotional value judgments are unconscious and instinctive; reasoned value judgments are consciousness-based.

Omniverse wrote:Is my theory already true? You said that our emotions are what make our lives matter and that, without emotions, nothing could matter to us.
A person without emotions would be apathetic, meaning that events in his life would not garner either a positive or a negative emotional reaction. However, my statement does NOT mean that emotions are the sole thing necessary for perceiving quality...unless you're an immature child. Until the prefrontal cortex matures in the mid-20s, emotions prompt value judgements, but subsequent to that, emotions are tempered by the ability to reason. If this were not true, then every human adult would act in accordance with their emotions, indulging in thoughtless and self-destructive behavior without a thought for the consequences. Example: Your emotions tell you to go ahead and have unprotected sex, because you're horny now. Your reasoning tells you it's a bad idea that could result in a pregnancy or STDs. If you listened solely to your emotions, you'd ignore the potential consequences, which would be immature.

Omniverse wrote:This means that our positive emotions make our lives matter to us in good ways while our negative emotions make our lives matter to us in bad ways. So, those miserable and genius artists would have to be deluding themselves if they thought their lives and art mattered to them in beautiful and good ways if they had no positive emotion at all.
Your assumption that people with depression or dysthymia never feel positive emotions is unfounded. The creative process allows the depressed artist to release negative emotions, which could obviously cause him to feel positive emotions such as:
• relief that the negative emotion has been articulated and released,
• pride in his creative accomplishment,
• happiness that his skill allows him to express negative emotions without harming anyone...
...to name a few. Personally, I find that my depressed moods are MORE conducive to creativity than my positive moods, and I experience all those emotions I named when I've finished a creative endeavor.

Omniverse wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Do you have any idea how valuable a skill is the human ability for self-delusion? Within reason, that is.
I, myself, do not have this delusional mechanism
Yes, you do. All humans do. If we lacked it, we would not be intellectually-capable of dealing with the human condition.

Omniverse wrote:and I am beyond it when it comes to realizing what gives my life real good value, joy, happiness, beauty, and worth. I do not fall for it, live by it, and I clearly recognize my positive emotions as being my own inner light since they are what make things and situations matter to me in good ways.
Again, you're saying that emotions are the only thing that matter for adults, and you're wrong. Only children lack the reasoning ability that tempers emotion...which is why they require supervision, discipline, and education. A child will run out into the road after a soccer ball with no reasoned judgment, but only the instinctive emotional wanting of his soccer ball. A child will play with matches with no reasoned judgment.

Omniverse wrote:With all of this being said, I think it is quite obvious that my whole idea/theory is already known.
Known? Adults who live by emotion alone are either immature or have an addiction. The gambler, for example, will lose his life savings, pension, home, etc. because of his addiction...he's following his emotions with no reasoned judgment. The myriad overly-offended people are following their emotions with no reasoned judgment. If you are anhedonic, then your perception would be that only emotions make life matter, except you're discounting the necessity of reasoned judgment required to be a functioning adult.

Omniverse wrote:For me to live my life by the delusion I've talked about would be no different than an atheist living his life serving a god. To me, there is simply no reason at all and neither can I make myself compose or do my hobbies deluding myself into thinking it somehow matters to me in good and beautiful ways in the absence of my positive emotions. So, according to my non deluded standard, good value would have to be defined as our positive emotions.
First, that's a terrible analogy. Second, your lack of working toward your own healing does not mean that your "theory" is applicable to anyone except yourself. You're unable to be objective about the topic, since you've denied valid scientific evidence multiple times in favor of your self-aggrandizing belief that you've discovered some humanity-encompassing theory of emotion, as evidenced by this:
Omniverse wrote:As you can see here, it is like I am trying to awaken humanity to their positive emotions
...and this:
Omniverse wrote:I am on a higher level.
Read some neurology and learn how the human brain works. And get a therapist.

Omniverse wrote:You said that we are wired for survival to continue on in life anyway and that this is a delusional mechanism that makes us think our lives matter to us in good and beautiful ways without our positive emotions when that was never true.
I never said this. I may have said that we are "wired for survival," but I never said there is a "delusional mechanism" that makes us believe our lives matter in the absence of emotion. Stop putting words in my mouth.

And I'm done. Believe whatever the {!#%@} you want. But you'll not prove your theory, since it's based solely on your personal experience. Frankly, it reads like you think you're the sane one in a world of crazy people, and that's delusional taken to the extreme.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Omniverse » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:38 pm

(post deleted)
Last edited by Omniverse on Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Omniverse » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:40 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Omniverse wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Second, "what it is like" is a value judgment, since no two people experience the same thing in the same way. "What it's like to see the color red" is a value judgment based on your knowledge, experience, and memories. If the color red prompts negative connotations for you, then your "what it's like" will be completely different from the person who associates red with positive things. Neither of you is wrong, because both of you are making subjective value judgments about the color red.
When I said what it's like to see the color red, I was not talking about any positive or negative connotations.
Doesn't matter. You can't separate your "what it's like" to see red from those connotations; they occur together in your brain.

Omniverse wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Emotions are value judgments too. If they weren't, humanity would not be distinct from other mammals; we would be biological machines with no autonomy, acting purely on instinct. For example, if you are physically hurt, and the doctor treating you causes you pain during treatment, do you become angry and bite him? No, because you are able to override your instinctive anger and fear at someone causing you pain with your ability to reason that the treatment is necessary and the pain is temporary. But a dog can't reason, and will bite to stop the person causing the pain. Both the instinctive emotions AND the reasoned thoughts are value judgments.
But it is only our positive emotions which can be the good emotional value judgments and our negative emotions which can be the bad emotional value judgments. That is my whole theory. These emotional value judgments are what I call the consciousness based values.
That's backwards. Emotional value judgments are unconscious and instinctive; reasoned value judgments are consciousness-based.

Omniverse wrote:Is my theory already true? You said that our emotions are what make our lives matter and that, without emotions, nothing could matter to us.
A person without emotions would be apathetic, meaning that events in his life would not garner either a positive or a negative emotional reaction. However, my statement does NOT mean that emotions are the sole thing necessary for perceiving quality...unless you're an immature child. Until the prefrontal cortex matures in the mid-20s, emotions prompt value judgements, but subsequent to that, emotions are tempered by the ability to reason. If this were not true, then every human adult would act in accordance with their emotions, indulging in thoughtless and self-destructive behavior without a thought for the consequences. Example: Your emotions tell you to go ahead and have unprotected sex, because you're horny now. Your reasoning tells you it's a bad idea that could result in a pregnancy or STDs. If you listened solely to your emotions, you'd ignore the potential consequences, which would be immature.

Omniverse wrote:This means that our positive emotions make our lives matter to us in good ways while our negative emotions make our lives matter to us in bad ways. So, those miserable and genius artists would have to be deluding themselves if they thought their lives and art mattered to them in beautiful and good ways if they had no positive emotion at all.
Your assumption that people with depression or dysthymia never feel positive emotions is unfounded. The creative process allows the depressed artist to release negative emotions, which could obviously cause him to feel positive emotions such as:
• relief that the negative emotion has been articulated and released,
• pride in his creative accomplishment,
• happiness that his skill allows him to express negative emotions without harming anyone...
...to name a few. Personally, I find that my depressed moods are MORE conducive to creativity than my positive moods, and I experience all those emotions I named when I've finished a creative endeavor.

Omniverse wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Do you have any idea how valuable a skill is the human ability for self-delusion? Within reason, that is.
I, myself, do not have this delusional mechanism
Yes, you do. All humans do. If we lacked it, we would not be intellectually-capable of dealing with the human condition.

Omniverse wrote:and I am beyond it when it comes to realizing what gives my life real good value, joy, happiness, beauty, and worth. I do not fall for it, live by it, and I clearly recognize my positive emotions as being my own inner light since they are what make things and situations matter to me in good ways.
Again, you're saying that emotions are the only thing that matter for adults, and you're wrong. Only children lack the reasoning ability that tempers emotion...which is why they require supervision, discipline, and education. A child will run out into the road after a soccer ball with no reasoned judgment, but only the instinctive emotional wanting of his soccer ball. A child will play with matches with no reasoned judgment.

Omniverse wrote:With all of this being said, I think it is quite obvious that my whole idea/theory is already known.
Known? Adults who live by emotion alone are either immature or have an addiction. The gambler, for example, will lose his life savings, pension, home, etc. because of his addiction...he's following his emotions with no reasoned judgment. The myriad overly-offended people are following their emotions with no reasoned judgment. If you are anhedonic, then your perception would be that only emotions make life matter, except you're discounting the necessity of reasoned judgment required to be a functioning adult.

Omniverse wrote:For me to live my life by the delusion I've talked about would be no different than an atheist living his life serving a god. To me, there is simply no reason at all and neither can I make myself compose or do my hobbies deluding myself into thinking it somehow matters to me in good and beautiful ways in the absence of my positive emotions. So, according to my non deluded standard, good value would have to be defined as our positive emotions.
First, that's a terrible analogy. Second, your lack of working toward your own healing does not mean that your "theory" is applicable to anyone except yourself. You're unable to be objective about the topic, since you've denied valid scientific evidence multiple times in favor of your self-aggrandizing belief that you've discovered some humanity-encompassing theory of emotion, as evidenced by this:
Omniverse wrote:As you can see here, it is like I am trying to awaken humanity to their positive emotions
...and this:
Omniverse wrote:I am on a higher level.
Read some neurology and learn how the human brain works. And get a therapist.

Omniverse wrote:You said that we are wired for survival to continue on in life anyway and that this is a delusional mechanism that makes us think our lives matter to us in good and beautiful ways without our positive emotions when that was never true.
I never said this. I may have said that we are "wired for survival," but I never said there is a "delusional mechanism" that makes us believe our lives matter in the absence of emotion. Stop putting words in my mouth.

And I'm done. Believe whatever the {!#%@} you want. But you'll not prove your theory, since it's based solely on your personal experience. Frankly, it reads like you think you're the sane one in a world of crazy people, and that's delusional taken to the extreme.


I see that you are done with me. So, I will just post this response to you for others to carry on if they want to. I have never dismissed value judgments. I said they were still vital. I would still make wise decisions regardless of how I felt and I would still choose to get the help I needed during my miserable moments. I have, as a matter of fact, chosen to get help on multiple occasions during my miserable moments. All I am saying here is that a life without positive emotions is simply no way to live or be an artist and that it is our positive emotions which are the inner light, so to speak, that we need. Lastly, you told me earlier that we do have this delusional mechanism which deludes us into thinking our lives matter to us in good and beautiful ways during our feelings of hopelessness and misery. You explained it to me in regards to those miserable artists. So, I am just confused here.

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:54 pm

Omniverse wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Omniverse wrote:You said that we are wired for survival to continue on in life anyway and that this is a delusional mechanism that makes us think our lives matter to us in good and beautiful ways without our positive emotions when that was never true.
I never said this. I may have said that we are "wired for survival," but I never said there is a "delusional mechanism" that makes us believe our lives matter in the absence of emotion. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Lastly, you told me earlier that we do have this delusional mechanism which deludes us into thinking our lives matter to us in good and beautiful ways during our feelings of hopelessness and misery. You explained it to me in regards to those miserable artists. So, I am just confused here.
I did not say that those artists never experienced positive emotions. You did.

And you misinterpreted and misunderstood my statement. Let me clarify it. The survival mechanism counters the emotional impetus to escape current suffering by any means possible. The survival mechanism provides our reasoned judgment with motivation to justify denying that escape, because reasoned judgment concludes that emotions are temporary states of mind that change frequently, and we merely need to either weather the storm or, if possible, change the negative emotion through reasoning and behavior that neuroscience has proven is effective, like the forced smile technique I described.

Here's an analogy...
When I'm having a "flare day" and my pain level is extremely high, I feel an emotional need to escape my suffering by any means possible. However, my instinct to survive kicks in and overrides that unthinking emotion, allowing me to make the reasoned judgment that my high pain level is temporary. Secure in this knowledge, which experience has proven to be factual, I can deny my emotional need without cognitive dissonance in favor of a reasoned response to my suffering...indulging in self-care techniques which, again, experience has proven to be successful.

In the midst of the suffering, my emotions might deem that my reasoned judgment is delusional...but it's not, because my reasoned judgment is in line with reality, while my emotions alone are unable to make any judgment except as regards my immediate situation. This process is not delusional. It would be more accurate to say that my emotional reaction is delusional, while my reasoned judgment is sound.

In fact, since I have practiced this process countless times over the past 18 years, my emotional need to escape suffering has been reduced to the point where my reasoned judgment kicks in automatically. Again, this is not delusional on my part. I have reprogrammed my brain via neural plasticity to respond to my chronic pain with reason, rather than unthinking emotion. Similarly, I know that periods of depression are also temporary so, instead of spiraling down into a cycle of emotional self-pity, I'm able to make that same reasoned judgment and actively treat my depression rather than allowing it to control.

However, you must understand that reaching this state of control takes a lot of hard work, because you are literally forcing your brain to create new pathways, and that takes time and practice. Now, how can you possibly deem the process of emotional self-regulation "delusional" when it has resulted in my brain producing more "happiness" neurochemicals? My emotions are genuine, not delusional.

Note: My comments here include anecdotal narrative, but are based on the process of emotional self-regulation, a technique for which I can show empirical evidence. A brief explanation...
Emotional self-regulation or regulation of emotion is the ability to respond to the ongoing demands of experience with the range of emotions in a manner that is socially tolerable and sufficiently flexible to permit spontaneous reactions as well as the ability to delay spontaneous reactions as needed.1 It can also be defined as extrinsic and intrinsic processes responsible for monitoring, evaluating, and modifying emotional reactions.2

Emotional regulation is a complex process that involves initiating, inhibiting, or modulating one's state or behavior in a given situation – for example the subjective experience (feelings), cognitive responses (thoughts), emotion-related physiological responses (for example heart rate or hormonal activity), and emotion-related behavior (bodily actions or expressions).

The process model of emotion regulation is based upon the modal model of emotion. The modal model of emotion suggests that the emotion generation process occurs in a particular sequence over time. This sequence occurs as follows:
1. Situation: the sequence begins with a situation (real or imagined) that is emotionally relevant.
2. Attention: attention is directed towards the emotional situation.
3. Appraisal: the emotional situation is evaluated and interpreted.
4. Response: an emotional response is generated, giving rise to loosely coordinated changes in experiential, behavioral, and physiological response systems.
Because an emotional response (4.) can cause changes to a situation (1.), this model involves a feedback loop from (4.) Response to (1.) Situation. This feedback loop suggests that the emotion generation process can occur recursively, is ongoing, and dynamic.3

The process model contends that each of these four points in the emotion generation process can be subjected to regulation. From this conceptualization, the process model posits five different families of emotion regulation that correspond to the regulation of a particular point in the emotion generation process. They occur in the following order:
1. Situation selection
2. Situation modification
3. Attentional deployment
4. Cognitive change
5. Response modulation.4

The process model also divides these emotion regulation strategies into two categories: antecedent-focused and response-focused. Antecedent-focused strategies (i.e., situation selection, situation modification, attentional deployment, and cognitive change) occur before an emotional response is fully generated. Response-focused strategies (i.e., response modulation) occur after an emotional response is fully generated.5

1. Cole, P. M., Michel, M. K., & Teti, L. O. (1994). The development of emotion regulation and dysregulation: A clinical perspective. (Vol. 59, pp. 73-100). Wiley-Blackwell. LINK
2. Thompson, R. A. (1994). "Emotion regulation: a theme in search of definition". Monographs for the Society for Research in Child Development. 59: 25–52. LINK
3. Gross, J. J. & Thompson, R. A. (2007). Emotion regulation: Conceptual foundations. In J. J. Gross (Ed.), Handbook of Emotion Regulation (pp. 3-24). New York: Guilford Press.
4. Gross, J. J. (1998). "The emerging field of emotion regulation: An integrative review". Review of General Psychology. 2: 271–299. LINK
5. Gross, J. J. (1998). "Antecedent- and response-focused emotion regulation: Divergent consequences for experience, expression, and physiology". Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. 74: 224–237. LINK
The article goes on to describe the above mentioned strategies, discuss how emotional self-regulation increases and becomes more sophisticated during development, and provide neurological, psychological, and sociological perspectives.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Omniverse » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:19 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Omniverse wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Omniverse wrote:You said that we are wired for survival to continue on in life anyway and that this is a delusional mechanism that makes us think our lives matter to us in good and beautiful ways without our positive emotions when that was never true.
I never said this. I may have said that we are "wired for survival," but I never said there is a "delusional mechanism" that makes us believe our lives matter in the absence of emotion. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Lastly, you told me earlier that we do have this delusional mechanism which deludes us into thinking our lives matter to us in good and beautiful ways during our feelings of hopelessness and misery. You explained it to me in regards to those miserable artists. So, I am just confused here.
I did not say that those artists never experienced positive emotions. You did.

And you misinterpreted and misunderstood my statement. Let me clarify it. The survival mechanism counters the emotional impetus to escape current suffering by any means possible. The survival mechanism provides our reasoned judgment with motivation to justify denying that escape, because reasoned judgment concludes that emotions are temporary states of mind that change frequently, and we merely need to either weather the storm or, if possible, change the negative emotion through reasoning and behavior that neuroscience has proven is effective, like the forced smile technique I described.

Here's an analogy...
When I'm having a "flare day" and my pain level is extremely high, I feel an emotional need to escape my suffering by any means possible. However, my instinct to survive kicks in and overrides that unthinking emotion, allowing me to make the reasoned judgment that my high pain level is temporary. Secure in this knowledge, which experience has proven to be factual, I can deny my emotional need without cognitive dissonance in favor of a reasoned response to my suffering...indulging in self-care techniques which, again, experience has proven to be successful.

In the midst of the suffering, my emotions might deem that my reasoned judgment is delusional...but it's not, because my reasoned judgment is in line with reality, while my emotions alone are unable to make any judgment except as regards my immediate situation. This process is not delusional. It would be more accurate to say that my emotional reaction is delusional, while my reasoned judgment is sound.

In fact, since I have practiced this process countless times over the past 18 years, my emotional need to escape suffering has been reduced to the point where my reasoned judgment kicks in automatically. Again, this is not delusional on my part. I have reprogrammed my brain via neural plasticity to respond to my chronic pain with reason, rather than unthinking emotion. Similarly, I know that periods of depression are also temporary so, instead of spiraling down into a cycle of emotional self-pity, I'm able to make that same reasoned judgment and actively treat my depression rather than allowing it to control.

However, you must understand that reaching this state of control takes a lot of hard work, because you are literally forcing your brain to create new pathways, and that takes time and practice. Now, how can you possibly deem the process of emotional self-regulation "delusional" when it has resulted in my brain producing more "happiness" neurochemicals? My emotions are genuine, not delusional.

Note: My comments here include anecdotal narrative, but are based on the process of emotional self-regulation, a technique for which I can show empirical evidence. A brief explanation...
Emotional self-regulation or regulation of emotion is the ability to respond to the ongoing demands of experience with the range of emotions in a manner that is socially tolerable and sufficiently flexible to permit spontaneous reactions as well as the ability to delay spontaneous reactions as needed.1 It can also be defined as extrinsic and intrinsic processes responsible for monitoring, evaluating, and modifying emotional reactions.2

Emotional regulation is a complex process that involves initiating, inhibiting, or modulating one's state or behavior in a given situation – for example the subjective experience (feelings), cognitive responses (thoughts), emotion-related physiological responses (for example heart rate or hormonal activity), and emotion-related behavior (bodily actions or expressions).

The process model of emotion regulation is based upon the modal model of emotion. The modal model of emotion suggests that the emotion generation process occurs in a particular sequence over time. This sequence occurs as follows:
1. Situation: the sequence begins with a situation (real or imagined) that is emotionally relevant.
2. Attention: attention is directed towards the emotional situation.
3. Appraisal: the emotional situation is evaluated and interpreted.
4. Response: an emotional response is generated, giving rise to loosely coordinated changes in experiential, behavioral, and physiological response systems.
Because an emotional response (4.) can cause changes to a situation (1.), this model involves a feedback loop from (4.) Response to (1.) Situation. This feedback loop suggests that the emotion generation process can occur recursively, is ongoing, and dynamic.3

The process model contends that each of these four points in the emotion generation process can be subjected to regulation. From this conceptualization, the process model posits five different families of emotion regulation that correspond to the regulation of a particular point in the emotion generation process. They occur in the following order:
1. Situation selection
2. Situation modification
3. Attentional deployment
4. Cognitive change
5. Response modulation.4

The process model also divides these emotion regulation strategies into two categories: antecedent-focused and response-focused. Antecedent-focused strategies (i.e., situation selection, situation modification, attentional deployment, and cognitive change) occur before an emotional response is fully generated. Response-focused strategies (i.e., response modulation) occur after an emotional response is fully generated.5

1. Cole, P. M., Michel, M. K., & Teti, L. O. (1994). The development of emotion regulation and dysregulation: A clinical perspective. (Vol. 59, pp. 73-100). Wiley-Blackwell. LINK
2. Thompson, R. A. (1994). "Emotion regulation: a theme in search of definition". Monographs for the Society for Research in Child Development. 59: 25–52. LINK
3. Gross, J. J. & Thompson, R. A. (2007). Emotion regulation: Conceptual foundations. In J. J. Gross (Ed.), Handbook of Emotion Regulation (pp. 3-24). New York: Guilford Press.
4. Gross, J. J. (1998). "The emerging field of emotion regulation: An integrative review". Review of General Psychology. 2: 271–299. LINK
5. Gross, J. J. (1998). "Antecedent- and response-focused emotion regulation: Divergent consequences for experience, expression, and physiology". Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. 74: 224–237. LINK
The article goes on to describe the above mentioned strategies, discuss how emotional self-regulation increases and becomes more sophisticated during development, and provide neurological, psychological, and sociological perspectives.


Alright, I see now. But where I am getting at is that you've mentioned that there are two forms of value judgments. The first type comes about through our way of thinking and the 2nd type comes about through our emotions. We can make value judgments through our thinking regardless of how we feel. I admit, these types of value judgments are vital since they can help us make wise decisions. But these types of value judgments are no way to live or be an artist. It doesn't matter how much emotional regulation you have. You would still be living a life that is completely empty. Consider our positive emotions to be a powerful force of goodness (inner light) of the divine cosmos. They are a spoken good value judgment of a higher, transcended, beautiful, heavenly realm.

This is just an artistic metaphor. We use metaphors all the time in art and literature to convey elements of reality. But continuing on the metaphor. We need this inner light (this inner voice of god/divine cosmos). Otherwise, it is like being devoid of the holy light of god in our lives. Without his holy light, then our lives and artistic endeavors can only amount to nothing to us. So, it is the inner light we need and it is the inner darkness (negative emotions) we should avoid. Again, there are times when it is necessary to have the inner darkness such as choosing to make a wise decision anyway regardless if it made you feel horrible. But the inner darkness is, like I said, no way to live or be an artist and, of course, neither is living without emotions at all any way to live or be an artist either.
Last edited by Omniverse on Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:03 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Matt MVS7 Trolling Thread No8

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:15 am

Omniverse AKA Matt MVS7 AKA Kamil wrote: I am on a higher level.
Omniverse AKA Matt MVS7 AKA Kamil wrote:I have this highly gifted composing talent due to my autism....

So far you have claimed to suffer from autism, schizophrenia, constipation, Anhedonia, depression, .....in fact, anything that pops into your head when you are trolling. , :lol:

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:05 am

Omniverse wrote:Alright, I see now. But where I am getting at is that you've mentioned that there are two forms of value judgments. The first type comes about through our way of thinking and the 2nd type comes about through our emotions. We can make value judgments through our thinking regardless of how we feel. I admit, these types of value judgments are vital since they can help us make wise decisions. But these types of value judgments are no way to live or be an artist. It doesn't matter how much emotional regulation you have. You would still be living a life that is completely empty.
You clearly still don't get it.

Emotional self-regulation puts YOU in control of your emotions. If you wish to feel happy, you have the power to force your brain to generate the appropriate neurochemicals, creating a genuine emotion.

Omniverse wrote:Consider our positive emotions to be a powerful force of goodness (inner light) of the divine cosmos. They are a spoken good value judgment of a higher, transcended, beautiful, heavenly realm.
No. This is religious BS. Positive emotions are not an "inner light of the divine cosmos." They're the result of neurochemicals. Period. Stop indulging in magical thinking and learn some neurology.

Emotion can be considered the result of mood (the inner, subjective feelings), affect (the outer, objective manifestations of feeling), drive, and cognitive control. Research in the past several decades suggests a correlation between characteristic emotional disorders and abnormalities involving restricted neuroanatomical regions. Mood appears to be a product of the basal-limbic structures. Affect is more hemisphere influenced and the difference between nonverbal and verbal affect appears to reflect right and left hemispheric function. Drive can be considered a function of midline anterior anatomical structures while cognitive control, the ability to govern action by thought, seems to depend on frontal convexity and/or orbital frontal function. Emotion is a summation of these activities and emotional disorder may follow disturbance to any one or a combination of these separate functions. LINK
Note that "cognitive control" is considered an essential element.

Or maybe this will be easier for you to understand.
Consciousness, much like our feelings, is based on a representation of the body and how it changes when reacting to certain stimuli. Self-image would be unthinkable without this representation. I think humans have developed a self-image mainly to establish a homeostatic organism. The brain constantly needs up-to-date information on the body's state to regulate all the processes that keep it alive. This is the only way an organism can survive in an ever changing environment. Emotions alone—without conscious feelings—would not be enough. Adults would be as helpless as babies if they suddenly lost their self-image.
—Antonio R. Damasio, neurologist (David Dornsife Professor of Neuroscience at USC, Director of the Brain and Creativity Institute
Your "theory" is oversimplified and ignores relevant neurology. The reason I'm uninterested in continuing this discussion is that you refuse to even acknowledge valid scientific data, choosing to believe in your fantastic and completely unproven theory in spite of the fact that established neurology proves you wrong. Which makes you a wooist on this issue, and I have better things to do than read repetitive magical posts that discard valid science.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Omniverse » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:24 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Omniverse wrote:Alright, I see now. But where I am getting at is that you've mentioned that there are two forms of value judgments. The first type comes about through our way of thinking and the 2nd type comes about through our emotions. We can make value judgments through our thinking regardless of how we feel. I admit, these types of value judgments are vital since they can help us make wise decisions. But these types of value judgments are no way to live or be an artist. It doesn't matter how much emotional regulation you have. You would still be living a life that is completely empty.
You clearly still don't get it.

Emotional self-regulation puts YOU in control of your emotions. If you wish to feel happy, you have the power to force your brain to generate the appropriate neurochemicals, creating a genuine emotion.

Omniverse wrote:Consider our positive emotions to be a powerful force of goodness (inner light) of the divine cosmos. They are a spoken good value judgment of a higher, transcended, beautiful, heavenly realm.
No. This is religious BS. Positive emotions are not an "inner light of the divine cosmos." They're the result of neurochemicals. Period. Stop indulging in magical thinking and learn some neurology.

Emotion can be considered the result of mood (the inner, subjective feelings), affect (the outer, objective manifestations of feeling), drive, and cognitive control. Research in the past several decades suggests a correlation between characteristic emotional disorders and abnormalities involving restricted neuroanatomical regions. Mood appears to be a product of the basal-limbic structures. Affect is more hemisphere influenced and the difference between nonverbal and verbal affect appears to reflect right and left hemispheric function. Drive can be considered a function of midline anterior anatomical structures while cognitive control, the ability to govern action by thought, seems to depend on frontal convexity and/or orbital frontal function. Emotion is a summation of these activities and emotional disorder may follow disturbance to any one or a combination of these separate functions. LINK
Note that "cognitive control" is considered an essential element.

Or maybe this will be easier for you to understand.
Consciousness, much like our feelings, is based on a representation of the body and how it changes when reacting to certain stimuli. Self-image would be unthinkable without this representation. I think humans have developed a self-image mainly to establish a homeostatic organism. The brain constantly needs up-to-date information on the body's state to regulate all the processes that keep it alive. This is the only way an organism can survive in an ever changing environment. Emotions alone—without conscious feelings—would not be enough. Adults would be as helpless as babies if they suddenly lost their self-image.
—Antonio R. Damasio, neurologist (David Dornsife Professor of Neuroscience at USC, Director of the Brain and Creativity Institute
Your "theory" is oversimplified and ignores relevant neurology. The reason I'm uninterested in continuing this discussion is that you refuse to even acknowledge valid scientific data, choosing to believe in your fantastic and completely unproven theory in spite of the fact that established neurology proves you wrong. Which makes you a wooist on this issue, and I have better things to do than read repetitive magical posts that discard valid science.


I was imagining a pretend scenario where one had to live most or his entire life in a state of misery and hopelessness where no emotional regulation or thought process could make this individual feel positive emotions. In such a scenario, that way of living would be completely empty and hell. You would say that such a way of life can still be worth living since this miserable person can channel that misery into things such as artwork. But, according to my personal view, our positive emotions are everything to our lives and we need them. As for the whole inner light/god thing, that was just an artistic metaphor. This is a metaphor which simply says: "We need our positive emotions. Without them, then our lives are empty regardless of what we were to believe otherwise."
Last edited by Omniverse on Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Omniverse
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Re: We might have a new sense that has yet to be discovered

Postby Omniverse » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:45 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Omniverse wrote:Alright, I see now. But where I am getting at is that you've mentioned that there are two forms of value judgments. The first type comes about through our way of thinking and the 2nd type comes about through our emotions. We can make value judgments through our thinking regardless of how we feel. I admit, these types of value judgments are vital since they can help us make wise decisions. But these types of value judgments are no way to live or be an artist. It doesn't matter how much emotional regulation you have. You would still be living a life that is completely empty.
You clearly still don't get it.

Emotional self-regulation puts YOU in control of your emotions. If you wish to feel happy, you have the power to force your brain to generate the appropriate neurochemicals, creating a genuine emotion.

Omniverse wrote:Consider our positive emotions to be a powerful force of goodness (inner light) of the divine cosmos. They are a spoken good value judgment of a higher, transcended, beautiful, heavenly realm.
No. This is religious BS. Positive emotions are not an "inner light of the divine cosmos." They're the result of neurochemicals. Period. Stop indulging in magical thinking and learn some neurology.

Emotion can be considered the result of mood (the inner, subjective feelings), affect (the outer, objective manifestations of feeling), drive, and cognitive control. Research in the past several decades suggests a correlation between characteristic emotional disorders and abnormalities involving restricted neuroanatomical regions. Mood appears to be a product of the basal-limbic structures. Affect is more hemisphere influenced and the difference between nonverbal and verbal affect appears to reflect right and left hemispheric function. Drive can be considered a function of midline anterior anatomical structures while cognitive control, the ability to govern action by thought, seems to depend on frontal convexity and/or orbital frontal function. Emotion is a summation of these activities and emotional disorder may follow disturbance to any one or a combination of these separate functions. LINK
Note that "cognitive control" is considered an essential element.

Or maybe this will be easier for you to understand.
Consciousness, much like our feelings, is based on a representation of the body and how it changes when reacting to certain stimuli. Self-image would be unthinkable without this representation. I think humans have developed a self-image mainly to establish a homeostatic organism. The brain constantly needs up-to-date information on the body's state to regulate all the processes that keep it alive. This is the only way an organism can survive in an ever changing environment. Emotions alone—without conscious feelings—would not be enough. Adults would be as helpless as babies if they suddenly lost their self-image.
—Antonio R. Damasio, neurologist (David Dornsife Professor of Neuroscience at USC, Director of the Brain and Creativity Institute
Your "theory" is oversimplified and ignores relevant neurology. The reason I'm uninterested in continuing this discussion is that you refuse to even acknowledge valid scientific data, choosing to believe in your fantastic and completely unproven theory in spite of the fact that established neurology proves you wrong. Which makes you a wooist on this issue, and I have better things to do than read repetitive magical posts that discard valid science.


@Nikki Nyx: I would like to say one last thing here in addition to my previous post. You tend to give up on me quite easily. But this whole giving up on me is based upon accusations that are just plain unfair. I never said that our positive emotions are literally an inner light of god. That was just an artistic metaphor since we use metaphors all the time in literature and artwork to convey elements of reality as I've explained in my previous post. There are also many other misconceptions as well that are just plain false. As for my metaphor, why can't it work? If I was in the process of writing any piece of literature, then I could choose any element of reality and use any metaphor I wanted to in order to convey that element. So, I see no issue here.

Let me go ahead and address this point before I move on:

Doesn't matter. You can't separate your "what it's like" to see red from those connotations; they occur together in your brain.


The only way I can have a positive experience in my life is through my positive emotions and the only way I can have a negative experience in my life is through my negative emotions. Just because I define a positive experience there in the absence of my positive emotions does not mean it is there since there is a big difference between definitions and qualities. If you did not feel hungry and you defined the thought of getting something to eat as being a feeling of hunger, then there would still be no feeling of hunger there. There would be no quality of hunger there. I can clearly tell that there is no real quality of good value, love, joy, or beauty in my life without my positive emotions regardless of what I were to believe otherwise. The same idea applies to negative emotions.

These values that transcend words are what I call the consciousness based values in my other packet which explains all the horrible moments I've been through in my life. Consciousness based values, again, focus on the quality of your experience (conscious states) rather than definitions. I have had horrible, altered, crippled states in my nightmares which were orders of magnitude worse than the ones in my waking life. These completely altered states were literally of the worst possible quality in my life and it is not a matter of me just simply looking at them and judging them to be horrible. Yes, I have judged them to be horrible. But they were literally horrible. So, my judgment would be correct and reflects the reality (quality) of my experience.

Lastly, there are people out there in this world who claim that there is another form of emotion besides the ones pointed out here. They say these emotions go beyond the biochemical induced ones I've described. If a person was in a completely miserable state where all of those biochemicals that induced positive emotions were turned off, but this person still believed his life to be good, beautiful, and worth living, then these people would define that as a positive emotion or a positive feeling/experience. It would be a different form of emotion/positive experience.

Based upon my own personal experience, I simply do not think this is true. During my worst miserable moments, I have still chosen to get the help I needed and I still believed that to be a good and beautiful thing. Why wouldn't I? The idea of regaining my positive emotions back to me would certainly be a good and beautiful thing for a hedonist like me. But hear me out when I say this. Even though I believed changing my life was a good and beautiful thing during my worst miserable moments, I could clearly tell that there was no real positive emotion, feeling, experience, or any real good value/beauty in my life at all. My life was still literally the worst hell and completely devoid of any good value and beauty. That is why I have to come to the conclusion that this other definition of a positive and negative experience, feeling, emotion, and good/bad is false.
Last edited by Omniverse on Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:37 pm, edited 42 times in total.

Matthew Ellard
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Matt MVS7 Trolling Thread No8

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:20 am

Omniverse AKA MATT MSV7 wrote: Nikki Nyx: That was just an artistic metaphor since we use metaphors all the time in literature and artwork to convey elements of reality as I've explained in my previous post.

Omniverse AKA MATT MSV7 two months ago wrote: But where I am getting at is that I am in a dangerous situation here since I cannot have a bowel movement due to this obsessive worry. If I don't have a bowel movement within a certain time and it all builds up in my system, I will die.

Artistic Metaphor?


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