Our brains are gendered...

What you think about how you think.
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Our brains are gendered...

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:22 pm

The largest scale functional brain imaging study to date, involving 46,034 subjects, showed quantifiable differences between men's and women's brains.
Image
Side view of the brain summarizing blood flow results from tens of thousands of study subjects shows increased blood flow in women compared to men, highlighted in the red colored areas of the brain: the cingulate gyrus and precuneus. Men in this image have higher blood flow in blue colored areas -- the cerebellum.
Credit: Journal of Alzheimer's Disease

The brains of women in the study were significantly more active in many more areas of the brain than men, especially in the prefrontal cortex, involved with focus and impulse control, and the limbic or emotional areas of the brain, involved with mood and anxiety. The visual and coordination centers of the brain were more active in men.

Subjects included 119 healthy volunteers and 26,683 patients with a variety of psychiatric conditions such as brain trauma, bipolar disorders, mood disorders, schizophrenia/psychotic disorders, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). A total of 128 brain regions were analyzed for subjects at baseline and while performing a concentration task.

Understanding these differences is important because brain disorders affect men and women differently. Women have significantly higher rates of Alzheimer's disease, depression, which is itself is a risk factor for Alzheimer's disease, and anxiety disorders, while men have higher rates of (ADHD), conduct-related problems, and incarceration (by 1,400%).
Read the story here.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:55 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote: Understanding these differences is important because brain disorders affect men and women differently.

What difference should the differences make (if any) in non brain disorder cases?==>ie..."life."

Of interest: employment of females in tech industry a la the James Damore firing because he posted a memo saying nothing more than what you have posted above.

https://medium.com/@Cernovich/full-jame ... 39f3d2d05f

ha, ha.......I assume he published the memo "knowing" he would get fired. The truth is no defense against a Corporations PR program.
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:11 pm

Not exactly, Bobbo.

The Dr. Amen study seeks to determine differences for the purpose of fine-tuning medical treatments and/or preventions.

Damore assumes differences for the purpose of justifying stereotyping and discrimination.
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:30 pm

Oleg........I do appreciate the distinction you have failed to make..except rhetorically.

BUT.......the stereotype Damore wants to justify are the same differences that Dr Amen has determined and is trying to match to fine tuning medical treatments whereas Damore wants to fine tune them to workplace employment.

There is no difference.............except for social policy ............ and the "exact" argument to be made therefrom.

In the main: valid group distinctions should have no play against the individuals within such groups BECAUSE: individuals are more variable than groups. Its a: subtlety.
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:55 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Oleg........I do appreciate the distinction you have failed to make..except rhetorically.

BUT.......the stereotype Damore wants to justify are the same differences that Dr Amen has determined and is trying to match to fine tuning medical treatments whereas Damore wants to fine tune them to workplace employment.

There is no difference.............except for social policy ............ and the "exact" argument to be made therefrom.

In the main: valid group distinctions should have no play against the individuals within such groups BECAUSE: individuals are more variable than groups. Its a: subtlety.


You either miss or ignore a key point:

Damore makes assumptions, Amen does studies.

I disagree that Damore is wishing to fine tune employment. Total BS. There is no evidence anywhere that general physiological differences between genders or races is in any way predictive of aptitude or ability.
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:56 pm

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/08/0 ... _employee/


"Assange tweeted: "Censorship is for losers. @WikiLeaks is offering a job to fired Google engineer James Damore.

"Women & men deserve respect. That includes not firing them for politely expressing ideas but rather arguing back."
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:00 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote: Damore makes assumptions, Amen does studies.
I thought the link said Armen had found the differences that you claim don't exist and he is only fine tuning them to certain disease processes?



OlegTheBatty wrote: I disagree that Damore is wishing to fine tune employment. Total BS. There is no evidence anywhere that general physiological differences between genders or races is in any way predictive of aptitude or ability.
Ummm....I thought it boiled down to cultural input as to choices made by men vs women. Aptitude or ability becoming irrelevant.
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby xouper » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:01 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:Damore assumes differences for the purpose of justifying stereotyping and discrimination.


I've read the document. Where in it does he say that or even imply it?

Seems to me that was not his purpose, but rather his stated purpose was that the problem of not enough women in the computer programming cannot be solved unless you know the actual cause and not just the politically correct "cause".

What am I missing?

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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby xouper » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:03 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:. . . There is no evidence anywhere that general physiological differences between genders or races is in any way predictive of aptitude or ability.


If I may ask, where can I find more information to support that assertion?

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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:32 pm

xouper wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:. . . There is no evidence anywhere that general physiological differences between genders or races is in any way predictive of aptitude or ability.


If I may ask, where can I find more information to support that assertion?

Seems to me the relevant/correct question is on YOU xouper: where is the evidence that THERE ARE geneeral physiological differences between genders...............

Oops. We are on that very thread with two publish authoritative studies on the mark: the OP and Dr Armen.

Looks like Oleg is just completely WRONG. How does THAT happen????? (I know: political correctness.)
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:33 pm

Sexual Dimorphism
We see lots of example of sexual dimorphism in other species, where the female is very different, physically from the male. It would seem to be a normal advantage that pops up in the evolution of specific species.

I think it is interesting that in human social evolution, it is only until recently, that labour was also divided by gender. (A rough example would be males hunting while females gather. ) I therefore somewhat expected to see some genetic differences in how brains function.

However here we are today and there is almost no reason for any sexual division of labour. Therefore it seems to me that we always need to make ourselves aware of our legacy genes so we can best move forward with eradicating sexism and identify sexism that may be innate. (That doesn't mean there is a solution.....but at least we know the problem)
:D

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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:35 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: I think it is interesting that in human social evolution, it is only until recently, that labour was also divided by gender.

You want to think about that some more?
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:41 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: I think it is interesting that in human social evolution, it is only until recently, that labour was also divided by gender.

You want to think about that some more?


No, Bobbo. I know a lot about this. All labour was sexually divided. Today there are very few tasks that are not performed by both men and women.

Do you have a specific point?

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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:48 pm

Yes..my read is what you posted says just the opposite of what you posted just above, that I agree with.

................Not to quibble: TON of data on child rearing..............comes down to how important the few is?
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:04 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Yes..my read is what you posted says just the opposite of what you posted just above, that I agree with.
Fair enough. I should have tried to be clearer in my earlier post.

Off Topic
When we were looking at "hunter gatherers" as social models for early human troops, it was explained to us that hunting was less efficient than gathering. That meant men have been lazy bastards and not pulling their weight for hundreds of thousands of years.

Note how most of this forum of lazy people, who should be out there working are males. :D

I note that 40,000 years ago all the outlines of hands are also males. Men just do anything to avoid hard work. :D
hands cave painting.jpg
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:12 am

Less efficient doesn't mean less work. And less efficient doesn't mean less necessary.

MAN!===>I can't imagine growing up without a dictionary!
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:20 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Less efficient doesn't mean less work. And less efficient doesn't mean less necessary.
I think sitting in a cave and blowing red ochre over your hand does not really count as work. Do you?

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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:21 am

What would you do at 2AM?
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:27 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:What would you do at 2AM?
As a general rule, try steal back the doona and bolsters from my girlfriend and very large cat. :D

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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby xouper » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:57 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
xouper wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:. . . There is no evidence anywhere that general physiological differences between genders or races is in any way predictive of aptitude or ability.


If I may ask, where can I find more information to support that assertion?

Seems to me the relevant/correct question is on YOU xouper: where is the evidence that THERE ARE geneeral physiological differences between genders...............


"Lighten up, Francis." ;)

I was not making a claim.

I wasn't even challenging Oleg's claim.

I was being polite and asking if Oleg would be kind enough to point me in the right direction to learn more about what he said. No need to make a federal case of it.

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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:01 am

Mirror.
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:22 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:I think it is interesting that in human social evolution, it is only until recently, that labour was also divided by gender. (A rough example would be males hunting while females gather. ) I therefore somewhat expected to see some genetic differences in how brains function.
Labor is still divided in quite a few areas: construction, emergency responders, landscaping, electrical, plumbing, HVAC, etc. are all still male-dominated, at least in the US. Nursing, hairdressing, raising children, etc. are mainly female careers.

Matthew Ellard wrote:However here we are today and there is almost no reason for any sexual division of labour.
The only reason I can think of is if the job involves a large amount of physical strength, especially upper body. Example: If my house is burning, and I see a petite 50 kilo female firefighter climbing up the ladder to rescue me, I'm going to be a bit worried as to whether she can manage to carry my 63 kilos down the ladder. However, all things being equal, I'm just as concerned when I see an obese male police officer. What good is he? He certainly can't chase after a suspect! But if the applicant meets the physical requirements of the job, then gender shouldn't matter.
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:26 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Note how most of this forum of lazy people, who should be out there working are males. :D
Hey! I'm not lazy; I'm disabled. (And lazy. Who invents all the labor-saving devices? Smart, lazy people sitting on the couch thinking, "There's gotta be an easier way to do this." :mrgreen: )
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:37 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:However here we are today and there is almost no reason for any sexual division of labour.
Nikki Nyx wrote:The only reason I can think of is if the job involves a large amount of physical strength, especially upper body.
My first full time job was for a fashion model agency as a bookkeeper studying accounting.

I don't think the male members of this forum, would sell a lot of dresses, by showing them on the catwalk. :D

Story Time
I was the only straight male in the model agency and I had my own accounts room. Peter, the boss said "We have a Japanese casting agent visiting for a swimwear shoot and we need the models to change in your room while you are working. I said "Wont they be upset about a bloke being in the room?" Peter said "I told the models you are queer" ("Gay" wasn't a word yet). I thought "Well what can hurt from a room full of beautiful nude women?" For the next couple hours every male model was shoving his bottom in my face as it was a male swimwear shoot.

I was teased, tricked, made-fun-of for three years before I could get a job in a normal Chartered Accounting Firm.

Soooo....I then run the music division for an accounting firm. The problem was that I picked up every mannerism from the gay gentlemen at the model agency. Therefore all the rock bands would say things to me like "You're a good guy for a poof" "I'm not a poof" "Sure mate. I'll keep it secret". If ever I went out with my girlfriends the rock bands would try pick them up as "available".
Last edited by Matthew Ellard on Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:50 am

If there are two sexes of a species, by definition, they complement each other: any differences in abilities arise in balance, so that the one's weakness is compensated by the strength of the other. since none can procreate without the other, talking about superiority just shows that one is missing the point.
Companies do well to diversify their staff, especially in terms of gender, because it is less likely that problems and possible solutions will be overlooked if everyone doesn't think and acts exactly the same way.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:57 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:However here we are today and there is almost no reason for any sexual division of labour.
Nikki Nyx wrote:The only reason I can think of is if the job involves a large amount of physical strength, especially upper body.
My first full time job was for a fashion model agency as a bookkeeper studying accounting.

I don't think the male members of this forum, would sell a lot of dresses, by showing them on the catwalk. :D

That depends. Have you SEEN photos from any recent Fashion Week? I'm unsure of what end goal fashion designers for men have in mind, but it can't possibly be "wearable clothing." I mean...

A Clockwork Watermelon?
Image
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby Phoenix76 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:49 am

ElectricMonk wrote:If there are two sexes of a species, by definition, they complement each other: any differences in abilities arise in balance, so that the one's weakness is compensated by the strength of the other. since none can procreate without the other, talking about superiority just shows that one is missing the point.
Companies do well to diversify their staff, especially in terms of gender, because it is less likely that problems and possible solutions will be overlooked if everyone doesn't think and acts exactly the same way.


Well EM, I think you have hit it on the head. With few exceptions, the sexes are different. Not only physiologically, but psychologically as well. Yep there have always been females out there who could compete with any bricky's labourer about.

But just look at the major physiological difference. Women can give birth, men can't. Now I don't believe in god or any such thing, but obviously "nature" has made sure that we can procreate and build the human race. If all women suddenly decide that, yes we love having sex, but we are not going to get pregnant, then the human race would have a rather short life span.

I have the utmost respect for women and their abilities, either as "baby makers" or whatever their other prowess might be. As I see it, the left wing, hairy armpit brigade, have an agenda all of their own, and I have no real idea what it is.

If a woman chooses to be a Mother, that's great, if she chooses to be a career woman, then that's great also. I just can't understand why we should all this agro about a woman's role in society.

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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:08 am

Yes, we are different, but the range of variety between sexes probably isn't much bigger than the variety within a gender, especially when considering how fluid the concept of gender itself is.
As always, generalizations won't get us far.

The male/female divide in humans is far from straight-forward. The reason is the arms-race of the sexes, with competing goals.
We are so intelligent because for hundreds of thousands of years we had to outwit the smartest animal on the planet: other humans.
So women learn to play the Male-game and vice versa; and then double- and triple bluff each other.
It's a question of the skill of the players how much they can think like someone else, not really were they are coming from.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:23 am

Lots of mix metaphor blatherfarb. Most...without a point. Yes...there are differences between the groups. But individuals vary within any groups parameters leaving social constructs as hit and miss as any general rule is. Individuals always get hosed over in favor of what is viewed as normative behavior.

Pros and Cons to all we do. Make the rules clear and simple. Anyone who doesn't like it: can start their own country.

Simple.
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby Phoenix76 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:35 am

To any Moderators online.

We have the ability to post a "Like" for someone's post. How about the option of a "Thumbs Down" for someone's post. Reckon that feature would get a lot of use.

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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby Gord » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:50 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:However here we are today and there is almost no reason for any sexual division of labour.

The only reason I can think of is if the job involves a large amount of physical strength, especially upper body.

I've known quite a few women who could pick me up and throw me around like an old bale of hay.
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby OlegTheBatty » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:37 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:Sexual Dimorphism
We see lots of example of sexual dimorphism in other species, where the female is very different, physically from the male. It would seem to be a normal advantage that pops up in the evolution of specific species.

I think it is interesting that in human social evolution, it is only until recently, that labour was also divided by gender. (A rough example would be males hunting while females gather. ) I therefore somewhat expected to see some genetic differences in how brains function.

However here we are today and there is almost no reason for any sexual division of labour. Therefore it seems to me that we always need to make ourselves aware of our legacy genes so we can best move forward with eradicating sexism and identify sexism that may be innate. (That doesn't mean there is a solution.....but at least we know the problem)
:D


Sort of divided. Food preparation was mostly women but otherwise, division of labour was mostly fuzzy. Anthro101 oversimplifies. More men may have hunted than gathered, and more women may have gathered than hunted, but both did both. Women fought in battles, too.
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby OlegTheBatty » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:49 pm

xouper wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
xouper wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:. . . There is no evidence anywhere that general physiological differences between genders or races is in any way predictive of aptitude or ability.


If I may ask, where can I find more information to support that assertion?

Seems to me the relevant/correct question is on YOU xouper: where is the evidence that THERE ARE geneeral physiological differences between genders...............


"Lighten up, Francis." ;)

I was not making a claim.

I wasn't even challenging Oleg's claim.

I was being polite and asking if Oleg would be kind enough to point me in the right direction to learn more about what he said. No need to make a federal case of it.


If you are looking at a job application, can you tell if the person is capable of the job based solely on gender (I'll ignore race because the discussion is about gender differences)?

Even if the job is 'surrogate mother', we can only determine unsuitability for males, we cannot determine whether a female applicant can perform the job without more information. Men and women do tend to gravitate toward different fields, but it is only a tendency, and it is still not predictive of ability.

PS. You can ignore Bobbo. His reading comprehension is insufficient to note that I do not deny gender dimorphism, only that it is not a predictor of aptitiude or ability.
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There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:56 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote: PS. You can ignore Bobbo. His reading comprehension is insufficient to note that I do not deny gender dimorphism, only that it is not a predictor of aptitiude or ability.

thats exactly what I said. Well, not exactly.....I said it more exactly. Amusing you would lead with reading comprehension when I even cautioned my comments were "subtle."

Xouper also cannot tell when he is being agreed with and supported.

How does this happen..................... so often????
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:01 pm

The study in the OP is a fantastic jumping off point for additional studies on "the gendered brain." I'm curious about a number of things:

1. Are these gendered patterns of thinking innate or learned?

2. If innate, do they relate to the structural differences between men's and women's brains? (I've read that certain regions show size variances between the genders, and depending on sexual orientation.)

3. If learned, can new patterns be learned via neural plasticity?

4. Is it possible to reach a valid conclusion about the gender binary based on brain imaging studies?

5. If the brain is actually "gendered" based on both its structure and patterns of thinking, is it possible for genetic mutations to create a person who has a brain of one gender and the reproductive organs of the other gender? (I'm wondering if anyone has determined a genetic basis of transgenderism, not because I wish to discount the experiences of these individuals, but merely from curiosity.)

6. Could this same class of genetic mutations create a "hermaphroditic" brain? (Obviously, I'm speaking to those who claim they have no gender, or are "gender fluid." Here, I'm more inclined to call bull-shit without some scientific evidence. I won't bother to address the individuals who believe their gender is "gendervoid foxkin demiqueer" or "stargender pansexual snakekin.")
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:13 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:The study in the OP is a fantastic jumping off point for additional studies on "the gendered brain." I'm curious about a number of things:


Being curious is a curious thing. Why be curious? Why not ANSWER your own questions?????

Its easy. Take each issue. As best you can: fashion a yes answer. Then fashion a no answer. compare and contrast. Appreciate BOTH.

There it is.
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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby Gord » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:26 pm

"Is your brain pre-op or post-op?"
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:18 pm

Mine was rendered.
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:21 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Why not ANSWER your own questions?????
Because I don't have enough information to answer them sufficiently to draw a reasonable conclusion either way.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Our brains are gendered...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:06 pm

NN.....I sincerely doubt that. It is a process. Not to pontificate...........xxx. some of the questions you could take a good stab at. And what good stab isn't worth the effort?
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