Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

What you think about how you think.
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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby xouper » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:21 am

gorgeous wrote: xou...does the brain on it's own make decisions??


If all those words mean what I think they mean, then I will say, yes, I believe the brain on its own makes decisions.

Unless I am misunderstanding, you do not agree with that, and that's fine with me. :D

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby gorgeous » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:24 am

how about the liver and kidneys...do they make decisions?
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:26 am

gorgeous wrote:not my fault if rense has same info as other sites..
Two posts ago you said you never went there. You were lying then.

You are are also lying now. The Rense Organisation writes its own articles and carries KKK propaganda including hosting the David Duke radio show. Jeff Rense uses UFO stories, Pixie stories, Leprechaun stories and so on to gather idiots together who can can push his extremist agenda on. You copy and past those exact same stories here.

Will Smith - 'Hitler Was Essentially A Good Person
http://www.rense.com/general79/smith.htm

David Duke KKK Radio shows at Rense.
http://www.renseradioarchives.com/dduke/

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby xouper » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:27 am

gorgeous wrote:how about the liver and kidneys...do they make decisions?


No. Not in the sense that (I assume) you are using the word "decision".

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:08 am

gorgeous wrote:not my fault if rense has same info as other sites..


Jewish Dominance Of America - Facts Are Facts (Rense article)
http://www.rense.com/general59/sdom.htm

Seven Jewish Americans Control Most US Media (Rense Article)
http://www.rense.com/general44/sevenjewishamericans.htm

Do Jews Run Hollywood? - You Bet They Do (Rense article)
http://rense.com/general21/bet.htm

The Federal Reserve - Zionist Jewish Private Bankers (Rense article)
http://www.rense.com/general85/feddrec.htm

Hitler Didn't Want World War - Illuminati Created and Manipulated Hitler (Rense Article)
http://www.rense.com/general50/itle.htm

Illuminati Defector Details Pervasive Conspiracy (Rense article)
http://www.rense.com/general30/illuminatidefector.htm

So Gorgeous? How many anti-Illuminati posts have you lifted from Rense? Make a guess? (You must be very upset that the Illuminati ruined Hitler's good work)

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Dimebag » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:25 am

gorgeous wrote:"For Dr. Shadlen, the most complex thoughts that the human brain can experience -- such as love, grief, guilt or morality -- can be ultimately be boiled down to a series of decisions, made by the brain, to engage with the outside world. "-----------wth??? the brain makes the decisions??? ........the brain decides to be in love or moral??? what is this crap??? ...shows how stupid scientists can be....people make decisions, not the brain!!

If you don't use your brain to make a decision then what do you use? Do you think all those neurons are in there to fill space?

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby gorgeous » Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:47 am

the non-physical mind....brain is to manipulate the body...people out of body are fully conscious and making decisions ....
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Dimebag » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:07 pm

gorgeous wrote:the non-physical mind....brain is to manipulate the body...people out of body are fully conscious and making decisions ....

How would you explain people with learning difficulties and intellectual impairments? Or people with brain damage having limited cognitive abilities? Their brains are obviously lacking the normal capacity, causing difficulties and inabilities in cognition. Not just a damaged vessel, the captain itself is incapable.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:29 pm

xouper wrote:I am reluctant to step into this, but I will anyway, for the sake of perhaps preventing an escalation of bad feelings.

As a newbie here, perhaps you have not had enough history to know where gorgeous is coming from in her remarks. That is to say, her remarks make sense only within the context of her belief system, but that might not be obvious until one gets a more complete idea of what her metaphysical philosophy and epistemology is.

I am not endorsing what gorgeous believes (nor do I agree with it), but at least I think I understand it, having studied such authors as Jane Roberts, Robert Monroe, etc. And with that (self-alleged) understanding comes the realization that unless you can persuade her to give up the foundational axioms of her belief system, it will be pointless to try persuading her that any of the corollary or derivative beliefs or opinions are wrong. That is to say, her remarks are (for the most part) logically consistent with her core axioms and thus her remarks are not likely to be refutable without first addressing those core axioms.

Long story short: You can disagree with her remarks, but it's not likely you will persuade her to change any of her beliefs. I say this primarily in case you might be interested to avoid frustration or to avoid wasting time and energy. And also I say this in case you might be wondering whether anyone here is persuaded by her remarks.

In my opinion, Gorgeous is a well-intentioned and sincere person who is sometimes mistaken for a troll. She is merely coming from a significantly different world-view than you or I, a world-view that is probably better understood on New Age forums, for example. There is no need to worry that her remarks will hurt anyone here. Knowing that makes it easier for me avoid taking offense and instead interpret her remarks as coming from someone who is entitled to express an opposing viewpoint, even if no one else here agrees with her.

I may be out of line speaking up, in which case, never mind. :D
I thank you for your explanation, xouper. I have experienced a sufficient number of gorgeous' comments in context to realize that her world view is unscientific. My intention in responding was not to make a fruitless attempt to help her see logic, but rather my own unwillingness to let such an irrational comment stand without challenge in this forum, of all places.

I would not wade into a woo forum with my "be rational" soapbox, any more than I would barge into a KKK meeting and lecture its participants on the irrationality of their racism. So, my sense is that gorgeous and those like her who come here, to a skeptics' forum, should be challenged. It's clear she is not here to share or learn fact-based knowledge, but to spam the forum with her particular brand of woo, which she consistently fails to support (except with out-of-context quotes, dead links, and logical fallacies).

I don't take offense at her posts. The phrase "to take offense" implies that I have a choice. :mrgreen: And the taking of offense requires an investment of emotion I'm generally not willing to offer for anything except the most egregious, deliberately malicious ad hominem, which is exceedingly rare here, IMO.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby xouper » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:37 pm

Dimebag wrote:
gorgeous wrote:the non-physical mind....brain is to manipulate the body...people out of body are fully conscious and making decisions ....


How would you explain people with learning difficulties and intellectual impairments? Or people with brain damage having limited cognitive abilities? Their brains are obviously lacking the normal capacity, causing difficulties and inabilities in cognition. Not just a damaged vessel, the captain itself is incapable.


There are many books written by so-called New Age authors that include an explanation for those questions.

The short answer is: Assuming that the mind (or soul as some people might call it) exists independent of the brain, then a defective brain acts as a "throttle" on how well the (incarnated) mind can use that brain to interact with the physical environment experienced by the brain. I can explain in more detail if you like.

However, personally I do not believe in the non-physical existence of any mind, so the above explanation is merely hypothetical to me. I offer it merely as a possible answer to your question. Gorgeous may have a different answer.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:42 pm

gorgeous wrote:brain doesn't make decisions.,you said a person can't make decisions...
No. I said a person without a functioning brain cannot make decisions. Don't misquote me.

gorgeous wrote:organs don't make decisions....
Of course they do. I mean, your pancreas doesn't decide of a Sunday to go for a picnic in the park, but it does make simple decisions based on its normal functioning, such as stepping up insulin production if you've binged on tiramisu.

gorgeous wrote:physical decisions...in nde's people out of body do make decisions...not dependent on the brain or body.......
Please do offer one of your out-of-context quotes or dead links as proof.

gorgeous wrote:and you said he said the brain and mind are separate, then denied he said it...junior....
No. Do you have difficulty with reading comprehension? I said he made a distinction between biology and philosophy, not between brain and mind.

Are you referring to me as "junior" for some specific reason? Perhaps you're under the impression that age confers wisdom, grandma? :rotfl:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:45 pm

gorgeous wrote:that silence from xou and nikki means I'm right...just so you know...

WTactualF? When I don't comment within a certain time period, it absolutely does NOT mean I agree with you EVER. It means that I went out with friends last night instead of reading your garbage. I haven't even read the rest of this thread yet, but I'll take the risk of saying, "You're wrong," without even doing so.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby gorgeous » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:46 pm

Dimebag wrote:
gorgeous wrote:the non-physical mind....brain is to manipulate the body...people out of body are fully conscious and making decisions ....

How would you explain people with learning difficulties and intellectual impairments? Or people with brain damage having limited cognitive abilities? Their brains are obviously lacking the normal capacity, causing difficulties and inabilities in cognition. Not just a damaged vessel, the captain itself is incapable.

-----------the mind is fine...if they traveled out of their body they would have normal consciousness....the brain is damaged and can't operate the physical body well...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby gorgeous » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:51 pm

"The brain makes decisions. Without a brain, a person cannot make decisions."-----you said a person cannot make decisions...a person is not a brain.....would a brain in a jar make decisions??
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby xouper » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:58 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:I thank you for your explanation, xouper. I have experienced a sufficient number of gorgeous' comments in context to realize that her world view is unscientific.


Yes, that much is readily apparent without knowing much about her world-view.

What might not be immediately obvious is that her world-view is also (mostly) internally consistent with the core axioms of the so-called New Age philosophy. That is to say, she is not being "unscientific" for no reason, there is actually a well established body of "knowledge" behind it. I'm not always sure why she believes some of her "conspiracy theories", but I don't lose any sleep over it.


Nikki Nyx wrote: My intention in responding was not to make a fruitless attempt to help her see logic, but rather my own unwillingness to let such an irrational comment stand without challenge in this forum, of all places.


Sure. Why not. :D

For me, I no longer feel the need to challenge her comments, on the assumption that her comments are not likely to have any effect on anyone's position here.


Nikki Nyx wrote:I would not wade into a woo forum with my "be rational" soapbox, any more than I would barge into a KKK meeting and lecture its participants on the irrationality of their racism. So, my sense is that gorgeous and those like her who come here, to a skeptics' forum, should be challenged. It's clear she is not here to share or learn fact-based knowledge, but to spam the forum with her particular brand of woo, which she consistently fails to support (except with out-of-context quotes, dead links, and logical fallacies).


I agree she does not seem to be here to learn about the scientific or skeptical world-view.

Her posts may seem like spam to some, but I don't think that's her motive. I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt she is mostly interested in sharing her viewpoint on a forum she well knows is generally hostile to her point of view. I could be wrong, of course. I will concede, however, that sometimes her style can be a bit annoying.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby gorgeous » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:06 pm

"Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real." - Niels Bohr -------looks very illogical to me....----------------you will learn that I am right... what is unscientific?? stuff scientists have yet to acknowledge??? not my fault how dense and slow they are...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby xouper » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:13 pm

Can I put on my hockey referee uniform and make a couple of meta-observations here?

Nikki Nyx wrote:
gorgeous wrote:organs don't make decisions....


Of course they do. I mean, your pancreas doesn't decide of a Sunday to go for a picnic in the park, but it does make simple decisions based on its normal functioning, such as stepping up insulin production if you've binged on tiramisu.


It seems to me this is more a quibble about the definition of the word "decision".

It is possible define "decision" in such a way that Nikki is correct, or to define "decision" in such a way that gorgeous is correct.

Until this ambiguity is resolved, the discussion will go nowhere and be a waste of time.


Nikki Nyx wrote:
gorgeous wrote:physical decisions...in nde's people out of body do make decisions...not dependent on the brain or body.......


Please do offer one of your out-of-context quotes or dead links as proof.


There is a large body of published work describing such things, which gorgeous can cite, but there is insufficient scientific evidence for the existence of a non-physical mind (an out-of-body mind). She might also quote various scientists out of context, which at first glance might seem to support her view, but in actuality does not.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:15 pm

xouper wrote:What might not be immediately obvious is that her world-view is also (mostly) internally consistent with the core axioms of the so-called New Age philosophy. That is to say, she is not being "unscientific" for no reason, there is actually a well established body of "knowledge" behind it. I'm not always sure why she believes some of her "conspiracy theories", but I don't lose any sleep over it.
Is made-up stuff considered "knowledge" now? :mrgreen: No, I know she has her "theories," which I also have to put in quotes. I find it incredible that one person is capable of suspending disbelief in so many areas. Of course, she probably finds it equally incredible that the rest of us believe in nothing that cannot be proven.

xouper wrote:For me, I no longer feel the need to challenge her comments, on the assumption that her comments are not likely to have any effect on anyone's position here.
I do ignore most of her longer comments. Her style of writing—omitting capitalization, punctuation, and paragraphs, then ending her thoughts with multiple ellipses—gives me a migraine.

xouper wrote:Her posts may seem like spam to some, but I don't think that's her motive. I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt she is mostly interested in sharing her viewpoint on a forum she well knows is generally hostile to her point of view. I could be wrong, of course. I will concede, however, that sometimes her style can be a bit annoying.
I'd love to hear from her about her motive for being here, although I wouldn't count on her explanation to be truthful. It might, however, be interesting. ;)
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby xouper » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:21 pm

gorgeous wrote:"The brain makes decisions. Without a brain, a person cannot make decisions."-----you said a person cannot make decisions...a person is not a brain.....would a brain in a jar make decisions??


A brain in a jar is likely to be a dead brain, and thus not capable of deciding anything.

It seems to me Nikki is referring to a living brain, so asking about a brain in a jar is perhaps to get off track a bit.

However, if you are referring to a brain in a jar that is alive (with some sort of life support), then I would guess that it can indeed think and make decisions, but not be able to act on any of those decisions, unless there is some way to signal something to the world outside of that brain.

Does that answer your question?

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:21 pm

gorgeous wrote:"The brain makes decisions. Without a brain, a person cannot make decisions."-----you said a person cannot make decisions...a person is not a brain.....would a brain in a jar make decisions??
No. I. Did. Not. Now you're being deliberately dense.

Might I suggest a remedial reading course? Perhaps if I explain using words of one or two syllables:
A person with no brain cannot make choices.
A brain with no person cannot make choices.
A person with a brain that does not work cannot make choices.
Only a person with a brain that works can make choices.

Clear?
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:24 pm

I suspect that in the worldview of gorgeous, 'evidence' and 'proof' have different meanings than they do to us. I note that 'proof' to a mathematician is not the same as 'proof' to a lawyer or to a scientist.
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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby xouper » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:30 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:What might not be immediately obvious is that her world-view is also (mostly) internally consistent with the core axioms of the so-called New Age philosophy. That is to say, she is not being "unscientific" for no reason, there is actually a well established body of "knowledge" behind it.


Is made-up stuff considered "knowledge" now? :mrgreen:


It is when I use air-quotes. ;) (See also Oleg's comment.)

I might quibble with you about just how "made up" some of it is, though. There is an internal consistency and logic to much of New Age "knowledge", despite lack of scientific rigor.


Nikki Nyx wrote:I find it incredible that one person is capable of suspending disbelief in so many areas.


I hear ya. Understanding why some people have that kind of world-view is not something I know a lot about. Perhaps those experts who have studied such people scientifically could offer more insight as to why they believe as they do. Or maybe not.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby gorgeous » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:31 pm

tell me ..what makes a brain a living brain?
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby gorgeous » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:32 pm

that you don't understand your own existence is illogical...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:33 pm

xouper wrote:Can I put on my hockey referee uniform and make a couple of meta-observations here?
Nikki Nyx wrote:
gorgeous wrote:organs don't make decisions....
Of course they do. I mean, your pancreas doesn't decide of a Sunday to go for a picnic in the park, but it does make simple decisions based on its normal functioning, such as stepping up insulin production if you've binged on tiramisu.
It seems to me this is more a quibble about the definition of the word "decision".

It is possible define "decision" in such a way that Nikki is correct, or to define "decision" in such a way that gorgeous is correct.

Until this ambiguity is resolved, the discussion will go nowhere and be a waste of time.
That was just me poking gorgeous with a stick. :nyaah: For the purposes of this discussion—if we can discard the off-topic and return to it—"making decisions" refers to the conscious process of deliberating among available choices and selecting one. By that definition, the pancreas doesn't make decisions, but neither does a person without a functioning brain.

xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
gorgeous wrote:physical decisions...in nde's people out of body do make decisions...not dependent on the brain or body.......
Please do offer one of your out-of-context quotes or dead links as proof.
There is a large body of published work describing such things, which gorgeous can cite, but there is insufficient scientific evidence for the existence of a non-physical mind (an out-of-body mind). She might also quote various scientists out of context, which at first glance might seem to support her view, but in actuality does not.
Exactly my point.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:36 pm

xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Is made-up stuff considered "knowledge" now? :mrgreen:
It is when I use air-quotes. ;) (See also Oleg's comment.)

I might quibble with you about just how "made up" some of it is, though. There is an internal consistency and logic to much of New Age "knowledge", despite lack of scientific rigor.
That lack is the reason I use the phrase "made up." A well-written novel generally has internal consistency and logic, but it's still fiction.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby xouper » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:41 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:. . . Now you're being deliberately dense.

. . . Might I suggest a remedial reading course?


These kinds of comments do not facilitate civil discussion.

:slapfight:

Your choice, of course. I'm just saying. ;)


Nikki Nyx wrote:A person with no brain cannot make choices.
A brain with no person cannot make choices.
A person with a brain that does not work cannot make choices.
Only a person with a brain that works can make choices.


Depends on how you define "person".

I suspect gorgeous means "person" is a non-physical entity that exists independent of the physical brain.

I could be wrong about her intention, so it would help if she clarified that point.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby gorgeous » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:43 pm

a person cannot make decisions."-----
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby xouper » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:46 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Is made-up stuff considered "knowledge" now? :mrgreen:


It is when I use air-quotes. ;) (See also Oleg's comment.)

I might quibble with you about just how "made up" some of it is, though. There is an internal consistency and logic to much of New Age "knowledge", despite lack of scientific rigor.


That lack is the reason I use the phrase "made up." A well-written novel generally has internal consistency and logic, but it's still fiction.


Does lack of scientific rigor automatically imply a book is fiction?

Example:

Image

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby gorgeous » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:50 pm

nikki are you real? because according to physicist Bohr nothing is real....rather illogical...wouldn't you say?
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:56 pm

gorgeous wrote:that you don't understand your own existence is illogical ignorance...


By definition . . .
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:22 pm

gorgeous wrote:nikki are you real? because according to physicist Bohr nothing is real....rather illogical...wouldn't you say?
No Gorgeous. You have already been caught faking that Niels Bohr quote by editing off the first sentence. Niels Bohr is specifically discussing the standard model of the atom........which he co invented.
bohrrutherford-atom.jpg
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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby gorgeous » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:08 am

"Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real." - Niels Bohr
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:55 am

gorgeous wrote:"Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real." - Niels Bohr


No Gorgeous. You are lying again. What is the full quote where Bohr states he is talking about the standard model of the atom.....which he co invented
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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:12 am

xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:. . . Now you're being deliberately dense.

. . . Might I suggest a remedial reading course?
These kinds of comments do not facilitate civil discussion.
When I've explained the exact same concept four or five times, and she insists on misquoting me, it's difficult to draw a conclusion other than that she lacks reading comprehension skills. Or she's deliberately being an {!#%@}.

xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:A person with no brain cannot make choices.
A brain with no person cannot make choices.
A person with a brain that does not work cannot make choices.
Only a person with a brain that works can make choices.
Depends on how you define "person".

I suspect gorgeous means "person" is a non-physical entity that exists independent of the physical brain.

I could be wrong about her intention, so it would help if she clarified that point.
Given that this forum is dedicated to the promotion of science and critical thinking, and to the investigation of extraordinary claims and revolutionary ideas, I shouldn't need to define "person." If gorgeous is making an extraordinary claim, it's her job to support her hypothesis with evidence. In the context of science and critical thinking, there's no such thing as a "non-physical entity that exists independent of the physical brain." Nor am I willing to entertain the idea without scientific proof.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:16 am

xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:I might quibble with you about just how "made up" some of it is, though. There is an internal consistency and logic to much of New Age "knowledge", despite lack of scientific rigor.
That lack is the reason I use the phrase "made up." A well-written novel generally has internal consistency and logic, but it's still fiction.
Does lack of scientific rigor automatically imply a book is fiction?
Does internal consistency and logic automatically imply the information has validity? Beliefs and opinions might have internal consistency and logic, but that doesn't make them factual.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby xouper » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:55 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:I might quibble with you about just how "made up" some of it is, though. There is an internal consistency and logic to much of New Age "knowledge", despite lack of scientific rigor.


That lack is the reason I use the phrase "made up." A well-written novel generally has internal consistency and logic, but it's still fiction.


Does lack of scientific rigor automatically imply a book is fiction?


Does internal consistency and logic automatically imply the information has validity? Beliefs and opinions might have internal consistency and logic, but that doesn't make them factual.


Then we can agree, lack of scientific rigor is not sufficient criteria to determine whether the information in a book is factual or not.

Which brings us back to my original assertion about New Age books. If you want to know more about New Age philosophy and world view, the best place is to read those kinds of books. If you want to know more about the truth value of those books, then reading something from Michael Shermer would be appropriate.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby xouper » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:23 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:. . . Now you're being deliberately dense.

. . . Might I suggest a remedial reading course?


These kinds of comments do not facilitate civil discussion.


When I've explained the exact same concept four or five times, and she insists on misquoting me, it's difficult to draw a conclusion other than that she lacks reading comprehension skills. Or she's deliberately being an {!#%@}.


Or she is just being obtuse in her own way. Or any number of other harmless things, not all of which are worth wasting your time responding to.


Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:A person with no brain cannot make choices.
A brain with no person cannot make choices.
A person with a brain that does not work cannot make choices.
Only a person with a brain that works can make choices.


Depends on how you define "person".

I suspect gorgeous means "person" is a non-physical entity that exists independent of the physical brain.

I could be wrong about her intention, so it would help if she clarified that point.


Given that this forum is dedicated to the promotion of science and critical thinking, and to the investigation of extraordinary claims and revolutionary ideas, I shouldn't need to define "person."


I agree. The burden of definition is on gorgeous to clarify when she is using a non-standard definition. I was just trying to be helpful by pointing out how to interpret gorgeous-speak. Unless you want to get sucked into wasting time arguing semantics, it is usually simpler to just recognize when she is using words differently from the rest of us, which is often.


Nikki Nyx wrote: If gorgeous is making an extraordinary claim, it's her job to support her hypothesis with evidence. In the context of science and critical thinking, there's no such thing as a "non-physical entity that exists independent of the physical brain." Nor am I willing to entertain the idea without scientific proof.


Not a problem. I am not suggesting otherwise. I was just trying to be helpful by pointing out where there might be an unexpected semantic difficulty that is getting in the way of discussing the root issue. You can either go round and round talking past each other, or bypass that and challenger her ideas and not waste time on her word choices.

My motive here is not to give you a hard time — I'm on your side of the fence — but rather I'm trying to be helpful in streamlining your experience dealing with gorgeous.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:38 pm

xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:I might quibble with you about just how "made up" some of it is, though. There is an internal consistency and logic to much of New Age "knowledge", despite lack of scientific rigor.
That lack is the reason I use the phrase "made up." A well-written novel generally has internal consistency and logic, but it's still fiction.
Does lack of scientific rigor automatically imply a book is fiction?
Does internal consistency and logic automatically imply the information has validity? Beliefs and opinions might have internal consistency and logic, but that doesn't make them factual.
Then we can agree, lack of scientific rigor is not sufficient criteria to determine whether the information in a book is factual or not.
That's not what I said. I said that internal consistency and logic is insufficient to conclude that the information is factual. Scientific rigor, therefore, is necessary.

xouper wrote:Which brings us back to my original assertion about New Age books. If you want to know more about New Age philosophy and world view, the best place is to read those kinds of books. If you want to know more about the truth value of those books, then reading something from Michael Shermer would be appropriate.
I've read enough, thanks. Like religion, the New Age world view requires a suspension of disbelief, a denial of factual evidence combined with an overvaluation of anecdotal narrative, and an acceptance of logical fallacies, all of which amounts to cognitive dissonance.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:40 pm

xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:. . . Now you're being deliberately dense.

. . . Might I suggest a remedial reading course?
These kinds of comments do not facilitate civil discussion.
When I've explained the exact same concept four or five times, and she insists on misquoting me, it's difficult to draw a conclusion other than that she lacks reading comprehension skills. Or she's deliberately being an {!#%@}.
Or she is just being obtuse in her own way. Or any number of other harmless things, not all of which are worth wasting your time responding to.
First, I don't "waste my time" responding to all of her posts. Second, why are you "wasting your time" criticizing my responses to her posts?
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein


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