Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

What you think about how you think.
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OlegTheBatty
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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:59 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:. . . Now you're being deliberately dense.

. . . Might I suggest a remedial reading course?
These kinds of comments do not facilitate civil discussion.
When I've explained the exact same concept four or five times, and she insists on misquoting me, it's difficult to draw a conclusion other than that she lacks reading comprehension skills. Or she's deliberately being an {!#%@}.
Or she is just being obtuse in her own way. Or any number of other harmless things, not all of which are worth wasting your time responding to.
First, I don't "waste my time" responding to all of her posts. Second, why are you "wasting your time" criticizing my responses to her posts?


I mostly respond to gorgeous' posts to share the humor quotient. Otherwise it is worthless (to me). IMO, the forum needs a gorgeous or 2. It never hurts to have a straight man.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:07 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:. . . Now you're being deliberately dense.

. . . Might I suggest a remedial reading course?
These kinds of comments do not facilitate civil discussion.
When I've explained the exact same concept four or five times, and she insists on misquoting me, it's difficult to draw a conclusion other than that she lacks reading comprehension skills. Or she's deliberately being an {!#%@}.
Or she is just being obtuse in her own way. Or any number of other harmless things, not all of which are worth wasting your time responding to.
First, I don't "waste my time" responding to all of her posts. Second, why are you "wasting your time" criticizing my responses to her posts?

Because it trumps.... Other things. :-P
Hi, Io the lurker.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Dimebag » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:14 pm

This topic has descended into an unrecognisable free-for-all. Moderator, I'd suggest either enforce people to discuss the topic or something related to it or close this topic and move on. Furthermore, I find it a little disconcerting that people feel the need to speak for, interpret and apologise for gorgeous' comments on here. Her comments should be taken at face value, and if after closer inspection no value is found within them, I would advise ignoring them, or responding directly to them addressing her points critically as would normally be the case. She is a big girl, and if she is incapable of coherently responding to criticism, maybe she might be better served on those new age forums we've been talking about.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby xouper » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:22 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:I might quibble with you about just how "made up" some of it is, though. There is an internal consistency and logic to much of New Age "knowledge", despite lack of scientific rigor.
That lack is the reason I use the phrase "made up." A well-written novel generally has internal consistency and logic, but it's still fiction.
Does lack of scientific rigor automatically imply a book is fiction?
Does internal consistency and logic automatically imply the information has validity? Beliefs and opinions might have internal consistency and logic, but that doesn't make them factual.
Then we can agree, lack of scientific rigor is not sufficient criteria to determine whether the information in a book is factual or not.
That's not what I said.


OK, then it seems were were talking past each other and did not establish a common understanding. Until now.


Nikki Nyx wrote:I said that internal consistency and logic is insufficient to conclude that the information is factual. Scientific rigor, therefore, is necessary.


I agree. It was not my intention to claim (or imply) otherwise, although in hindsight, I can see how I mistakenly gave that impression.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby xouper » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:23 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:. . . Now you're being deliberately dense.

. . . Might I suggest a remedial reading course?
These kinds of comments do not facilitate civil discussion.
When I've explained the exact same concept four or five times, and she insists on misquoting me, it's difficult to draw a conclusion other than that she lacks reading comprehension skills. Or she's deliberately being an {!#%@}.
Or she is just being obtuse in her own way. Or any number of other harmless things, not all of which are worth wasting your time responding to.
First, I don't "waste my time" responding to all of her posts. Second, why are you "wasting your time" criticizing my responses to her posts?


I wasn't intending to criticize, but rather I was trying to be helpful.

I guess I didn't do a good enough job, so I'll just keep my opinions to myself from now on.

Please accept my apology.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby xouper » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:27 pm

Dimebag wrote:Furthermore, I find it a little disconcerting that people feel the need to speak for, interpret and apologise for gorgeous' comments on here.


It was not my intention to disconcert you. It was also not my intention to fail to live up to your expectations regarding my behavior on this forum. I apologize.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:32 pm

Dimebag wrote:This topic has descended into an unrecognisable free-for-all. Moderator, I'd suggest either enforce people to discuss the topic or something related to it or close this topic and move on. Furthermore, I find it a little disconcerting that people feel the need to speak for, interpret and apologise for gorgeous' comments on here. Her comments should be taken at face value, and if after closer inspection no value is found within them, I would advise ignoring them, or responding directly to them addressing her points critically as would normally be the case. She is a big girl, and if she is incapable of coherently responding to criticism, maybe she might be better served on those new age forums we've been talking about.

:hmm: Critical level reached.
Hi, Io the lurker.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:44 pm

xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:First, I don't "waste my time" responding to all of her posts. Second, why are you "wasting your time" criticizing my responses to her posts?
I wasn't intending to criticize, but rather I was trying to be helpful.

I guess I didn't do a good enough job, so I'll just keep my opinions to myself from now on.

Please accept my apology.
I accept your apology if you'll accept mine. I shouldn't have jumped on you like that without discerning your intention. It's often difficult to "read" intent solely from the text, without tone of voice, facial expression, and body language. I don't say that to excuse my snapping at you, because I know better.

I've been here for a couple months now, give or take, and have spent some time every day reading and responding, so I'm fairly familiar with gorgeous'...er...unusual world view. Unfortunately, she is posting in a science-based forum and does have a consistent tendency to deride and insult the fact-based world view. As such, she cannot claim victim status any more than the person who walks into an HA clubhouse and yells, "All bikers are scumbags."
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:04 am

Dimebag wrote:I find it a little disconcerting that people feel the need to speak for, interpret and apologise for gorgeous' comments on here.

Pyrrho stated about a year ago that he will act upon member's notifications concerning trolling, spamming and off topic comments. No one bothers to complain about Gorgeous, as he is a buffoon and fun to tease.

You can be the first to sent a notice to Pyrrho about Gorgeous.

Frankly that would be a good thing as Gorgeous's biggest fear is not being able to log on and get attention.
:D

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Dimebag » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:46 am

xouper wrote:
Dimebag wrote:Furthermore, I find it a little disconcerting that people feel the need to speak for, interpret and apologise for gorgeous' comments on here.


It was not my intention to disconcert you. It was also not my intention to fail to live up to your expectations regarding my behavior on this forum. I apologize.

No need to apologise xouper, this is merely a nudge to make everyone aware that the current conversation has little to do with the initial topic. I recognise that it was not your intention to lead the conversation off topic, but rather it seems you have, over the years, become accustomed to interpreting gorgeous' posts. This on its own I have no problem with, however, it seems a fine line between interpreting a point of view, and defending it, and that line I think is drawn by a critical appraisal.

At any rate, no harm done.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby xouper » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:18 am

Dimebag wrote:
xouper wrote:
Dimebag wrote:Furthermore, I find it a little disconcerting that people feel the need to speak for, interpret and apologise for gorgeous' comments on here.


It was not my intention to disconcert you. It was also not my intention to fail to live up to your expectations regarding my behavior on this forum. I apologize.

No need to apologise xouper, this is merely a nudge to make everyone aware that the current conversation has little to do with the initial topic. I recognise that it was not your intention to lead the conversation off topic, but rather it seems you have, over the years, become accustomed to interpreting gorgeous' posts. This on its own I have no problem with, however, it seems a fine line between interpreting a point of view, and defending it, and that line I think is drawn by a critical appraisal.

At any rate, no harm done.


I have always tried to be clear that I do not defend or endorse her views. My motive is merely to be helpful in those instances where some additional clarity might be useful. It is not uncommon for a thread to take a temporary detour while some semantic issues get resolved. I apologize if it seemed my intention was to do any more than that.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:21 am

So, getting back to the OP...
"The vast majority of thoughts circling in our brains happen below the radar of conscious awareness, meaning that even though our brain is processing them, we are not aware," said Michael Shadlen, MD, PhD, a Principal Investigator at Columbia's Mortimer B. Zuckerman Mind Brain Behavior Institute and the paper's senior author. "How some of that information bubbles to the level of consciousness, however, remains an unsolved mystery. But now, we've found a way to observe that moment in real time, and then apply those findings to our understanding of consciousness itself."

For Dr. Shadlen, the most complex thoughts that the human brain can experience -- such as love, grief, guilt or morality -- can be ultimately be boiled down to a series of decisions, made by the brain, to engage with the outside world. He has spent his career working to understand how signals sent by the brain's billions of cells result in such decisions. In so doing, he hopes to unravel the mechanisms that underlie the brain's most complex abilities.

In 2008, Dr. Shadlen and colleagues found that when asked to make a challenging decision, the brain does not use all the available information before deciding. This is not because the brain is unable to do so, but rather because at a certain point, the brain thinks it has all the information it needs. There is a mechanism in the brain that says "enough is enough."

"For us, this then begged a question," recalled Dr. Shadlen, who is also a professor of neuroscience at Columbia University Medical Center and an investigator at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute. "Could the moment when the brain believes it has accumulated enough evidence be tied to the person's awareness of having decided -- that important 'aha!' moment?"
I'm incredibly curious as to how this works when the subconscious filter is dysfunctional, as in ADHD. Does the lack of subconscious filter mean that the mechanism in the brain that says "enough is enough" is also dysfunctional? That the brain makes erroneous decisions to engage with the outside world regarding information of which it's unnecessary to be consciously aware? And how does that affect decision-making? I mean, I can speak to personal experience, but that's hardly evidence. For me, an overload of information makes it much more difficult to make a decision, even an easy one like what to have for dinner. Which would appear support such a hypothesis. (I hope this makes sense. I'm tired.)
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:26 am

And also that a brain that naturally does or decides to give up much more of the accumulated and existing information when prompted, is considered smart? Or when more than necessary for normal/regular functioning, might be looked at as "intuitive" or even "psychic" when the information seems "spooky"?
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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical leve

Postby Dimebag » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:43 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:So, getting back to the OP...
"The vast majority of thoughts circling in our brains happen below the radar of conscious awareness, meaning that even though our brain is processing them, we are not aware," said Michael Shadlen, MD, PhD, a Principal Investigator at Columbia's Mortimer B. Zuckerman Mind Brain Behavior Institute and the paper's senior author. "How some of that information bubbles to the level of consciousness, however, remains an unsolved mystery. But now, we've found a way to observe that moment in real time, and then apply those findings to our understanding of consciousness itself."

For Dr. Shadlen, the most complex thoughts that the human brain can experience -- such as love, grief, guilt or morality -- can be ultimately be boiled down to a series of decisions, made by the brain, to engage with the outside world. He has spent his career working to understand how signals sent by the brain's billions of cells result in such decisions. In so doing, he hopes to unravel the mechanisms that underlie the brain's most complex abilities.

In 2008, Dr. Shadlen and colleagues found that when asked to make a challenging decision, the brain does not use all the available information before deciding. This is not because the brain is unable to do so, but rather because at a certain point, the brain thinks it has all the information it needs. There is a mechanism in the brain that says "enough is enough."

"For us, this then begged a question," recalled Dr. Shadlen, who is also a professor of neuroscience at Columbia University Medical Center and an investigator at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute. "Could the moment when the brain believes it has accumulated enough evidence be tied to the person's awareness of having decided -- that important 'aha!' moment?"
I'm incredibly curious as to how this works when the subconscious filter is dysfunctional, as in ADHD. Does the lack of subconscious filter mean that the mechanism in the brain that says "enough is enough" is also dysfunctional? That the brain makes erroneous decisions to engage with the outside world regarding information of which it's unnecessary to be consciously aware? And how does that affect decision-making? I mean, I can speak to personal experience, but that's hardly evidence. For me, an overload of information makes it much more difficult to make a decision, even an easy one like what to have for dinner. Which would appear support such a hypothesis. (I hope this makes sense. I'm tired.)

You make an interesting postulation in regards to the dysfunction and possible underlying cause of ADHD, beyond what is currently known in the neurotransmitter department.

Obviously what becomes conscious is determined by unconscious processes, and the contents of consciousness at any one point in time is the result of several competing unconscious strings of information, so if the attentional mechanism is dysfunctional in the way of adhd, maybe, like you say, the limit of which information becomes conscious, has been reduced, resulting in many more unconscious strains of information becoming conscious in a given time. Another way of looking at it is, the sensitivity has been increased, like an amplifier being turned up too loud and creating unwanted noise.

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical level

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:35 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:And also that a brain that naturally does or decides to give up much more of the accumulated and existing information when prompted, is considered smart? Or when more than necessary for normal/regular functioning, might be looked at as "intuitive" or even "psychic" when the information seems "spooky"?
Perhaps this is where déjà vu and other such phenomena come from.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Information becomes conscious by reaching a critical leve

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:57 pm

Dimebag wrote:You make an interesting postulation in regards to the dysfunction and possible underlying cause of ADHD, beyond what is currently known in the neurotransmitter department.

Obviously what becomes conscious is determined by unconscious processes, and the contents of consciousness at any one point in time is the result of several competing unconscious strings of information, so if the attentional mechanism is dysfunctional in the way of adhd, maybe, like you say, the limit of which information becomes conscious, has been reduced, resulting in many more unconscious strains of information becoming conscious in a given time. Another way of looking at it is, the sensitivity has been increased, like an amplifier being turned up too loud and creating unwanted noise.
Yes, exactly! There's too much unnecessary information becoming conscious, so the necessary information sometimes can't get through the static. It's exceedingly frustrating at times. I have tried to make some observations about it, and have noticed a few things:

• Sometimes my autopilot works, and sometimes it doesn't. Driving to a familiar place, like the grocery store, my autopilot works fine. Frequently, though, I'll get up from my chair and start walking through the house, then stop, because I've completely forgotten why I got up. Fortunately, most of the times, there's a cue: empty coffee cup in my hand, bladder pressure, etc.

• There's a state of mind that's almost the complete opposite of the normal "too much information" where I become so completely focused on the task at hand that I don't hear my own name being called. I assume this is a defense mechanism, but I have no idea how to consciously activate it. It doesn't appear to hinge on my interest in the activity.

• The level of being distracted by extraneous information is not merely dependent upon whether I took my medication. It's also affected by sleep deprivation, hunger, thirst, and mood. If all those things are in good order, the symptoms are greatly reduced.

• You all can probably tell when it's affecting me; I tend to rabbit trail in my posts. So, if I'm not making sense, it's because my thoughts are going in a hundred directions at once. I do always preview my posts, and edit if it seems to be necessary, but that doesn't always help, unfortunately. Eh...it is what it is, and it could be worse. Squirrel! :mrgreen:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein


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