Stupid mutants.

What you think about how you think.
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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:43 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:All anyone actually interested in this subject needs to do is: DEFINE "adaption" as it applies to the immune system.
I just did in my latest post. I defined both "adaptation" and "learning" as they are used in biology.

Yes, well done. But the insurmountable hinderance will be the boys not doing so as well, even with your excellent example. I have a hazy recollection that after about 15 requests, Lance did modify his use of a term......then 5 posts latter lapsed back into his overgeneralization. And thats a key..... not so much wrong, as just wrong context. Like saying learning instead of adaptive. We can make sense of such usage, but we can't know if that is in fact what Lance meant.

Words have that power...... and more.

I love Lance's latest dodge above: "I know many definitions....so I won't use any of them."

Ha, ha. I'm with Matt on this one. One text book, just isn't enough. I think too many of Lance's classmates have the same authoritarian superiority complex...... along with target fixation and lack of flexibility that I see in a lot of lesser rans.
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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:28 pm

EM
Pick up an elementary textbook on chemistry.

Reactions between molecules happen when molecules contact each other physically. Lymphocytes do the same. They have to contact a pathogen to react to it. Not a problem, of course, since there are about a trillion lymphocytes, and the an enormous number of pathogens. Such contact is inevitable and frequent.

On explanations.
I am not, as you put it, "good at explaining things ", and do not claim to be be. Immunology is something I have a basic understanding of, but I am not an immunologist. My claim, though, is that I know more about it than you do.

For example, you consistantly refer to the pre immune antibody repertoire, but seem to lack the knowledge of what the word "pre immune " means. In this context, what it means is BEFORE the immune response. Once the immune response kicks in, the pre immune antibody repertoire becomes totally irrelevant, since it is the specific antibody being manufactured by the lymphocytes that counts.

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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby ElectricMonk » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:45 am

Lance,
I have explained how it actually works, and I would be willing to do it again.

But you have to stop deluding yourself that you have a firm grasp of the principles of molecular interactions.
"Bumping into each other" isn't what triggers interaction: if that was the case, our body would be a pile of bubbling goo. Without some surface molecules specific enough to interact with the surface molecules of other cells/viruses, particles in the body do indeed just bump of one another like elastic billiard balls: only if there is sufficient attraction between surface molecule on different particles will they stick long enough for interaction to occur.

And why is it so important for you to deny the importance of the pre-immune antibody repertoire?
Because I brought it up?
don't you see that you've fallen into an availability bias, by only considering things you remember to be important?

Saying that the pre-immune antibody repertoire becomes irrelevant shows that you don't understand how it works, and why it is necessary.
I can explain, again, but I need some sign that you are open for it.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:38 am

ElectricMonk wrote:But you have to stop deluding yourself that you have a firm grasp of the principles of molecular interactions. "Bumping into each other" isn't what triggers interaction:

Still ignorant beyond basics so basic its an insult to basics, but English language wise: can you have an immune reaction/response if foreign bodies and antigens never bump into each other?

ElectricMonk wrote: And why is it so important for you to deny the importance of the pre-immune antibody repertoire?

Again, my plain English read is Lance did not deny its importance but said it became irrelevant (TO THE SUBJECT BEING DISCUSSED) once an immune response was underway. This only makes common sense. Once a fire alarm goes off and the building is totally engulfed in flames, the fire alarm become irrelevant.

ElectricMonk wrote:don't you see that you've fallen into an availability bias, by only considering things you remember to be important?

Lance did explain how pre-immune repertoire became unimportant. Availability bias does not apply.

ElectricMonk wrote: I can explain, again, but I need some sign that you are open for it.

Well, I'd be interested.....if you answer each question/issue above. How is the fire alarm important after the building is engulfed? Ha, ha.........and yes, I do see differences that are relevant, but after pointing those out if you wish to do so, please get back to the relevent point.
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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby ElectricMonk » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:39 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Still ignorant beyond basics so basic its an insult to basics, but English language wise: can you have an immune reaction/response if foreign bodies and antigens never bump into each other?

Bumping into each other isn't sufficient - I've explained that above.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Again, my plain English read is Lance did not deny its importance but said it became irrelevant (TO THE SUBJECT BEING DISCUSSED) once an immune response was underway. This only makes common sense. Once a fire alarm goes off and the building is totally engulfed in flames, the fire alarm become irrelevant.

So the Fire Department is irrelevant once the Fire Truck left the station? Poor analogy.
The repertoire is important at all times, because it is more than just the alarm bell, it is also capable of becoming the memory of past infections.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Lance did explain how pre-immune repertoire became unimportant. Availability bias does not apply.

no, he didn't - not in any relevant detail.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Well, I'd be interested.....if you answer each question/issue above. How is the fire alarm important after the building is engulfed? Ha, ha.........and yes, I do see differences that are relevant, but after pointing those out if you wish to do so, please get back to the relevent point.

What, in your opinion, is relevant?

I consider it important for the issue how the BASIC specific immune response can be inherited in a way that is both effective against pathogens and harmless for the body.
Lance's short-cut explanations don't address these issues at all.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:32 am

My favorite "group" game in High School was dodge ball.

Then.............. I grew up.
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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby ElectricMonk » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:55 am

bobbo, I have no clue what you want at this point.
Not sure I care either.

All the information has already been provided, so calling what I do a "dodge" is, to put it very kindly, a misrepresentation.
I understand that Lance is making a Last Stand by agreeing that the Pre-immune repertoire exists, but, in his case, doesn't matter. But that is not how scientific discussion works: if you want to increase knowledge, you have to call out false statements.
On the other hand, if you just want to have the last word...
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:17 am

Bobbo
Thank you for your reasonable and rational comments.

Couple of explanatory points.

1. I did not say that bumping into was sufficient. I said it happened when a beta lymphocyte bumped into a pathogen , mostly a bacterial cell or a virus particle. However, the lymphocyte is surrounded by a layer of antibodies with the reactive sites facing outwards. When it bumps into something with antigens, those antibodies will 'attempt ' to bind. The reaction between antigen and antibodies activates a process of adaptation .

2. On the pre immune antibody repertoire.

Let me explain by analogy.
Imagine a photographer who is given the task of using a photo to create a book cover.
He checks his pre print photographic repertoire (his stock), which we will say is 1000 photos. He tests those photos intently till he finds one that is almost good enough. He puts that photo into Photoshop to be tweaked till it is almost perfect. Then the photo is reproduced by the printing of book covers till vast numbers exist.

A similar process occurs in immunology.
The pre immune antibody repertoire exists as a starting point, just like the photographers stock. It is tested by exposure to antigens. A suitable antibody is chosen, and tweaked by the affinity maturation process, which selects out lymphocytes that are not producing the best antibodies. Then, the lymphocytes, up to a trillion of them, churn out antibodies of the correct kind, that has high affinity to the antigen, at a rate of up to 2000 molecules per second per cell. Like the book covers, vast numbers of antibodies of the correct kind.

The pre immune antibody repertoire is a starting point only. After the immune response is under way, it is no longer needed, since the process requires only antibodies with high antigen affinity.

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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:16 am

Lance: yes, once again you deign to explain what is clearly the basis of my comments.

To avoid that, you too could actually address the points I made rather than ............... do as you do. What you will find is that you don't disagree with the analogies/points I made and that your points therefore act only to obscure this.

If that is what you intend to do..... fine. Otherwise..............a simple Thank You would not only support the points I made asking for clarification/recognition from EM but would also be thanks as well.

You two make the same argumentative sideslip, you won't connect until you directly address the other's points. Kinda like: defining the terms you use, then actually using those terms as defined in direct contemplation of what the other has posted.

Try it.
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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby ElectricMonk » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:19 pm

The central, critical job of the pre-immune repertoire is to function as the Friend-or-Foe recognition system of the organism: since there are no clear differences between the components of different organisms, a non-general immune system must first and foremost know what is NOT foreign. Only antibody-producing cells that fail to recognize host cells can be allowed to survive. But the only time an organism can be sure that only its own cells are present is long before it comes into contact with the outside world.
So the immune system has two distinct, opposite modes of operation: one pre- and one post contact with outside agents.
Consider the specific immune system like an army of radar operators being trained to recognize friend from foe: each can recognize one shape of plane.
During training camp, they are shown only friendly planes, and if an operator recognizes one he is instantly fired. Only operators who can't "see" friendly planes are allowed into the field.
This way, whatever they do recognize in action must, by definition, be hostile.
So what is bad for a lymphocyte prior to outside contact is good for it after it, and vize versa.

An operator who found an enemy plane is then "cloned", but in a very inaccurate manner. And all his clones are shown the same plane, again. The clone who can pick out the plane first is promoted to "Memory-keeper", and he is then cloned accurately a number of times.
Only this very last part is"adaptive" in a non-evolutionary sense.

So to say that this trained ignorance of the own body is irrelevant misses the entire setup of the system.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:38 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Quoting verbatim from a textbook is not an argument.
This is reminiscent of my daughter's 6th Grade teacher who, when skimming my daughter's report that accompanied her homemade catapult, insisted she find another word for "centurion." My daughter looked at her teacher and replied, "I'm open to suggestion."

There is only so much that can be paraphrased in a medical discussion before the meaning is lost. "Preimmune antibody repertoire" is not a phrase subject to replacement. Neither are the terms "B cell," "antigen," "immune system," "antigen-receptor," etc.

You are still underestimating—actually, at this point, you are discounting entirely—the innate immune system.
Lance Kennedy wrote:Once the immune response kicks in, the pre immune antibody repertoire becomes totally irrelevant, since it is the specific antibody being manufactured by the lymphocytes that counts.
This is 100% wrong. The preimmune antibody repertoire is essential. It is NOT a completely new and different antibody that is synthesized, one that doesn't already exist in the repertoire. Instead, affinity maturation takes the existing template from the preimmune antibody repertoire and progressively increases the match with the invading pathogen over time...and with repeated encounters with that pathogen. This is why we have several boosters of the same vaccine...to increase affinity maturation for that particular pathogen.

Furthermore, the immune system doesn't simply sit around idle waiting for affinity maturation, since B cells are not the only tool in its arsenal. You're also completely ignoring the primary immune response, which occurs long before affinity maturation. EM talked about this too...that the immune system includes pattern recognition receptors capable of distinguishing between endogenous molecules and types of molecules common to invading pathogens. The primary immune response includes direct action against pathogens by macrophages and neutrophils, among others. These cells engulf the invading pathogens, then release lysosomes and other biochemical weaponry.
https://youtu.be/BDr44vLNnPY
If anything, you're the one underestimating the complexity of the immune system and its layered response to pathogens, as well as the genetic basis for its functioning.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:54 am

Congratulations, Nikki. You started an actual debate intelligently, without relying on cut and paste.

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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:02 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Ha, ha. I'm with Matt on this one. One text book, just isn't enough. I think too many of Lance's classmates have the same authoritarian superiority complex...... along with target fixation and lack of flexibility that I see in a lot of lesser rans.
Since I began acquiring chronic illnesses 18 years ago, and they became disabling 16 years ago, I've spent quite a lot of time reading medical studies. I've been fortunate enough to have a rheumatologist these past 16 years who considers me part of my own health care team, and who recognizes my intelligence and willingness to learn. The first book he recommended to me was a medical text on fibromyalgia...and it was slow going at first. I read the book through the first time with the help of an online medical dictionary, taking copious notes. While I would never elevate myself to the level of my rheumatologist, I would say that I now understand the neurological and endocrinological dysfunctions that underlie the disorder...and probably better than a GP would.

I found EM's textbook fairly straightforward and easy to read, although I did have to reread some of the more technical parts. The subject was so fascinating that I ended reading not just the section to which he linked, but the entire chapter on immunology. Since two of my chronic illnesses are autoimmune, it's relevant...and anything personally relevant is easier to grasp, IMO.

I won't pretend to a comprehensive understanding of the subject, certainly not at the level EM clearly evinces. I've reviewed his comments since reading the chapter, and even his more casual comments show a depth of knowledge I'll never have; I have to keep referring to the text. However, every time I do so, I find his comments to be spot on. I think the problem Lance is having is that he's not understanding that EM is speaking of a much broader picture of the immune system, its layered and interconnected functioning, and how it has evolved to this point.

As for me, I'm thankful to have learned about a topic I didn't really know much about. Now, if my immune system would stop kicking my own ass... :mrgreen:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:07 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Congratulations, Nikki. You started an actual debate intelligently, without relying on cut and paste.

Congratulations, Lance. You wasted yet another post with manipulative bull-shit.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:04 am

Nikki: I firmly believe what one person knows, another person can learn. Its a nice fit that this thread touches upon dna and how this "information system" works. Another information system is culture. another is BOOKS. Culture and BOOKS..two ways information is transfered non-biologically. (My mind floating away touching upon infinity...)

So yes, with general ability and specific applicability, one can and should read up on things personal. Wealth of information out there, and today, its generally accessible. It is as you mentioned easy to get off track, but with an open mind, that can be easily corrected by the experts should they so accommodate. My own life experience is that most professionals don't share their expertise very openly. Variety of reasons for that. This has led to conflicts in my life....mostly but not exclusively the other guys' fault and responsibility, several times resulting in legal action, all won. Even winning has its price given it all starts with an injury.

People.

What ya gonna do?

I challenge people/issues more than most here, my own proclivity with its Pros and Cons. I'm always conscious of when I do it. Try to make a deliberate decision..... then always ready to reverse course should any arrow hit its mark. One of Lance's eminent qualities is not over reacting to what too many will take fake umbrage over. Thats a good thing.
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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:59 am

This argument began with EM saying the immune system " cannot learn." And what EM meant by that was that the immune system was static and non adaptive. He showed this in his follow up posts. No, EM has no significant understanding of the topic, no matter how much he quotes textbooks he cannot understand. However, he has now admitted that the immune system is, indeed, adaptive. As far as I am concerned, I have achieved my goal in this debate, and I have no interest in anyone (including myself) warbling on, arguing about trivia. So, Nikki, feel free to pretend to a deep understanding. I am out of here.

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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:39 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Nikki: I firmly believe what one person knows, another person can learn.
I believe that too...to an extent. I have a tendency to be harshly self-analytical, so I'm aware of my strengths and weaknesses. For example, I generally know what problems I can fix and when I need to call an expert. Case in point: Several months ago, I was having an issue with my fridge, a freezer-on-the-bottom model. Items near the bottom of the fridge were freezing. Both temps were set correctly, all parts were clean, and I could hear the compressor running. I determined it was either one of the thermostats or the seal between the two compartments...and called the expert. It was the thermostat.

This argument reminds me of my ex, who lived with me. He wanted to change the wiring of the lights on the basement stairs and walkway to the exterior door so you could turn them on and off either from the top of the stairs or from the exterior door. So, two lights and two switches. He thought he could run wire from the junction box to the switch, then through the two lights to the other switch and call it a day. I explained to him he needed to wire a closed loop or it wouldn't work. He disagreed. I got tired of arguing with him and told him to try it his way which, of course, didn't work. He still refused to believe I was right until I found a wiring diagram online that proved it, even though he was aware that I wired the finished room in the basement. :roll:

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Its a nice fit that this thread touches upon dna and how this "information system" works. Another information system is culture. another is BOOKS. Culture and BOOKS..two ways information is transfered non-biologically. (My mind floating away touching upon infinity...)
It's funny...I've always learned better from books and from one-on-one demonstrations than I have in the classroom. I think it's because the classroom pace is either too slow or too fast for me, depending on the subject, and because there are too many distractions.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:People.

What ya gonna do?
Well, there are three approaches:
1. Become belligerent when people don't behave the way you expect.
2. Realize that behavior is individual and act and react accordingly.
3. Abandon the whole thing and become a hermit.
I think that #2 is the healthiest approach, honestly. #1 is likely to cause high blood pressure, ulcers, and other health issues, since you'll always be belligerent...lol. And #3, while peaceful, will eventually be lonely.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I challenge people/issues more than most here, my own proclivity with its Pros and Cons.
That's a good thing, though, Bobbo. The last thing we skeptics need is to become an echo chamber. And if we're not forced to explain and defend our viewpoints...
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:00 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:This argument began with EM saying the immune system " cannot learn." And what EM meant by that was that the immune system was static and non adaptive. He showed this in his follow up posts. No, EM has no significant understanding of the topic, no matter how much he quotes textbooks he cannot understand. However, he has now admitted that the immune system is, indeed, adaptive. As far as I am concerned, I have achieved my goal in this debate, and I have no interest in anyone (including myself) warbling on, arguing about trivia. So, Nikki, feel free to pretend to a deep understanding. I am out of here.

So, your definition of being a skeptic is:
• Repeatedly changing your own argument, while claiming that your argument has remained the same.
• Disingenuously rephrasing your opponents' arguments to place yourself in a better light.
• Indulging in projection, misrepresentation, goalpost-moving, ad hominem attack, and condescension.
• Ignoring scientific evidence your opponents have presented that counters your argument.
• Failing to present scientific evidence to support your own argument.
• When you're clearly losing, flouncing from the debate, pretending you've won.

You should change your avatar from shark to plankton.

For everyone else who's actually interested in the topic of the human immune system, here are the links to the chapter and all its sections:
The Adaptive Immune System (Chapter Overview)
Lymphocytes and the Cellular Basis of Adaptive Immunity
B Cells and Antibodies
The Generation of Antibody Diversity
T Cells and MHC Proteins
Helper T Cells and Lymphocyte Activation
Innate Immunity

You should read it too, Lance, to clear up your misconceptions.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:22 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Nikki: I firmly believe what one person knows, another person can learn.
I believe that too...to an extent.

Gee Nikki, when you respond to everything I post, I got nothing to add!

Ha, ha: as if.==> So, where is the "extent?" both examples you give are of people learning from others. All mostly an issue of interest and time available vs conflicting demands. Sounds like your hubby wanted to wire in a hot short? Ha, ha. I do love "the smoke test." Where reality proves theory.

It doesn't fit, but I'm reminded of: "Liars, Damn Liars, and Statistics" as if statistics is anything anyone should be able to understand without ever studying the subject. NO ONE knows anything about anything without some study, some introduction to it. And on first introduction, its amusing to me (a fourth option on the list?) how many people will reject something as precise as statistics because they are ignorant about it. Happens too often on too many subjects. Climate Change comes immediately to mind................followed somewhere long down the list with immunology.
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Re: Stupid mutants.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:35 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Nikki: I firmly believe what one person knows, another person can learn.
I believe that too...to an extent.

Gee Nikki, when you respond to everything I post, I got nothing to add!

Ha, ha: as if.==> So, where is the "extent?"
I think the "extent" lies in where one's skills are or are not...and whether there is any brain dysfunction. Here's a conundrum for you, and I wonder if you'll be able to resolve it...or, maybe, pinpoint it. I think the concepts I'm about to discuss are related, but they may not be.

I have a bizarre and highly specific problem with spatial perception and relations comprehension. Situations where I've noticed it:
• Remember those SAT problems that require you to extrapolate, from the given information, the appearance of the unseen portions of a three-dimensional figure? (This is what this side looks like; what does the other side look like?) They baffle me.
• When I was installing ceiling panels in the finished room in my basement, and had to cut holes for where the light fixtures would be, I had to keep looking from the panel I was cutting up to the ceiling to maintain the proper orientation of the holes. It wouldn't stay in my brain.
• Drawing floor plans, I can't "see" the relationships unless I draw a proportionately-sized human figure in each room. Even though I know at least a meter is necessary for a hallway, I can't "see" it properly without that figure.
• I had difficulty translating 12 years of classical piano training to the guitar. On the piano, each key presents a different configuration of black and white keys. On the guitar, every scale is the same pattern, regardless of key. You'd think that would make it easier, but the dimensions are different. The piano has only one "middle C," while the guitar has five.
As I said, I think these issues of perception are related, but they might not be. They have always been stumbling blocks for me insofar as learning goes. Weirdly, I don't have any spatial perception issues with driving or parking a car, and have never caused an accident in 36 years of driving. But my proprioception is dysfunctional; I constantly bump into things when walking through my own house.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:It doesn't fit, but I'm reminded of: "Liars, Damn Liars, and Statistics" as if statistics is anything anyone should be able to understand without ever studying the subject. NO ONE knows anything about anything without some study, some introduction to it. And on first introduction, its amusing to me (a fourth option on the list?) how many people will reject something as precise as statistics because they are ignorant about it. Happens too often on too many subjects. Climate Change comes immediately to mind................followed somewhere long down the list with immunology.
Ha! Far too many people throw statistics around without having any understanding at all that the numbers mean nothing without appropriate context...and that an unscrupulous person can take the number out of context to skew their meaning. This past election, I had more people throw polls at me in attempts to prove their point. The problem was, none of them had bothered to examine the methodology...just the results.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein


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