Consciousness and the transfer of information

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matrixmind
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Consciousness and the transfer of information

Postby matrixmind » Tue May 16, 2017 9:46 am

There are many theories of consciousness that are based on some sort of transfer of information. Such as Giulio Tononi's, Integrated Information Theory.
I have a simple question that never seems to be answered in any scientific literature regarding conscious. Almost as if the answer should be taken for granted.

What is information?

I would have imagined that a information is purely subjective and cannot be a physically quantified property. There is never any greater meaning to anything that happens in the universe. Things just happen.

Information in physics means the physical properties of a system. E.g. charge and momentum. But none of this is transferred within a neurological system. Neurons carry an electrical impulse, not the charges themselves, in the same way that a stack of falling dominos carries energy not the dominos themselves. Suggesting that there is intrinsic meaning behind an impulse is to suggest that there is a fundamental intrinsic meaning to geometry within the universe.

Furthermore a lot of theories suggest that a system has to be fully integrated and irreducible. A country full of interconnected people can't lead to a collective consciousness according to the theory for this reason. I don't understand this as all systems are matter of scale and perspective. A brain is irreducible with respect to the neurons themselves, but the neurons are each reducible to interconnected atoms. So according to the theory only each individual elementary particle within each atom can possess consciousness.

Yet, I think therefore I am.

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Re: Consciousness and the transfer of information

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed May 17, 2017 12:35 am

matrixmind wrote:What is information?


You have made a classical error. You have confused the method of conveying information (photon light waves, heat, sound pressure waves, chemical reactions in smell and taste) with the encoding of information into those conveyancing methods. For example, individual letters on a page do not convey any information as it is their arrangement that contains the information.

matrixmind wrote:Information in physics means the physical properties of a system. E.g. charge and momentum. But none of this is transferred within a neurological system.
That's right as the evolution of biological mechanisms takes the raw physics data from the environment and converts it into assessable information. However this does not change the nature of the raw physics going on outside.


matrixmind wrote:Suggesting that there is intrinsic meaning behind an impulse (phenomena of physics) is to suggest that there is a fundamental intrinsic meaning to geometry within the universe.
Thankfully, no one thinks that other than silly religious people.

Physics is just physics and defined by the big bang 13 billion years ago. Physics has no meaning. It just is.

Consciousness is simply the name given to the large set of various brain,CNS activities resulting from external data stimulus that evolved in humans. An atom can't be conscious because it doesn't perform any such activities.

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Dimebag
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Re: Consciousness and the transfer of information

Postby Dimebag » Wed May 17, 2017 8:46 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Consciousness is simply the name given to the large set of various brain,CNS activities resulting from external data stimulus that evolved in humans. An atom can't be conscious because it doesn't perform any such activities.

Consciousness isn't that simple though, so you can't just write it off with the twiddle of a keyboard finger.

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Re: Consciousness and the transfer of information

Postby gorgeous » Wed May 17, 2017 11:12 am

it is energy....mind to mind is the style of obe's and alien info transfer...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Consciousness and the transfer of information

Postby Cadmusteeth » Wed May 17, 2017 4:16 pm

Dimebag wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:Consciousness is simply the name given to the large set of various brain,CNS activities resulting from external data stimulus that evolved in humans. An atom can't be conscious because it doesn't perform any such activities.

Consciousness isn't that simple though, so you can't just write it off with the twiddle of a keyboard finger.

So how can an atom have consciousness? For something to think and feel it needs to have brain cells.
Things can move and interact with their environment with having to think or feeling.
To show otherwise will take more than what induction and straight up logic could tell us.

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Re: Consciousness and the transfer of information

Postby Monster » Wed May 17, 2017 4:35 pm

gorgeous wrote:it is energy....mind to mind is the style of obe's and alien info transfer...

Do you think it's possible to construct a ray gun that uses this energy?
Listening twice as much as you speak is a sign of wisdom.

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Re: Consciousness and the transfer of information

Postby gorgeous » Wed May 17, 2017 9:41 pm

probably....obe people have said they are at times thrown a rote...a ball of information on a subject, a ball of energy...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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gorgeous
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Re: Consciousness and the transfer of information

Postby gorgeous » Wed May 17, 2017 9:43 pm

photons choose a path.....do they have a brain?....no....but are likely infused with God energy or consciousness on a level not yet found.......... -------------One for All: Five Entangled Photons Collectively Choose a Path to ...



https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... anglement/


May 13, 2010 - Quantum entanglement, a phenomenon by which two or more particles share correlated properties through some instantaneous link, is tricky ...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Consciousness and the transfer of information

Postby Nobrot » Wed May 17, 2017 11:46 pm

Dimebag wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:Consciousness is simply the name given to the large set of various brain,CNS activities resulting from external data stimulus that evolved in humans. An atom can't be conscious because it doesn't perform any such activities.

Consciousness isn't that simple though, so you can't just write it off with the twiddle of a keyboard finger.

If your understanding of 'Consciousness', is something that exists outside of the brain then yes, we can and do write it off with a few keystrokes.

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Re: Consciousness and the transfer of information

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu May 18, 2017 12:00 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Consciousness is simply the name given to the large set of various brain,CNS activities resulting from external data stimulus that evolved in humans. An atom can't be conscious because it doesn't perform any such activities.
Dimebag wrote:Consciousness isn't that simple though, so you can't just write it off with the twiddle of a keyboard finger.

Please set out your definition of consciousness and then apply that same definition to explain how an atom can be conscious. That will be very entertaining to read. :lol:

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Dimebag
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Re: Consciousness and the transfer of information

Postby Dimebag » Thu May 18, 2017 1:12 am

Nobrot wrote:
Dimebag wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:Consciousness is simply the name given to the large set of various brain,CNS activities resulting from external data stimulus that evolved in humans. An atom can't be conscious because it doesn't perform any such activities.

Consciousness isn't that simple though, so you can't just write it off with the twiddle of a keyboard finger.

If your understanding of 'Consciousness', is something that exists outside of the brain then yes, we can and do write it off with a few keystrokes.

No, it obviously exists within the brain, as it is reliant on the biology and matter of the brain. As to date, neuroscience has not given any explanation as to why a subjective conscious experience occurs, or how the brain gives rise to this experience, nor does it seem well equipped enough to tackle that question. It may and most likely will, hopefully within our lifetimes, answer the questions pertaining to which parts of the brain are responsible for conscious experience occurring, and the way in which they operate when that experience occurs. It seems that advocates of the current line of investigation in neuroscience are pinning their hopes on the expectation that the subjectivity of conscious experience will evaporate once said knowledge is attained. We can't say until that happens.

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Re: Consciousness and the transfer of information

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu May 18, 2017 7:31 am

Dimebag wrote:As to date, neuroscience has not given any explanation as to why a subjective conscious experience occurs,

"The Brain and the Inner World: An Introduction to the Neuroscience of the Subjective Experience. "
https://books.google.com.au/books?hl=en ... rs&f=false

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Dimebag
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Re: Consciousness and the transfer of information

Postby Dimebag » Thu May 18, 2017 10:25 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Dimebag wrote:As to date, neuroscience has not given any explanation as to why a subjective conscious experience occurs,

"The Brain and the Inner World: An Introduction to the Neuroscience of the Subjective Experience. "
https://books.google.com.au/books?hl=en ... rs&f=false

Thanks for the link Matthew, have you read this book yet, it actually seems quite good and not too wispy washy or downright eliminative materialist, though I'm only at chapter 2, however he so far seems to be agreeing with what I have previously said, that the easy problem of consciousness is within reach, but the hard problem seems far off, though I'll withhold any further judgement till I read further.

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Re: Consciousness and the transfer of information

Postby gorgeous » Thu May 18, 2017 12:53 pm

consciousness is not in the brain ....it is in the mind...the non-physical mind....people out of body are fully conscious ...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

Matthew Ellard
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Re: Consciousness and the transfer of information

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu May 18, 2017 11:50 pm

gorgeous wrote:consciousness is not in the brain ....it is in the mind...the non-physical mind....people out of body are fully conscious ...

Have your brain removed and come back to us with that same claim. :lol:


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