The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

What you think about how you think.
User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8220
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Poodle » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:53 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Poodle wrote:You seem pretty certain about there being only one reality, Relinquish. When was that defined?


its completely definitional. If there are other universes with different laws, say where the entire universe is a Volkswagon sized lump of gizz....that would be part of "our" reality...even though we can't see it, get there, measure it, or detect it..... just like whatever is beyond our own observable Universe.

Why would it not be? The reality is we don't interact with everything that: is.


You may well be right, bobbo. However, there is an ongoing discussion amongst those who deal with reality - in a number of fields - who would argue with you. It is a common human assumption that reality is a continuum, but those who argue, for instance, for the many worlds interpretation of quantum physics would strongly disagree.

Relinquish85
Poster
Posts: 196
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:35 pm

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:16 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:And that reality includes that as far as we know as a certainty.......most of the existence of the Universe has been without life as totally hostile to it, and will evolve into a cold universe that is also incapable of supporting life.


That's kinda beside the point I'm trying to make. The fact that life was ever possible at all (in any way, place, or time) in Reality will remain a fact forever and ever and ever. Eventually it will become like all the other unknowable facts about Reality, but that doesn't mean it will ever be any less true.

WOW, yeah?!?!

:D

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19745
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:21 pm

Ra Ra Ra... :roll:
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11015
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:34 pm

Relinquish85 wrote:Eventually it will become like all the other unknowable facts about Reality, but that doesn't mean it will ever be any less true.

WOW, yeah?!?!

:D

No wow. Are you saying anything other than facts are facts? Or are you trying to say that facts are facts and that that is very profound??? You are hard to follow.... not that anyone is.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Relinquish85
Poster
Posts: 196
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:35 pm

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:39 pm

Poodle wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Poodle wrote:You seem pretty certain about there being only one reality, Relinquish. When was that defined?


its completely definitional. If there are other universes with different laws, say where the entire universe is a Volkswagon sized lump of gizz....that would be part of "our" reality...even though we can't see it, get there, measure it, or detect it..... just like whatever is beyond our own observable Universe.

Why would it not be? The reality is we don't interact with everything that: is.


You may well be right, bobbo. However, there is an ongoing discussion amongst those who deal with reality - in a number of fields - who would argue with you. It is a common human assumption that reality is a continuum, but those who argue, for instance, for the many worlds interpretation of quantum physics would strongly disagree.


Many worlds does not equal many realities. In this context, Reality would be the unencompassed 'place' within which ALL the worlds/universes commonly exist.

I know that sounds woo, but it's unavoidable when speaking about the common ground of EVERYTHING.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11015
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:46 pm

Poodle wrote:You may well be right, bobbo. However, there is an ongoing discussion amongst those who deal with reality - in a number of fields - who would argue with you. It is a common human assumption that reality is a continuum, but those who argue, for instance, for the many worlds interpretation of quantum physics would strongly disagree.


What is their argument?

I don't know what "reality is a continuum" even means. Little help? something is real or not...right? Do you mean empty space, is not empty??? That sort of purely definitional speed bump??

If many worlds exists: how can they not be part of reality....?

Makes no sense at all........ we must be close to something?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Relinquish85
Poster
Posts: 196
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:35 pm

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:48 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:Eventually it will become like all the other unknowable facts about Reality, but that doesn't mean it will ever be any less true.

WOW, yeah?!?!

:D

No wow. Are you saying anything other than facts are facts? Or are you trying to say that facts are facts and that that is very profound??? You are hard to follow.... not that anyone is.


No, I'm saying that even unknowable facts are still facts. Even when life can not possibly exist, the fact that it was ever possible at all (in any way, place, or time) in Reality will eventually become an unknowable fact. Even if that state, it will remain true forever. It will never become 'untrue'.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11015
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:56 pm

Relinquish85 wrote:No, I'm saying that even unknowable facts are still facts. .

That is so obvious as to be trite. Facts are facts. Already established. Not wow==but "so what?"
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Relinquish85
Poster
Posts: 196
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:35 pm

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:09 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:No, I'm saying that even unknowable facts are still facts. .

That is so obvious as to be trite. Facts are facts. Already established. Not wow==but "so what?"


Life happened. Really? So what?

But.....LIFE HAPPENED!!!

That will ALWAYS be true.

Relinquish85
Poster
Posts: 196
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:35 pm

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:20 pm

Bump

Relinquish85 wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Sounds right.... as I wish you hadn't spoken of it. How do you craft your sentence structure? A Mr Potato face, Magic Eight Ball, or do you assign numbers and pick randomly?


It just happens. I really have no idea how. Do you have any idea how do you do it?

Really look....


Bobbo?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11015
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:30 pm

Oh...thought it was a throw away. A yawlp into the impenetrable darkness.

"How do hoomans form ideas?" My last read book on topic was years ago: Piaget and his developmental psychology.

We are all the same this way. Read.... if you have any interest in reality. More narrowly...that tree has many branches. I still like Freud, Skinner and the whole crowd. Each adds a little bit.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Relinquish85
Poster
Posts: 196
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:35 pm

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:16 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Oh...thought it was a throw away. A yawlp into the impenetrable darkness.

"How do hoomans form ideas?" My last read book on topic was years ago: Piaget and his developmental psychology.

We are all the same this way. Read.... if you have any interest in reality. More narrowly...that tree has many branches. I still like Freud, Skinner and the whole crowd. Each adds a little bit.


Certainly looks interesting. Thanks. But your question to me was specifically about how I craft my sentence structure. My response was that, in my experience, it just happens. I don't know how it happens.

Do YOU know how you craft YOUR sentence structure? What is your direct experience of being the 'crafter'?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11015
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:20 pm

Those are the words I used, but its not what I said.

Yes, I took creative writing in college. I lost my notes though, and I do not care to reflect. Lance is a published author though. He may have some formalized thoughts on the creative process. Its normally write, write, write, even stream of consciousness..........then x10 the time to edit. Then.... repeat.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10208
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:53 am

Thoughts on the creative process?

I can tell you this much. It is bloody difficult!
I often leave a piece of writing for days, while I think about it. When I get back to it, I have a few ideas to follow, and the writing is then easy.

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 29416
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Gord » Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:44 am

Relinquish85 wrote:
Gord wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:We can't really conceive of a universe in which life never arises, simply because in order for there to be the conception of such a universe, life must first arise in the universe.

I can. It's pretty simple, really. I can really conceive of a whole lot of imaginary things.

Look, I just really conceived of a universe made out of gummy bears. :shock: The profundity!

That's just it, though. At best, 'a universe in which life never arises' is only EVER an 'imaginary thing'.

Everything I imagine is only ever an imaginary thing at best.

Imagination depends upon life.

So what? Everything of which we conceive is dependent upon us being able to conceive it. That's pretty obvious. But it doesn't stop us from conceiving of things that have never happened.

Life IS.

See?

Yes, I see that you're very confused about what you think you're thinking. You're saying we can't conceive of a place where no one has never been because we exist somewhere. But I'm saying we actually can conceive of places where we've never been, and even imagine them.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8220
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Poodle » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:57 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Poodle wrote:You may well be right, bobbo. However, there is an ongoing discussion amongst those who deal with reality - in a number of fields - who would argue with you. It is a common human assumption that reality is a continuum, but those who argue, for instance, for the many worlds interpretation of quantum physics would strongly disagree.


What is their argument?

I don't know what "reality is a continuum" even means. Little help? something is real or not...right? Do you mean empty space, is not empty??? That sort of purely definitional speed bump??

If many worlds exists: how can they not be part of reality....?

Makes no sense at all........ we must be close to something?


Who told you quantum mechanics had to make sense? Report such people immediately to Gord! "Reality is a continuum" - that it has no boundaries and is found in one infinite lump - appears to be what you're saying, which is the common-sense, straight down the line view. Nothing wrong with that, except it may not be a fact. For instance, we do know now that empty space is not empty - there's stuff popping in and out of existence (in this reality) all the time.

But, but, but ... surely contradictory events cannot exist together in the same reality? For instance, you exist and you do not exist. A star explodes and it does not explode. Those are ANDs, not ORs. Can that happen in one all-encompassing reality? Yet the many worlds interpretation demands that such things are true. IF (and it's a big IF) the interpretation is correct, then the usual interpretation of the word 'reality' is so nebulous as to be useless. Or there is more than one reality.

Take your pick - everyone else has to.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7617
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby TJrandom » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:14 am

Officer, I did not steal a bottle of wine... for indeed the bottle of wine that you think you see does not exist... it just appears to exist to you. In my reeeality it doesn`t exist at all... and if you permit me to demonstrate it too you, then you too will agree that it doesn`t exist. (quickly drinks the wine and tosses the bottle...). :)

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11015
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:48 pm

Poodle wrote:"Reality .... has no boundaries and is found in one infinite lump - appears to be what you're saying,.


Yes, and I like the phrasing. Thats it exactly. I seen no contradiction at all that my lump has empty space that is not empty which obviously is word play on what "empty" means. I do disagree on exploding Stars that don't explode. If you have any explanation for THAT, I'm interested. Seems to me the notion of Quantum uncertainty at the sub-atomic level has NOTHING to do with larger systems...like stars. But....I agree... no one understands Quantum Theory. To the degree that is true.... doesn't it fall out of consideration?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8220
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Poodle » Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:11 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Poodle wrote:"Reality .... has no boundaries and is found in one infinite lump - appears to be what you're saying,.


Yes, and I like the phrasing. Thats it exactly. I seen no contradiction at all that my lump has empty space that is not empty which obviously is word play on what "empty" means. I do disagree on exploding Stars that don't explode. If you have any explanation for THAT, I'm interested. Seems to me the notion of Quantum uncertainty at the sub-atomic level has NOTHING to do with larger systems...like stars. But....I agree... no one understands Quantum Theory. To the degree that is true.... doesn't it fall out of consideration?


Your universe is as likely to be true as any other, bobbo - but I feel you haven't grasped Many Worlds. That says that if an event can have more than one outcome, all possible outcomes are brought into existence after the event. The event may be something which threatens your life and it will either kill you or it won't kill you - so after the event you are alive in Outcome A but dead in Outcome B. Both states exist, but reality has split to accommodate the impossible contradiction. Being alive and dead in a single reality is an absolute no-no, so there are multiple realities.

Substitute an exploding/non-exploding star for the dead/alive you. Substitute any multi-outcome situation you like - reality will split to fit them all in with no conflict.

See - simple :P

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11015
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:14 pm

I disagree with the "meaning" of multiple worlds. The key is if there are multiple words we me/stars being and not being then THAT IS the one lump of reality. the only confusion here is YOURS for switching contexts mid analysis.

Its somewhat like I'm here today but I move to town B tomorrow. Am I now in two places? No...I have to add in the change over time. Same deal with multiple universes. You see...there are two now so "in what universe" do you wish to contextualize the statement..... today or tomorrow sort of recognition. Speaking of multi-verse...its logical, but "common sense" (sic) holds it to be quite unlikely. The number of possible universeses/worlds reaches infinity in nanoseconds. Each of those multiple worlds splintering off into a new universe with the beat of EVERY butterfly wing?

Lets keep our feet on the ground, shall we?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8220
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Poodle » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:43 pm

I'm not advocating it, bobbo. I'm just saying that it is an internally consistent model which allows a thing to be in contradictory states in the same instant.

Here - you choose which one you like ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpret ... _mechanics

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11015
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:07 pm

But if there are two different universes...I don't see the conflict.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8220
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Poodle » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:42 pm

We're going around in circles. What you've just said is exactly the point - splitting reality resolves the potential conflict.

Oh - one of the other implications of Many Worlds is that you are going to live as long as it is possible for a human being to live. Not necessarily in this reality, but you won't know when realities split as your consciousness will be in the favourable (to you) reality. It's a very nice scenario if you want to become very old.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11015
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:52 pm

I've seen too many conversations go around in circles or one person offering a clear opposition and the other person being oblivious to new information. I'm "trying" to see the point you are making..... but I'm not. There is no "splitting" of reality. It is what it is? I don't see the issue to start with, and I don't see the solutions solving anything.

Is it me????? If I exist in one universe but do not exist in another however those universes are defined/exist the ONLY confusion introduced is trying to say Reality somehow muddles what is clear to me otherwise.

But I have trouble with Schrodinger's Cat as well. Just because WE don't know if the cat is alive or dead doesn't mean it isn't alive or dead. My own reading on the hypo gave me the statemtent that the hypo was meant to demonstrate how ridiculous the uncertainty principle in Quantum Theory is........but like Trump or Scientology ....... everyone took the joke seriously.

thank god my self imposed liquor license renews at 5PM.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10208
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:01 pm

I have a problem with many worlds. It is a violation of the principle of conservation of mass and energy.

It is worth remembering that many worlds is just one possible interpretation of quantum physics. There are many other possibilities that do not require this violation.

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8220
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Poodle » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:18 pm

It does appear so at first glance, Lance - but the idea is that it does not because it is reality, rather than the physical universe, which has split and each new reality conserves mass and energy fully. A conservation of the reality barrier, if you like.

Bobbo - we have to agree terms. It isn't universes we're talking about. It's realities - unless we can agree that another reality is the same thing as another universe. I'm not sure if it could be.

Note to self: Why am I doing this? It isn't my view of reality at all.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11015
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:49 pm

Poodle: thats a good note to yourself. We are at mutually exclusive definitions of key terms. EG: having multiple universes being accomplished because its only reality that is being split is TOTAL BS in my mind. Reality is what "is" while our concept of Reality is only a hooman idea. Two totally different things.

It comes back to Schrodinger's Cat Hypo. Every rendition of it I have heard confused human knowledge of the cats reality with the cats reality. I think there is a failure in basic communication skills in setting forth some of these theories. It could be as simple as science using words like theory very differently from standard English...or it could be something more basic.

Theory without useful application: is not pragmatic...ie...is (tautology alert:) useless and on par with not being true at all. I'll let the subject drop if you restrict your next post, to me, on topic, being your agreement to do so.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8220
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Poodle » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:56 pm

Nah - I'll keep going for a while. I think you're missing a key concept or two. For instance ...

"It comes back to Schrodinger's Cat Hypo. Every rendition of it I have heard confused human knowledge of the cats reality with the cats reality."

How do you know?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11015
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:10 am

Ha, ha...........whad you mean...how do I know? I read the freaking hypothetical. "Until the lid to the box is lifted, the cat may be either alive or dead and we won't know until we life the lid. The cat is both alive and dead." Again...I think confusing the quantum with non-quantum world. do you have an example of the hypo without such an obvious confusion of standard English?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Paul Anthony
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2783
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:23 pm
Custom Title: The other god
Location: The desert
Contact:

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Paul Anthony » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:29 am

I got married. Then I got divorced. But, in another reality I never marry, so no need to divorce. That second reality would be the better one for me, so I would be alive in that reality ...and dead in this one?
People who say ALWAYS and NEVER are usually wrong, part of the time.
Science answers questions, Philosophy questions answers.
Make sense, not war.

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8220
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Poodle » Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:08 am

You sidestepped, bobbo. You said "Every rendition of it I have heard confused human knowledge of the cats reality with the cats reality", thus displaying the (very common) human ability to jump right over the point. According to this particular interpretation, there is no cat's reality until you resolve it with your knowledge - you become the observer which 'condenses' reality. You are assuming that the cat inside the box is either alive or dead when, in fact, it is in a quantum state of 'this particular locality has not yet been forced into definition'. It is not either alive or dead but neither alive nor dead. You and any other part of the universe outside of that box have not seen inside and the wave function defining the state of the cat has not collapsed and will not until something or someone observes it.

There is no confusion, but you are having difficulty accepting that there could be undefined states in reality. At least, that's what the theory says. Pick any other interpretation from that list I gave you, though, and this discussion becomes very different.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19745
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:16 pm

Paul Anthony wrote:I got married. Then I got divorced. But, in another reality I never marry, so no need to divorce. That second reality would be the better one for me, so I would be alive in that reality ...and dead in this one?

You can't imagine the one(s) in which you never divorce(d)?
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
Paul Anthony
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2783
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:23 pm
Custom Title: The other god
Location: The desert
Contact:

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Paul Anthony » Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:07 pm

Poodle wrote:You sidestepped, bobbo. You said "Every rendition of it I have heard confused human knowledge of the cats reality with the cats reality", thus displaying the (very common) human ability to jump right over the point. According to this particular interpretation, there is no cat's reality until you resolve it with your knowledge - you become the observer which 'condenses' reality. You are assuming that the cat inside the box is either alive or dead when, in fact, it is in a quantum state of 'this particular locality has not yet been forced into definition'. It is not either alive or dead but neither alive nor dead. You and any other part of the universe outside of that box have not seen inside and the wave function defining the state of the cat has not collapsed and will not until something or someone observes it.

There is no confusion, but you are having difficulty accepting that there could be undefined states in reality. At least, that's what the theory says. Pick any other interpretation from that list I gave you, though, and this discussion becomes very different.


I've always had a problem with that. Very human-centric. Yes, an observer may be required, but why must the observer be human? It ignores that the cat is also an observer.
People who say ALWAYS and NEVER are usually wrong, part of the time.
Science answers questions, Philosophy questions answers.
Make sense, not war.

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8220
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Poodle » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:11 pm

No, it doesn't. The cat is inside the box. Whatever state the cat is in, and whatever the cat feels about it, is information locked away from external knowledge until that box is opened, at which point the wave function collapses and the information becomes 'solid'.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11015
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:40 pm

I don't mean to be insulting, but I agree with Paul. Your explanation of "reality being forced into definition" is just woo in my mind. NOW...immediately this may be as you are positioned to say the very import of Quantum Theory...but I say you are doing the Quantum Dance of Woo==applying what is true/theorized at the quantum level as if it applied at the macro level. Yes===my view is the Cat is either alive or dead independent of my observation of it. There is no forcing...just my own human centric state of knowledge. IOW: the paradox is BS.

I don't understand what wave is collapsing....and the information's solidity is never at issue. The Reality of the Universe is not affected by mans contemplation of it. and btw...your phrasing of the S Cat Paradox is your own...nothing I've seen in print. do you have a handy link to anything near what you have presented?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10208
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:56 pm

The observer effect in quantum physics is often interpreted as 'human observer'. But that is wrong. If that were the case, nothing would have happened before humans evolved. In fact, since nothing could happen, humans could not have evolved. The definition of 'observer' for eliciting the collapse of a quantum state is far wider, and certainly includes non living factors. I am not an expert, though.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11015
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:59 pm

Lance.... excellent observation. Now... if we all can just agree on what the Paradox is actually about?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Paul Anthony
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2783
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:23 pm
Custom Title: The other god
Location: The desert
Contact:

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Paul Anthony » Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:22 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:The observer effect in quantum physics is often interpreted as 'human observer'. But that is wrong. If that were the case, nothing would have happened before humans evolved. In fact, since nothing could happen, humans could not have evolved. The definition of 'observer' for eliciting the collapse of a quantum state is far wider, and certainly includes non living factors. I am not an expert, though.


Thank you. At the risk of veering off into religion, the fact that the universe evolved before the development of humans is the Deist argument for a Prime Observer (which most people confuse with their own silly definition of "God")
People who say ALWAYS and NEVER are usually wrong, part of the time.
Science answers questions, Philosophy questions answers.
Make sense, not war.

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8220
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Poodle » Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:30 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I don't mean to be insulting, but I agree with Paul. Your explanation of "reality being forced into definition" is just woo in my mind. NOW...immediately this may be as you are positioned to say the very import of Quantum Theory...but I say you are doing the Quantum Dance of Woo==applying what is true/theorized at the quantum level as if it applied at the macro level. Yes===my view is the Cat is either alive or dead independent of my observation of it. There is no forcing...just my own human centric state of knowledge. IOW: the paradox is BS.

I don't understand what wave is collapsing....and the information's solidity is never at issue. The Reality of the Universe is not affected by mans contemplation of it. and btw...your phrasing of the S Cat Paradox is your own...nothing I've seen in print. do you have a handy link to anything near what you have presented?


I ain't dancing with anyone. I think this particular explanation of quantum theory is away with the fairies. I'm merely pointing out its implications, one of which is that no matter how hard you wish, you cannot know the fate of the cat until you open the box. Nor can anyone or anything else. Therefore, to the universe outside that box, the cat is neither dead nor alive. No woo about it, and no paradox - the information about the cat simply is not available until something actively observes it.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11015
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:38 pm

Still not the Cat Paradox as issued. For example:

Schrö·ding·er's cat
ˌSHrōdiNGərz ˈkat,ˌSHrā-/
nounPhysics
noun: Schrödinger's cat

a cat imagined as being enclosed in a box with a radioactive source and a poison that will be released when the source (unpredictably) emits radiation, the cat being considered (according to quantum mechanics) to be simultaneously both dead and alive until the box is opened and the cat observed.

The cat cannot both be dead and alive. It is either or. Again....totally confusing what humans know with what is... or is not. Not the same thing. The anthropogenisis is: "to the Universe..." There is no to the Universe. The Universe Is. What is, Is. What human know about it is a totally unrelated issue.

There is no paradox..... just woo creeping into the discussion. People like woo. I don't. I'm pragmatic..... ummm.....maybe my own Woo? We won't know until we open the box.

BS.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?


Return to “Brain, Mind, & Consciousness”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest