The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

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The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:02 pm

One thing that I think gets overlooked all too often is the utter profundity of the fact that, in some way or other, 'life' has arisen in the universe.

We can't really conceive of a universe in which life never arises, simply because in order for there to be the conception of such a universe, life must first arise in the universe.

Even if we accept the notion that the arising of life is just like any other natural phenomenon, this implies that it is simply an inevitable occurrence.

My question is, do you find this fact profound or not, and why?

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:10 am

Relinquish85 wrote:My question is, do you find this fact profound or not, and why?


Not really. Its a matter of chemistry and physics. If another sort of universe arose, that did not allow for complex molecules, then no complex life could arise. However, that's not what happened.

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:27 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:My question is, do you find this fact profound or not, and why?


Not really. Its a matter of chemistry and physics. If another sort of universe arose, that did not allow for complex molecules, then no complex life could arise. However, that's not what happened.


Correct. The ONLY universe we have ANY evidence for is THIS one, in which the physics and chemistry DID allow for complex molecules, and in turn, complex life.

I encourage you to ask yourself why you don't find this to be an utterly profound fact, and to share your answer to this question.

:)

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:12 am

Relinquish85 wrote:I encourage you to ask yourself why you don't find this to be an utterly profound fact, and to share your answer to this question.
Firstly, I don't get emotional about facts. Secondly, as I am bag of chemical reactions that were defined 13 billion years ago, I'm just a result of what happened.

Is this thread going anywhere?

profound : "felt or experienced very strongly or in an extreme way"
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/diction ... h/profound

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:45 am

There's nothing about the entire universe that's not profound - in a very ordinary way. :pardon:
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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:14 am

This topic is characterised by an amazing lack of data. We do not know if there is life anywhere else in our universe. If the multiverse is real (which we also do not know) we do not know if there is life in any of the other universes, and if so, how many.

The only thing profound here is the degree of our ignorance.

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:23 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:I encourage you to ask yourself why you don't find this to be an utterly profound fact, and to share your answer to this question.
Firstly, I don't get emotional about facts. Secondly, as I am bag of chemical reactions that were defined 13 billion years ago, I'm just a result of what happened.

Is this thread going anywhere?

profound : "felt or experienced very strongly or in an extreme way"
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/diction ... h/profound


If you don't get emotional about facts, what DO you get emotional about? Or perhaps you are referring specifically to scientific facts. Would it be correct, then, to say that you feel that the scientific fact that the universe naturally gives rise to life is simply a 'mundane' fact, and so not worthy of your emotion?

If so, I put it to you that you feel this way about this fact because you are seeing it through a conditioned mental 'veil' of mundanity, and so are not seeing it as it really is.

Can you see that 'mundanity' does not actually exist in the physical universe in any way? Of course, this also means that 'profundity' doesn't actually exist either, but the point is that the fact universe is not simply devoid of life is not merely "meh".

:)

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:52 am

Relinquish85 wrote: If you don't get emotional about facts, what DO you get emotional about?
Bach, Beethoven, The choir at St Stephens in Hungary, Yves Tanguy the painter, Kurt Vonnegut, the author. The creativity of my fellow humans can give me goosebumps.

I also get emotional about my cats and girlfriend.


Relinquish85 wrote:Would it be correct, then, to say that you feel that the scientific fact that the universe naturally gives rise to life is simply a 'mundane' fact, and so not worthy of your emotion?
Yep. It is very interesting, but I don't get emotional and have profound thoughts about it.

Relinquish85 wrote: If so, I put it to you that you feel this way about this fact because you are seeing it through a conditioned mental 'veil' of mundanity, and so are not seeing it as it really is.
That would be bizarre of you to claim that. By not being emotional, like you, I can be objective in my interest about science. You can't.

Relinquish85 wrote: Can you see that 'mundanity' does not actually exist in the physical universe in any way?
I never said it did.

Relinquish85 wrote:Of course, this also means that 'profundity' doesn't actually exist either, but the point is that the fact universe is not simply devoid of life is not merely "meh".
I said I was very interested in science. I said i wasn't profoundly emotional about science. That's not "meh" is it?

Your seem to be making the mistake that science based people can't have emotions. That's crap.
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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:01 pm

I guess my stupidity overtakes any sense of awe. IOW: I'm just not smart enough to understand enough what is being presented.

The fact that "we" exists doesn't strike me as profound. Its just the way it is, right here, right now. Eons before or after right here, right now....who knows?

But what does approach profound to me is what our being here means? And that is the "perfectly balanced universe" of all those variables that dictate whether or not life will arise naturally from the conditions present. Even THIS universe will not support life for most of its existence by a large fraction. Mostly: cold time in isolation...but thats for later.

Right here, right now....it does strike me as profound that we exists. Its an intellectual recognition rather than an emotional one. It does strike me as very strong evidence for multiple universes by one construct or the other..... with so many more dead universes. Seems like a waste of energy to me..... aye, there's the emotions creeping in.
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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Paul Anthony » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:10 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:

I also get emotional about my cats and girlfriend.


It's good to see you put them in the correct order. I admire a man who has his priorities straight. ;)
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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:14 pm

I'm not gonna say it..... but its the other choice from "Its girlfriends all the way down."
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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:18 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote: If you don't get emotional about facts, what DO you get emotional about?
Bach, Beethoven, The choir at St Stephens in Hungary, Yves Tanguy the painter, Kurt Vonnegut, the author. The creativity of my fellow humans can give me goosebumps.

I also get emotional about my cats and girlfriend.


Relinquish85 wrote:Would it be correct, then, to say that you feel that the scientific fact that the universe naturally gives rise to life is simply a 'mundane' fact, and so not worthy of your emotion?
Yep. It is very interesting, but I don't get emotional and have profound thoughts about it.

Relinquish85 wrote: If so, I put it to you that you feel this way about this fact because you are seeing it through a conditioned mental 'veil' of mundanity, and so are not seeing it as it really is.
That would be bizarre of you to claim that. By not being emotional, like you, I can be objective in my interest about science. You can't.

Relinquish85 wrote: Can you see that 'mundanity' does not actually exist in the physical universe in any way?
I never said it did.

Relinquish85 wrote:Of course, this also means that 'profundity' doesn't actually exist either, but the point is that the fact universe is not simply devoid of life is not merely "meh".
I said I was very interested in science. I said i wasn't profoundly emotional about science. That's not "meh" is it?

Your seem to be making the mistake that science based people can't have emotions. That's crap.
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Fair enough. Part of the point I'm making is that ALL that stuff you mentioned, the creativity of fellow humans, Bach, Beethoven, The choir at St Stephens in Hungary, Yves Tanguy the painter, Kurt Vonnegut, the author, your cats and your girlfriend (and ANYTHING ELSE you could have mentioned, without exception), are ALL ultimately natural phenomena. Isn't THAT incredible? Isn't THAT sufficient reason to be 'emotionally humbled' by Reality itself?

I'm NOT AT ALL saying that objective interest and science don't have their indispensable place (even though you think that's what I'm saying). They OBVIOUSLY DO.

:)

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:24 pm

Relinq: why the drive to have everyone just the same as you? Why not be humbled by variation in response?
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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:37 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Relinq: why the drive to have everyone just the same as you? Why not be humbled by variation in response?


Not trying to have everyone just like me. I'm simply sharing a particular approach to life, namely that we don't have to modify our experience in any way in find profundity in it. It can be seen in literally EVERYTHING we experience, and science is one of the best tools we can use to see it more clearly.

Many have never seen it in this way before, and it can be a wonderful discovery to make.

:)

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:50 am

It's the little things that matter - the very very little ones. :-P
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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:58 am

Relinquish85 wrote:...... are ALL ultimately natural phenomena. Isn't THAT incredible? Isn't THAT sufficient reason to be 'emotionally humbled' by Reality itself?
How on earth is a novel, a composition, a great painting and so on, a natural phenomena? They are all man made.

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Paul Anthony » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:37 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:...... are ALL ultimately natural phenomena. Isn't THAT incredible? Isn't THAT sufficient reason to be 'emotionally humbled' by Reality itself?
How on earth is a novel, a composition, a great painting and so on, a natural phenomena? They are all man made.


Or woman-made. It's important to make that clear these days. Your cats may not care, but your girlfriend might.
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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:46 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:...... are ALL ultimately natural phenomena. Isn't THAT incredible? Isn't THAT sufficient reason to be 'emotionally humbled' by Reality itself?
How on earth is a novel, a composition, a great painting and so on, a natural phenomena? They are all man made.


Consider a birds nest, or a bee hive, or a beaver's dam, etc. Sure, these structures don't arise the same way that trees (for instance) do, but they ARE nevertheless found in nature, as the result of the naturally emergent behavior of their respective builders.

In this way, EVERY 'man made' structure is found in nature. Also, the RAW materials used for all of them can not have arisen 'unnaturally', could they?

The distinction between 'natural' and 'unnatural' phenomena is not actually real. Even if you are in the heart of the biggest city on earth, you are still smack bang in the middle of nature. Nature doesn't have an 'outside'.

Fascinating, no?

:)

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:01 am

Profundity: The intellectual ability to penetrate deeply into ideas

"....It can be seen in literally EVERYTHING we experience," //// How deep do you think THAT goes?

Here's another particular approach to life: you don't have to modify our experience in any way to find good and bad in everything. Its mostly your own private/chosen reaction that defines ........ not "it"...... but your own appreciation. Profundity is a function of lack of familiarity...as the feeling always goes away..... eventually.
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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:06 am

Buy a dictionary.
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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:14 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Profundity: The intellectual ability to penetrate deeply into ideas

"....It can be seen in literally EVERYTHING we experience," //// How deep do you think THAT goes?

Here's another particular approach to life: you don't have to modify our experience in any way to find good and bad in everything. Its mostly your own private/chosen reaction that defines ........ not "it"...... but your own appreciation. Profundity is a function of lack of familiarity...as the feeling always goes away..... eventually.


'Familiarity' is an illusion caused by memory. There is no actual familiarity in Reality. This may sound scary, but the full realization of it is unspeakably liberating.

:)

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:30 am

Sounds right.... as I wish you hadn't spoken of it. How do you craft your sentence structure? A Mr Potato face, Magic Eight Ball, or do you assign numbers and pick randomly?
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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:03 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Sounds right.... as I wish you hadn't spoken of it. How do you craft your sentence structure? A Mr Potato face, Magic Eight Ball, or do you assign numbers and pick randomly?


It just happens. I really have no idea how. Do you have any idea how do you do it?

Really look....

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:05 am

I think the way the word 'profundity' is being used here, is similar to the way 'spirituality' is used. In other words, it can mean almost anything, depending on what the writer wants it to mean.

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:36 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:I think the way the word 'profundity' is being used here, is similar to the way 'spirituality' is used. In other words, it can mean almost anything, depending on what the writer wants it to mean.


Yeah, ok. I suppose we could say it's spirituality without the 'spirit'. How's that?

I'm not talking about religion, though.

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Poodle » Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:47 am

"The great depth of insight or knowledge" of life in the universe?

We have neither, so profundity is not the right word. I think what the OP is trying to say is "Life. Wow, man!". I sort of agree with the sentiment but it tells us absolutely FA about life in the universe.

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:03 am

Poodle wrote:"The great depth of insight or knowledge" of life in the universe?

We have neither, so profundity is not the right word. I think what the OP is trying to say is "Life. Wow, man!". I sort of agree with the sentiment but it tells us absolutely FA about life in the universe.


Ok, wrong word. I should probably have called the thread "The over-looked, profound implications of life in the universe".
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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:06 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: How on earth is a novel, a composition, a great painting and so on, a natural phenomena? They are all man made.
Relinquish85 wrote: Consider a birds nest, or a bee hive, or a beaver's dam, etc. Sure, these structures don't arise the same way that trees (for instance) do, but they ARE nevertheless found in nature, as the result of the naturally emergent behavior of their respective builders.In this way, EVERY 'man made' structure is found in nature. Also, the RAW materials used for all of them can not have arisen 'unnaturally', could they?
So.......you think all the very heavy elements first made by humans, that appear at the bottom of the periodic table, are natural? Try again.

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:41 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: How on earth is a novel, a composition, a great painting and so on, a natural phenomena? They are all man made.
Relinquish85 wrote: Consider a birds nest, or a bee hive, or a beaver's dam, etc. Sure, these structures don't arise the same way that trees (for instance) do, but they ARE nevertheless found in nature, as the result of the naturally emergent behavior of their respective builders.In this way, EVERY 'man made' structure is found in nature. Also, the RAW materials used for all of them can not have arisen 'unnaturally', could they?
So.......you think all the very heavy elements first made by humans, that appear at the bottom of the periodic table, are natural? Try again.


In the totaly valid sense that I described, everything in the universe (yes, including all the very heavy elements first made by humans, that appear at the bottom of the periodic table) is a natural occurrence.

I don't need to try again.

:)

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:55 am

Relinquish85 wrote:I don't need to try again.
Please don't. It was terrible enough the first time.

Try a religious forum.

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Gord » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:36 am

Relinquish85 wrote:We can't really conceive of a universe in which life never arises, simply because in order for there to be the conception of such a universe, life must first arise in the universe.

I can. It's pretty simple, really. I can really conceive of a whole lot of imaginary things.

Look, I just really conceived of a universe made out of gummy bears. :shock: The profundity!
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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:39 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:I don't need to try again.
Please don't. It was terrible enough the first time.

Try a religious forum.


Oh come on, Matty! You LUV it!!

:P

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:22 pm

Gord wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:We can't really conceive of a universe in which life never arises, simply because in order for there to be the conception of such a universe, life must first arise in the universe.

I can. It's pretty simple, really. I can really conceive of a whole lot of imaginary things.

Look, I just really conceived of a universe made out of gummy bears. :shock: The profundity!


That's just it, though. At best, 'a universe in which life never arises' is only EVER an 'imaginary thing'.

Imagination depends upon life.

Life IS.

See?

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Poodle » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:26 pm

You mean we haven't found one yet. That doesn't make it imaginary.

Having said that, I'm looking out of the window across the road. There may well be a universe over there devoid of life.

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:07 pm

Relinquish85 wrote:
Gord wrote:That's just it, though. At best, 'a universe in which life never arises' is only EVER an 'imaginary thing'.

Imagination depends upon life.

Life IS.

See?



SHENANIGANS!!!!

Not worth continuing the transparent manipulation.
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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Relinquish85 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:30 pm

Poodle wrote:You mean we haven't found one yet. That doesn't make it imaginary.

Having said that, I'm looking out of the window across the road. There may well be a universe over there devoid of life.


Any possible 'other universes', with or without life, that would exit would STILL fundamentally exist in THIS Reality. Ultimately, there can only be one Reality.

The fact is that life is a part of the only Reality there is, and as tautological as it is to say it, that means that, no matter what, Reality is not devoid of life.

This fact is infinitely more profound than science ever seems to realize.

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:39 pm

And that reality includes that as far as we know as a certainty.......most of the existence of the Universe has been without life as totally hostile to it, and will evolve into a cold universe that is also incapable of supporting life.

I don't see any meaningful connection between reality and life. Indeed: tautologies are thin gruel.
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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby Poodle » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:46 pm

You seem pretty certain about there being only one reality, Relinquish. When was that defined?

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Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:49 pm

Poodle wrote:You seem pretty certain about there being only one reality, Relinquish. When was that defined?


its completely definitional. If there are other universes with different laws, say where the entire universe is a Volkswagon sized lump of gizz....that would be part of "our" reality...even though we can't see it, get there, measure it, or detect it..... just like whatever is beyond our own observable Universe.

Why would it not be? The reality is we don't interact with everything that: is.
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Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: The over-looked profundity of life in the universe

Postby OlegTheBatty » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:57 pm

Relinquish85 wrote:
Poodle wrote:You mean we haven't found one yet. That doesn't make it imaginary.

Having said that, I'm looking out of the window across the road. There may well be a universe over there devoid of life.


Any possible 'other universes', with or without life, that would exit would STILL fundamentally exist in THIS Reality. Ultimately, there can only be one Reality.

The fact is that life is a part of the only Reality there is, and as tautological as it is to say it, that means that, no matter what, Reality is not devoid of life.

This fact is infinitely more profound than science ever seems to realize.

Have you considered the profundity in the fact that not one bit of profundity matters?

No stars will change their courses.
The universe will continue to expand.
People will still lose their car keys.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero


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