The Truth

What you think about how you think.
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Lausten
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Re: The Truth

Postby Lausten » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:53 pm

Dimebag wrote:This topic reminds me of a podcast by Sam Harris with psychologist Jordan B Peterson, in which they discussed the "nature of truth", and it seemed Jordan had a totally different idea of what "truth" actually is.

I just listened to the second interview with those two. They agreed to not get bogged down in the same discussion. Instead, Sam let Jordan do his thing and interpret the Bible as if it contained "truth", but Sam would interrupt now and then and say, "I wouldn't go that far" or something. Sam also read from his own book, where he mocked the interpretation of mythology by randomly opening a cook book and interpreting it as if it held some insight into the human condition. It's pretty funny.

I think Jordan is the guy I was looking for in my post in the Julia Sweeney forum. Someone posted it years ago with an interesting take on the Cain and Abel story and how it relates to the flood and what "sacrifice" means. I can't find the old talk he did, but his new ones sure sound like that same theme.
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Dimebag
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Re: The Truth

Postby Dimebag » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:09 pm

Lausten wrote:
Dimebag wrote:This topic reminds me of a podcast by Sam Harris with psychologist Jordan B Peterson, in which they discussed the "nature of truth", and it seemed Jordan had a totally different idea of what "truth" actually is.

I just listened to the second interview with those two. They agreed to not get bogged down in the same discussion. Instead, Sam let Jordan do his thing and interpret the Bible as if it contained "truth", but Sam would interrupt now and then and say, "I wouldn't go that far" or something. Sam also read from his own book, where he mocked the interpretation of mythology by randomly opening a cook book and interpreting it as if it held some insight into the human condition. It's pretty funny.

I think Jordan is the guy I was looking for in my post in the Julia Sweeney forum. Someone posted it years ago with an interesting take on the Cain and Abel story and how it relates to the flood and what "sacrifice" means. I can't find the old talk he did, but his new ones sure sound like that same theme.

Yeah I seem to remember listening to that one as well, Peterson, as you said was interpreting passages of the bible and extracting "truths" for humanity, whereas Sam Harris remained steadfast to the idea of truth as being factual knowledge, and so they were unable to reconcile this difference, though at least it became clear. Peterson was referring to truth, or truths as he should have said, aka lessons. Basically he was extracting his own meaning from a passage, which is entirely possible to do from a work of fiction, as they tend to contain events which occur in life, and may draw your attention to a similar aspect in your own life, which allows you to learn something about the world or yourself.

It goes to show, sometimes it's worth defining your terms to avoid confusion.

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Lausten
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Re: The Truth

Postby Lausten » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:37 pm

Dimebag wrote:
It goes to show, sometimes it's worth defining your terms to avoid confusion.

Wellllll. Listening in a little more detail last night, Jordan TRIED to define "truth" more like "wisdom", and sometimes he made his case, but then he'd start up again with going off the rails of knowledge. He claimed at one point to be using several scientific approaches to verify that he was giving an interpretation that actually mapped to our knowledge of psychology, but then he'd say something like, "everyone wants a religious experience", or "the Christ story is one of a perfect man who is forsaken by everyone."

Sam keeps trying to reel him in but he just won't take it. Sam even allows him the idea that scripture can provide these useful insights, but most of what Jordan does is not useful. Sam instead sites Buddhism and points out how secular tools for society can be lifted almost whole right out of it, just strip a little of the poetry and symbolism away.

So, defining terms, yes, but then you need to stick to those definitions.
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Lausten
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Re: The Truth

Postby Lausten » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:48 pm

Dimebag wrote:Yeah I seem to remember listening to that one as well, Peterson, as you said was interpreting passages of the bible and extracting "truths" for humanity, whereas Sam Harris remained steadfast to the idea of truth as being factual knowledge, and so they were unable to reconcile this difference, though at least it became clear. Peterson was referring to truth, or truths as he should have said, aka lessons. Basically he was extracting his own meaning from a passage, which is entirely possible to do from a work of fiction, as they tend to contain events which occur in life, and may draw your attention to a similar aspect in your own life, which allows you to learn something about the world or yourself.



I'm not so sure Sam would agree. I think Sam is very open to the idea of using fiction to shed light on a complex truth about human nature. Peterson is trying to say that he knows what the original authors meant. If you and I were standing in an art gallery, discussing how a painting made us feel, we would be free to say whatever we want. If we were trying to say what the artist intended, we would need more information, or we would be purely speculating.
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scrmbldggs
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Re: The Truth

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:09 pm

Hi, Lausten. :wave: Long time no see. Happy 2018!
.

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Re: The Truth

Postby Dimebag » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:07 pm

Lausten wrote:
Dimebag wrote:Yeah I seem to remember listening to that one as well, Peterson, as you said was interpreting passages of the bible and extracting "truths" for humanity, whereas Sam Harris remained steadfast to the idea of truth as being factual knowledge, and so they were unable to reconcile this difference, though at least it became clear. Peterson was referring to truth, or truths as he should have said, aka lessons. Basically he was extracting his own meaning from a passage, which is entirely possible to do from a work of fiction, as they tend to contain events which occur in life, and may draw your attention to a similar aspect in your own life, which allows you to learn something about the world or yourself.



I'm not so sure Sam would agree. I think Sam is very open to the idea of using fiction to shed light on a complex truth about human nature. Peterson is trying to say that he knows what the original authors meant. If you and I were standing in an art gallery, discussing how a painting made us feel, we would be free to say whatever we want. If we were trying to say what the artist intended, we would need more information, or we would be purely speculating.

I find Sam to be a very cut and dry person who doesn't mix his words, I think he would resist using the word truth to describe such a process but would prefer some other term, such as life lesson, or learning something meaningful that resonates with you. Of course I agree that you can find meaning within fiction, some which the author brings to the plate, and some we do as well.

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Re: The Truth

Postby Lausten » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:17 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Hi, Lausten. :wave: Long time no see. Happy 2018!

'sup?
Been trying to cut back on the social media. Especially with the latest coming out from the facebook execs. It's weird to watch the people around me turn in to the idiot I was when I was 17. At least I didn't have to do that with video evidence.
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Re: The Truth

Postby Gord » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:35 am

Hi, Lausten! :wave:
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE


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