Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

What you think about how you think.
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:04 am

Scott Mayers wrote:Sweetpea, may I suggest that you initially check out http://www.clearerthinking.org/ and click the lesson under Probabilistic Fallacies to test the usefulness and rationality of Bayes' Rule.

Thanks, Scott.

A man who lost his keys at night, was walking from street light to street light, pausing at each to search in the patch of illumination. When asked why he was only looking under the street lights, surely he didn’t think the keys were any more likely to have fallen out there, he replied “Maybe not, but I think I’m more likely to find them there."

:)
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby clarifyit4me » Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:36 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:
But even if we used our normal understanding that we cannot truly physically sense another person's perspective, we know that just because we aren't capable of perceiving it, we know that the 'other' exists and can make statements of credible sense whether you are there to witness it or not.


Without you being there nothing whatsoever can happen. No you, no world. Do you really believe that we all live in the same world?

Where is your proof that the others exist ? You cannot even prove your own existence conclusively. The others only exist in your mind. Who is going to ask the questions about whom? Yet in reality there is only you in existence. You know this by direct insight, but it cannot be put into words without referring to memory what is memory but a past tense. There is only NOW. It is neither here not there, inside or outside; perceived or conceived, these are all mental constructs and are born out of memory. Whatever you sense outside is constructed inside. The reality is not and cannot be sensory, it is immediate. And this is the problem what you think to be outside, is inside; what you think to be inside is outside. Thoughts and feelings are external, they are not you, they only happen to you.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby fromthehills » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:13 am

Also the definition of solipsism. Which is proved false every time something happens.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby clarifyit4me » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:34 am

fromthehills wrote:Also the definition of solipsism. Which is proved false every time something happens.


Are you for real? every time something happens to you it PROVES your existence as a perceiving centre.
The question is have you proved it false yourself or are you just going by what people are telling you and what you have read. When all is said and done its pretty obvious that there is only the self. Are you that stupid to even think of denying yourself the actuality of existence? If I started chasing you down the street with an axe and the intention of killing you, are you going to stand there and do nothing? Haha! It is not called self defence for no reason, it is because you have a self to defend. Solipsism is only a theory your presence is actual.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby fromthehills » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:39 pm

You just made my point. You coming at me with an axe, and my need to defend myself is an argument for objective reality. You are quite confused about your position. If you were to come at me with an axe, and I shoot you dead; I still exist. The axe still exists. Everything in the world, except for your life, still exists. That's objective reality, and it doesn't depend on your mind in any way.

You obviously lack the brain power to have an actual discussion about this, so carry on with your salad, and I'll continue to mock you with random quotes.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby clarifyit4me » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:59 pm

fromthehills wrote:You just made my point. You coming at me with an axe, and my need to defend myself is an argument for objective reality. You are quite confused about your position. If you were to come at me with an axe, and I shoot you dead; I still exist. The axe still exists. Everything in the world, except for your life, still exists. That's objective reality, and it doesn't depend on your mind in any way.

You obviously lack the brain power to have an actual discussion about this, so carry on with your salad, and I'll continue to mock you with random quotes.



What difference does it make? Your react with fear the same way in your dream state; there is nobody there. It is much the same in your waking state.
You are only reacting out of memory; your memory is govern by your imagination, that is all it proves. The only argument you have here, is that you are sensing pending danger and that your fight or flight mechanism kicks in. And so it is not really an argument, more of a matter of fact I would say. But this mechanism is based on memory. It does not prove that there is an objective world for the simple reason; all happens within - your science tell you this.

Of course you still exist, if you have a bank of lights running on the same circuit and all the bulbs blow; does it affect the source? Such is the nature of the self you take to be personal, when in actual fact it is impersonal.
How can you take that which I don't own? You are only taking out the image in your own mind. And this is my point; I am not in this image which you call the body and neither are you, the only difference is I know it and you do not. The body is in the mind, the mind is in the consciousness; consciousness is only a manifestation of my cognisance. I am beyond all of this as awareness is beyond time and space.

And you are quite right in your position. If you shoot me dead it does not depend on my mind because it would not be happening in my mind. So of course your world still exist because you still are. We are not in the same world, I am in yours as a person, an image because that's how you [IMAGINE] yourself. You are in mine only as another point in consciousness; because that is what I [KNOW] myself to be. We are only a point in consciousness. And this point is everywhere and is always the case. All this communicating is happening in my consciousness as it is in yours. You, the axe, the gun and my death only happens in your world not mine, I'm merely using this scenario to illustrate a point; the foregone conclusion. I was never born in a world, the world was born in me as an appearance; without me where is the world? So what is to be killed and by whom? But this is besides the point.
And you are only mocking yourself. Remember, I'm not the one denying my existence. You cannot get any dumber than this.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:06 pm

Bumfights!
Not safe for work
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby clarifyit4me » Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:21 pm

Fromthehills wrote:
You obviously lack the brain power


So the question for you would not be wether or not you lack brain power, but rather have you a brain to lack the power in the first place?

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby zeuzzz » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:45 am

Not entirely sure how this short 10 minute interview will be perceived by people posting in this thread, but does essentially get to the crux of the points I am trying to make in a far more cogent way than I have probably so far.

"Terence Mckenna - A rationalists approach to the word 'drugs' and what it really means "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yInlhOlxKI

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:02 am

zeuzzz wrote:Not entirely sure how this short 10 minute interview will be perceived by people posting in this thread, but does essentially get to the crux of the points I am trying to make in a far more cogent way than I have probably so far.


McKenna says that we a "language problem" and our "language problem" causes us to treat drugs as "bad things" in some sort of Orwellian version of Newspeak.

However we speak the same language as we did when marijuana, LSD and amphetamines were all legal. I think his claim is a bit silly for that reason.

He seems unaware of all the problems that legal amphetamines caused with the demobilization at the end of WWI, a problem still experienced by the IDF recently.

(Amphetamine psychosis can result from continual use, and more so if amphetamines are used as a tool to enhance military repetitive over-learning techniques. Due to the massive loss of soldiers in WWI, causing manpower shortage, amphetamines were distributed on all sides, allowing for valuable post mobilization research.)

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:15 am

zeuzzz wrote:Not entirely sure how this short 10 minute interview will be perceived by people posting in this thread, but does essentially get to the crux of the points I am trying to make in a far more cogent way than I have probably so far.

"Terence Mckenna - A rationalists approach to the word 'drugs' and what it really means "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yInlhOlxKI

I'll answer the other q's I promised I would when I'm not working so much overtime!

What he's saying is perfectly sensible.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby clarifyit4me » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:42 pm

SweetPea wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:Not entirely sure how this short 10 minute interview will be perceived by people posting in this thread, but does essentially get to the crux of the points I am trying to make in a far more cogent way than I have probably so far.

"Terence Mckenna - A rationalists approach to the word 'drugs' and what it really means "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yInlhOlxKI

I'll answer the other q's I promised I would when I'm not working so much overtime!

What he's saying is perfectly sensible.


You people can spend all your life looking for the truth, roaming internet site, researching papers and bowing down to iconic figures - but it is all in vain. First you must begin with yourself , this is the inexorable law. You cannot change the image without changing the face. Your world is only a reflection of yourself but you lot continue to find fault with it. When you want to attend to your face as in make up or shaving, washing you stand in front of your image so you can see what you are doing. If you tried to shave or wash the image nothing happens. You must attend to yourself mentally and emotionally. All this talk of reform: economic social, political you must leave for the dreamers. Deal with the reformer. Beside what kind of a world comes out of stupidity, greed and heartlessness . If you do not like a movie you don't smash the DVD player, you simply change the DVD. Change the film of your mind and you change your destiny. Just like a holographic image, change the tiny piece and the whole image reflects this, it is that simply. You are all dipping into concepts, ideas and theories thus entangling yourselves in heaps of verbiage and contradictory knots. Scrutinise yourself and you will realise that all this is base on what you like and what you don't like, it is all entertainment base on imagination.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:49 pm

It's funny when you say other people do things they shouldn't, while you do the thing they shouldn't.
It's funny that you don't take your own advice.

First you must begin with yourself , this is the inexorable law. You cannot change the image without changing the face. Your world is only a reflection of yourself but you lot continue to find fault with it.


You're continuing to find fault with your world. :lol:
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby clarifyit4me » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:53 pm

SweetPea wrote:It's funny when you say other people do things they shouldn't, while you do the thing they shouldn't.


I'm only concerned with the facts me darlin, all opinion I leave with you lot. Understand yourself before you try to interpret what I'm expounding.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:57 pm

You're finding fault with your world again.
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby clarifyit4me » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:02 pm

SweetPea wrote:You're finding fault with your world again.


There nothing wrong in my world, it is as it is.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby clarifyit4me » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:18 pm

I think we've had this conversation before sweetie and I distinctively remember sending you off with a verbal beating. Suffering is a fact, now you can come on this site and deny all you like but this fact cannot be denied in any way. I experience suffering, it is all I need to know that you to suffer. I don't mind rolling with you in any thread, but not your stupidity.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:24 pm

You people can spend all your life looking for the truth, roaming internet site, researching papers and bowing down to iconic figures - but it is all in vain. First you must begin with yourself , this is the inexorable law. You cannot change the image without changing the face. Your world is only a reflection of yourself but you lot continue to find fault with it.


You're finding fault with your world.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:25 pm

I don't mind rolling with you in any thread, but not your stupidity.
You're finding fault with your world.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:27 pm

I distinctively remember
memory. delusion. :lol:
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby clarifyit4me » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:32 pm

SweetPea wrote:
I don't mind rolling with you in any thread, but not your stupidity.
You're finding fault with your world.


And I keep telling you there is nothing wrong in my world, you can parrot as long as you like it will not help you, you tried this last time remember. You problem is you have difficulty differentiating between the real and the unreal. What manifest itself as an appearance is untrue, what does not manifest itself is true.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:35 pm

clarifyit4me wrote:
SweetPea wrote:
I don't mind rolling with you in any thread, but not your stupidity.
You're finding fault with your world.


And I keep telling you there is nothing wrong in my world, you can parrot as long as you like it will not help you, you tried this last time remember. You problem is you have difficulty differentiating between the real and the unreal. What manifest itself as an appearance is untrue, what does not manifest itself is true.

Yet you were finding fault in what manifested.
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby clarifyit4me » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:40 pm

SweetPea wrote:
I distinctively remember
memory. delusion. :lol:


We can back track if you like. You can hardly forget yourself unless of course you are fromthehills.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:44 pm

You can back track all you like. You'll find nothing that supports your claim. We can find where I nailed you several times, though.


And you have been finding fault with your world. You just it did it several times. :lol:
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby clarifyit4me » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:46 pm

SweetPea wrote:
clarifyit4me wrote:
SweetPea wrote:
I don't mind rolling with you in any thread, but not your stupidity.
You're finding fault with your world.


And I keep telling you there is nothing wrong in my world, you can parrot as long as you like it will not help you, you tried this last time remember. You problem is you have difficulty differentiating between the real and the unreal. What manifest itself as an appearance is untrue, what does not manifest itself is true.

Yet you were finding fault in what manifested.


No! because of your lack of discernment you misunderstand. The manifestation is as it is because you are as you are. The manifestation can only be according to your own mind.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:46 pm

We can back track if you like. You can hardly forget yourself
Oh, are you now claiming that what you remember was me? You're contradicting yourself again.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:47 pm

clarifyit4me wrote:
SweetPea wrote:
clarifyit4me wrote:
SweetPea wrote:
I don't mind rolling with you in any thread, but not your stupidity.
You're finding fault with your world.


And I keep telling you there is nothing wrong in my world, you can parrot as long as you like it will not help you, you tried this last time remember. You problem is you have difficulty differentiating between the real and the unreal. What manifest itself as an appearance is untrue, what does not manifest itself is true.

Yet you were finding fault in what manifested.


No! because of your lack of discernment you misunderstand. The manifestation is as it is because you are as you are. The manifestation can only be according to your own mind.
And you found fault in it. :lol:
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby clarifyit4me » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:51 pm

Take it, it is yours. I will leave all this nonsense with you it is what you seem best at .

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby clarifyit4me » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:55 pm

And I keep telling you there is nothing wrong in my world, you can parrot as long as you like it will not help you, you tried this last time remember. You problem is you have difficulty differentiating between the real and the unreal. What manifest itself as an appearance is untrue, what does not manifest itself is true.

Yet you were finding fault in what manifested.


No! because of your lack of discernment you misunderstand. The manifestation is as it is because you are as you are. The manifestation can only be according to your own mind.
And you found fault in it. :lol:


Not you, only the idea you have of yourself is wrong. You think you are born in a body and die in one. This your only problem. This idea is based on dreaming.
Last edited by clarifyit4me on Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:56 pm

I experience suffering
Yes, a sad mental illness, eh?
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:58 pm

clarifyit4me wrote:
Not you, only the idea you have of yourself is wrong. You think you are born in a body and die in one. This your only problem. This idea is based on dreaming.
You should shut up in your dream and see if it works for us. :lol:
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby clarifyit4me » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:05 pm

SweetPea wrote:
clarifyit4me wrote:
Not you, only the idea you have of yourself is wrong. You think you are born in a body and die in one. This your only problem. This idea is based on dreaming.
You should shut up in your dream and see if it works for us. :lol:


I did for a while, thats how I came to know that you also can only be dreaming. It happens with a sound mind and mature heart; it can only come by silencing the mind. When you grow up you will understand.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:09 pm

clarifyit4me wrote:
SweetPea wrote:
clarifyit4me wrote:
Not you, only the idea you have of yourself is wrong. You think you are born in a body and die in one. This your only problem. This idea is based on dreaming.
You should shut up in your dream and see if it works for us. :lol:


I did for a while, thats how I came to know that you also can only be dreaming. It happens with a sound mind and mature heart; it can only come by silencing the mind. When you grow up you will understand.
So you've regressed, relapsed. What stupidity!
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby clarifyit4me » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:20 pm

SweetPea wrote:
clarifyit4me wrote:
SweetPea wrote:
clarifyit4me wrote:
Not you, only the idea you have of yourself is wrong. You think you are born in a body and die in one. This your only problem. This idea is based on dreaming.
You should shut up in your dream and see if it works for us. :lol:


I did for a while, thats how I came to know that you also can only be dreaming. It happens with a sound mind and mature heart; it can only come by silencing the mind. When you grow up you will understand.
So you've regressed, relapsed. What stupidity!


The eternal process is creation, reflection and then abandonment. Are you telling me you never reflect ? You are digging yourself a hole again ? Never mind I will just backfill as usual and bury you in your own nonsense .

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby Scott Mayers » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:22 pm

clarify4me,

If you are reading this and all the world is only true as you read this, then you shouldn't find a need to continue reading, let alone start, as you would already know before hand what the content of what I'm saying is correct since I must only exist in your mind.

If you follow this and are discovering what I'm writing as news to you, you have evidence that there is at least, an 'other' truth beyond yourself. Thus, it is not true to assert the Solipsist position. Mind you, as I've pointed out in the other thread (Nature of Contradiction), even though this is contradictory, I'm sure that if you recognize it, you will be motivated to find resolution to it by discovering a place where you can both appear to be the only subject in reality as well as other subjects external to yourself. ;)
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:34 pm

clarifyit4me wrote:
SweetPea wrote:
clarifyit4me wrote:
SweetPea wrote:
clarifyit4me wrote:
Not you, only the idea you have of yourself is wrong. You think you are born in a body and die in one. This your only problem. This idea is based on dreaming.
You should shut up in your dream and see if it works for us. :lol:


I did for a while, thats how I came to know that you also can only be dreaming. It happens with a sound mind and mature heart; it can only come by silencing the mind. When you grow up you will understand.
So you've regressed, relapsed. What stupidity!


The eternal process is creation, reflection and then abandonment. Are you telling me you never reflect ? You are digging yourself a hole again ? Never mind I will just backfill as usual and bury you in your own nonsense .
Finding fault again.

Your world is only a reflection of yourself
:lol:
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:37 pm

clarifyit4me wrote:I think we've had this conversation before sweetie and I distinctively remember

clarifyit4me wrote:You are only reacting out of memory; your memory is govern by your imagination,
:lol:
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:46 pm

clarifyit4me wrote:
SweetPea wrote:
clarifyit4me wrote:
SweetPea wrote:
clarifyit4me wrote:
Not you, only the idea you have of yourself is wrong. You think you are born in a body and die in one. This your only problem. This idea is based on dreaming.
You should shut up in your dream and see if it works for us. :lol:


I did for a while, thats how I came to know that you also can only be dreaming. It happens with a sound mind and mature heart; it can only come by silencing the mind. When you grow up you will understand.
So you've regressed, relapsed. What stupidity!


The eternal process is creation, reflection and then abandonment. Are you telling me you never reflect ? You are digging yourself a hole again ? Never mind I will just backfill as usual and bury you in your own nonsense .


You missed a opportunity because you were blinded with anger again. The correct answer is that even though you have Buddha mind, you returned to save all sentient beings. :lol:
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129

clarifyit4me
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby clarifyit4me » Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:39 pm

This is all well and good but it does not help you out of the hole you have dug for yourself. First you need to get out and redeem yourself. And you had better be quick otherwise the cap stone will be put in place and you will be forever deeply entangled in the nonsense of your own making.

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SweetPea
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SweetPea » Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:44 pm

clarifyit4me wrote:This is all well and good but it does not help you out of the hole you have dug for yourself. First you need to get out and redeem yourself. And you had better be quick otherwise the cap stone will be put in place and you will be forever deeply entangled in the nonsense of your own making.
Finding fault in the manifestation? :lol: Your world is only a reflection of yourself.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129


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