The banality of evil

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:10 am

Hills

No real argument with your points, but let me emphasize that my definition of evil deeds is INTENTIONAL harm. The alternative medico who genuinely believes is not intending harm, so does not fit into that definition of evil action. I definitely do not believe in evil as a thing in its own right. Evil is an adjective, rather than a noun.

A survey I read about suggested than one person in ten is what I term an arsehole. In other words, one person in ten is willing to harm others to a significant degree when he/she can get away with it, and gains selfish benefit.. Thus, one person in ten is evil.

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Re: The banality of evil

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:44 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:In other words, one person in ten is willing to harm others to a significant degree when he/she can get away with it,

Like what? One example at low end, other at high end? .... and btw.... not to include violations of criminal law? One aspect of "banality" is that it is "accepted." Or are we off banality and just working on evil?
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:52 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:So what is it that makes people evil?


A lack of respect for the rights of others.
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:18 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:When Trump was elected, there was a big upsurge in racist acts and commentary.


Can't argue with you there!
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:24 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:So what is it that makes people evil?
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:A lack of respect for the rights of others.
This from the person who called us Libtards and spammed the forum with Trump propaganda. :lol:

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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:08 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:So what is it that makes people evil?
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:A lack of respect for the rights of others.
This from the person who called us Libtards and spammed the forum with Trump propaganda. :lol:


So how did either of these violate your rights?
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:18 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:A lack of respect for the rights of others.
Matthew Ellard wrote: This, from the person who called us Libtards and spammed the forum with Trump propaganda. :lol:


Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:So how did either of these violate your rights?
So you think calling the members of this forum "Libtards" is respecting our rights?

Go back to Stormfront White Pride forum and stop trolling this forum.

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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:14 pm

I think a lack of respect for the rights of others is a bit too mild to be true evil. People do this all the time, often inadvertently.

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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:22 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:I think a lack of respect for the rights of others is a bit too mild to be true evil. People do this all the time, often inadvertently.


Evil is directly proportional to the degree of disrespect for rights. Someone who disrespects the rights of another inadvertently is not disrespecting their rights to the same degree as if they had disrespected their rights deliberately. So it is still evil, albeit less so, to inadvertently disrespect their rights through negligence.
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:17 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:I think a lack of respect for the rights of others is a bit too mild to be true evil. People do this all the time, often inadvertently.

Name a true evil.
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby fromthehills » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:54 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:I think a lack of respect for the rights of others is a bit too mild to be true evil. People do this all the time, often inadvertently.



I have to ask, so, the US bombs the {!#%@} out of what seems to be an enemy weapons depot, and instead, its a hospital.... could that evil be assumed by lack of investigation? Or smaller scale: I hear you slept with my wife from a third party, am I justified in punching you in the jaw without verification? And is it true evil, or just the ordinary evil if I harm you for no reason, from hearsay? Or is it true evil, or ordinary evil if you actually had slept with my wife?

It's a curious term, true evil. So I'm curious.

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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:05 am

As a "truly evil person" is not defined in DSM-6 I think it is more part of literature than a scientific description.

Hitchcock had a lot of fun portraying the truly evil Bruno in Strangers on a Train (1951) There is a hilarious scene where Bruno pops a child's balloon at a state fair, for no reason whatsoever.
Bruno pops balloon.jpg
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby fromthehills » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:11 am

Yes, I can see that, I agree that evil can describe psychopathy. But I can't get beyond subjective evil in anything else I can think of at the moment. And psychopathy is shaky, because it's probably a disorder. (Probably meaning it is unless I see evidence to the contrary)

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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:15 am

Name a true evil?
Stalin, in killing off political opponents.
There are numerous true evils. On the news today, a person (claimed by ISIS) who shot dead a policeman and a bystander in Paris. Every day we see true evil on the news. Committing murder in the name of Allah is truly evil, and if Allah actually existed, I am sure he would be appalled by the act.

Any deliberate act, causing significant harm, done for selfish reasons, is evil according to my definition. I don't think I would claim popping a child's balloon as evil, since the harm is trivial.

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Re: The banality of evil

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:19 am

Its hard to tell with the lack of personal insight that Lance presents himself with, but ..... it looks to me like Lance is closer than most to related to evil/true evil as an actual entity or force in human affairs. Its not. Hard to prove that something that doesn't exist..... doesn't exist.
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:26 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Name a true evil?
Stalin, in killing off political opponents.

Ah.... good. Let's see. How else are Nation States formed? A few opponents vying for top fascist killed off is much better than a nation of millions thrown into civil war. So evil? Sure.....ok. Compared to what unknown alternative??? then its more murky.

More evil was Stalin killing off the peasants of Ukraine thru starvation...... again.... consolidation of political power. HEY!!==that raises the answer I came up with privately 1-2 days ago: evil: people acting in concert. And when Stalin killed and starved, he wasn't acting alone.

Evil is a group activity. so is Virtue although it often leads by singular example.

Stalin/Hitler/Mao/Pol Pot...etc. Seems to be closely associated with killing lots of people? I could quibble.... but it actually works for me....... not knowing the counter factual outcome.
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:52 am

Bobbo

As I said before, evil is an adjective. Not a noun. So there are evil deeds, evil people, evil actions. There is no object called evil.

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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:11 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:A lack of respect for the rights of others.
Matthew Ellard wrote: This, from the person who called us Libtards and spammed the forum with Trump propaganda. :lol:


Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:So how did either of these violate your rights?
So you think calling the members of this forum "Libtards" is respecting our rights?


Yes I do. All I've done is call you a name, it's entirely up to you whether you take offence to it. I did not threaten you, nor did I incite violence against you. You have rights, your fee-fees do not.
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:15 am

Lance Kennedy wrote: Committing murder in the name of Allah is truly evil, and if Allah actually existed, I am sure he would be appalled by the act.


The evidence, such as it is, overwhelmingly suggests otherwise.
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:21 am

fromthehills wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:I think a lack of respect for the rights of others is a bit too mild to be true evil. People do this all the time, often inadvertently.



I have to ask, so, the US bombs the {!#%@} out of what seems to be an enemy weapons depot, and instead, its a hospital.... could that evil be assumed by lack of investigation?


Yes, but not as evil as if they had bombed the hospital deliberately (all else being equal).

Or smaller scale: I hear you slept with my wife from a third party, am I justified in punching you in the jaw without verification?


No. Unless I was the one who told you and I made it clear that I wasn't joking.

And is it true evil, or just the ordinary evil if I harm you for no reason, from hearsay? Or is it true evil, or ordinary evil if you actually had slept with my wife?


How is the distinction between "true" and "ordinary" evil meaningful?
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:38 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote: Committing murder in the name of Allah is truly evil, and if Allah actually existed, I am sure he would be appalled by the act.


The evidence, such as it is, overwhelmingly suggests otherwise.


I do not accept so-called "holy books" as evidence. The koran is like the Book of Mormon. The latter was 'dictated to the prophet by an angel.' Except the prophet was a convicted con artist. I strongly suspect the koran, which was also 'dictated to the prophet by an angel' was also a con job. Both religious founders, Joseph Smith and Mohammed, received money from their followers, and both ended up with lots of 'wives' and hence lots of sex. The rewards for a good swindle.

If Allah actually exists (seriously unlikely), then his nature would be utterly unlike that written down by religious madmen.

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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:42 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:A lack of respect for the rights of others.
Matthew Ellard wrote: So you think calling the members of this forum "Libtards" is respecting our rights?
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Yes I do. All I've done is call you a name, it's entirely up to you whether you take offence to it.
So you called us Libtards, with intent to insult Liberals, and insanely claim we took it as an insult even though it was your lack of respect?

You're quite nutty, aren't you?
:lol:

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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:01 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote: Committing murder in the name of Allah is truly evil, and if Allah actually existed, I am sure he would be appalled by the act.


The evidence, such as it is, overwhelmingly suggests otherwise.


I do not accept so-called "holy books" as evidence. The koran is like the Book of Mormon. The latter was 'dictated to the prophet by an angel.' Except the prophet was a convicted con artist. I strongly suspect the koran, which was also 'dictated to the prophet by an angel' was also a con job. Both religious founders, Joseph Smith and Mohammed, received money from their followers, and both ended up with lots of 'wives' and hence lots of sex. The rewards for a good swindle.

If Allah actually exists (seriously unlikely), then his nature would be utterly unlike that written down by religious madmen.


When it comes to religious entities such as Allah, the so-called holy books are the only "evidence" we've got. You cannot dismiss a set of scriptures in their entirety and then claim that a particular aspect of those scriptures is (or would be) a certain way in reality. You might as well say that The Wizard of Oz is a work of fiction but that the Wicked Witch of the West would be kind-hearted if she actually exists.

Your assertion about the nature of Allah is not only totally unsupported, it is totally unsupportable.
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:03 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:A lack of respect for the rights of others.
Matthew Ellard wrote: So you think calling the members of this forum "Libtards" is respecting our rights?
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Yes I do. All I've done is call you a name, it's entirely up to you whether you take offence to it.
So you called us Libtards, with intent to insult Liberals, and insanely claim we took it as an insult even though it was your lack of respect?


I showed a lack of respect for your fee-fees, not for your rights.
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:07 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:I showed a lack of respect to your fee-fees, not to your rights.


You really are mad. WTF is is "fee-fee"?

...and why do you pretend to be an Australian on the Rational Skeptic forum and use an Australian flag?
:lol:
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/gener ... l#p2474963

Are you a member of the Adelaide Institute?
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:11 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:I showed a lack of respect to your fee-fees, not to your rights.


You really are mad. WTF is is "fee-fee"?

...and why do you pretend to be an Australian on the Rational Skeptic forum and use an Australian flag?
:lol:
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/gener ... l#p2474963


Fee-fees = feelings.

Why do you go around trying to stalk people online?
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:14 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Why do you go around trying to stalk people online?
Answer my question. Why are you using an Australian Flag as your home country on the Rational Skeptic Forum?

Are you a member of the Adelaide Institute? Are you trying to get around the court orders?
:lol:

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Re: The banality of evil

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:49 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:

Your assertion about the nature of Allah is not only totally unsupported, it is totally unsupportable.


I hate to admit it, but you are right.

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Re: The banality of evil

Postby digress » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:32 pm

I'm certain others on this board know more details than I do about WW2, but there were diaries published that spoke about the gradual change as a life as a jew under germany at the time. I cant recall their titles, but they recorded little movements over time. For example one day the jews weren't allowed to own cats, so they took away their cats. The next month it was something different and small until it gradually lead up to detainment and so forth.

The (Nazi) support was much more subtle than portrayed because what's it to you, in the grand scheme of things, if in order to keep your job and pay your bills, a handful of people can't own a cat? So you go in and take their cat and the world moves on. Its german law, you're a good patriot and you can fall asleep knowing nobody was hurt.

I'm broad stroking the painting but it's the slow corruption over time leading from ordering the removal of pets to orders of firing your weapon. And if you wont do it - somebody else will (and you may be out of a job). It is a stale portrayal and why we simply don't portray it.

Now we shift into 2017 where we ask, What's the harm in releasing an app that captures all the private data of the individual? They aren't being hurt and if "I" don't do it, the technology exists, somebody else will. It's for YOUR security we do this. And what's the big deal if I don't know how our political system works, I'm told it's my duty to vote and Hey, Trump sounds like a non-politician, we need some change around here.....

JUST SAYIN' "banalities of evil"
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:46 pm

hi there digress, long time no see!

no sure if you are, but it sounds a bit like the point Timothy Snyder is making in his booklet "On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century" (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/33917107-on-tyranny), which boils down to:
Tyranny is something we let happen by not trying to stop it; when we expect things to somehow work out, we hand power to those who have no intention of ever giving it back.
Our lack of privacy makes us extremely vulnerable to manipulation or simple blackmail - we need to find ways to protect us from this.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
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Re: The banality of evil

Postby digress » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:37 pm

I dont know Timothy Snyder's booklet, but this is certainly a complicated topic. My point was to draw a line between how unintentional evil coexists with us today just as it did during the 1930's by showing how thinking to remove a pet is harmless vs. thinking how spying on browsing history is also harmless. Harmless to who? And how do harmless actions like these lead to consequential power and to the slow corruption to our own political positions?

To put it another way, Who here would argue they don't have a cell phone because they know their position is easily tracked? We all know it's happening and data like this is being collected against our wants or wills, but what's life without a cell phone? That's the perverted corruption we all are dealing with on a daily and accepting it as a fight not worth fighting. Pros: I've a phone, life is easy. Cons: I've no phone, life is hard and no guarantee a change will occur. So I'm now corrupted because i believe my sense of justice isnt perverted by having this unconstitutional data hording device.
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