1 chance in 100,000,000,000,000,000

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1 chance in 100,000,000,000,000,000

Postby Anchor of Life » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:28 am

There are at least 456 Old Testament prophetic references that pertain to a future person that ALL were fulfilled in the life of Jesus. Science and mathematics professor Peter Stoner estimated a reasonable probability that one man might have fulfilled just 8 of these 456 prophesies at one chance in 10 to the 17th power (100,000,000,000,000,000).
If we took this many silver dollars and covered the state of Texas two feet deep, and marked one of the coins in the pile. What chance would a blinfolded man have of picking the right coin on his first attempt? Just the same chance the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man...(Peter W. Stoner, Science Speaks, Moody Press, p. 107).
And these odds don't account for the other 448 prophecies also fulfilled in the person of Jesus!
"This hope is a strong and trustworthy anchor for our souls." (Hebrews 6:19)

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Postby Major Malfunction » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:20 am

Hmm... *furiously manipulates his sliderule* What an amazing coincidence! By my calculations, those are the exact same odds of Anchor having an original thought!
This being was produced using the same process as other beings, and therefore, may contain traces of nuts.

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Postby Pyrrho » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:33 am

Fulfilling prophecies is nice work if you can get it.

Let's say someone writes a few dramatic prophecies. All someone else has to do, later, is to do all the things written in the prophecies...or someone else can claim that you did.

That's why the JREF Million-Dollar Challenge requires demonstrations in real time. Glorious stories of miraculous events are only glorious stories of miraculous events, and we can see those every day on TV and in the movies.
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Postby Major Malfunction » Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:00 am

Which is why Nostradamus' prophecies make the second best selling book of all time. Second only to the Bible. But Nostradamus was way smarter. He set the expiry date to 3,000-somthing... And that was the only specific date. He's got a good thousand or more years left in him. The NT's prophecies expired about the same time it was written. Pretty shabby shelf-life by comparison.
This being was produced using the same process as other beings, and therefore, may contain traces of nuts.

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Postby Nos Tlov » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:20 pm

Here's a reference to data referenced in Anchor's entry.

http://www.familybible.org/Articles/Bib ... bility.htm

The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner’s work in Science Speaks to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. The analysis is concerned with the following eight prophecies:

1. Messiah is to be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2; fulfilled in Matt. 2:1-7; John 7:42; Luke 2:47).

2. Messiah is to be preceded by a Messenger (Isaiah 40:3; Malachi 3:1; fulfilled in Matthew 3:1-3; 11:10; John 1:23; Luke 1:17).

3. Messiah is to enter Jerusalem on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; fulfilled in Luke 35-37; Matthew 21:6-11).

4. Messiah is to be betrayed by a friend (Psalms 41:9; 55:12-14; fulfilled in Matthew 10:4; 26:49-50; John 13:21).

5. Messiah is to be sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; fulfilled in Matthew 26:15; 27:3).

6. The money for which Messiah is sold is to be thrown “to the potter” in God’s house (Zechariah 11:13; fulfilled in Matthew 27:5-7).

7. Messiah is to be silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; fulfilled in Matthew 27:12).

8. Messiah is to be executed by crucifixion as a thief (Psalm 22:16; Zechariah 12:10; Isaiah 53:5,12; fulfilled in Luke 23:33; John 20:25; Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27,28).

Stoner says that by applying the modern science of probability to just these eight prophecies, “… We find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 1017.” That would be one in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order for us to be able to comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that:


One would have to be in complete denial, or simply unaware, of retro-fitting so called "prophecies". The odds are in my favor that people who accept this form of intellectual dishonesty could care less, as long as it looks like "evidence". To hell with it.

I ran the author of the lead article on the link -- Josh McDowell -- and came up with this from his site.

Are you a skeptic?
by Josh McDowell

I was a skeptic too until I took a good hard look at the claims of Jesus Christ. In college I met several students who challenged me to take a closer look, to study and examine the Christian faith.

I took the challenge, feeling certain I could prove Christianity to be false, a religion built on nice stories that couldn't stand up to the test of truth.

But as I dug deeper and deeper into the claims of Christianity, I was shocked. I found facts, not fiction. I found so much evidence that I could only come to one conclusion Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He was crucified, He died, and He was resurrected on the third day.

Soon after this discovery, I accepted Jesus as my Savior and Lord. That was 39 years ago. My life has been completely changed because I have a personal relationship with Christ.

As a skeptic, you've probably heard this before, but don't just shrug it off I challenge you, as those students challenged me examine the claims of Jesus Christ for yourself. If there's even the slightest chance that He truly is the Son of God, shouldn't you be willing to find out?

To get started, why not order a copy of More Than a Carpenter. Or check out the Apologetics Resource Center.


To answer Mr. McDowell -- Yes, I am a skeptic. I am not taking Pascal's wager to satisfy your belief system.

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Postby Anchor of Life » Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:06 pm

Jim Dominic wrote:Fulfilling prophecies is nice work if you can get it.

Let's say someone writes a few dramatic prophecies. All someone else has to do, later, is to do all the things written in the prophecies...or someone else can claim that you did.

That's why the JREF Million-Dollar Challenge requires demonstrations in real time. Glorious stories of miraculous events are only glorious stories of miraculous events, and we can see those every day on TV and in the movies.


Most of Jesus' disciples abandoned Him at the end. They were afraid that the Roman Empire would hunt down any followers of Jesus and deal with them in a like manner. Why would they risk their lives spreading a lie. The answer is The Resurrection. After seeing Him alive again, they were transformed from scared, hiding men into bold proclaimers of His resurrection, willing to die for their conviction. As Gary Habermas, apologist and philosopher, has said, "...liars do not make martyrs."
There is NO objective reason to doubt Jesus' life, death, and resurrection some 2,000 years ago.
"This hope is a strong and trustworthy anchor for our souls." (Hebrews 6:19)

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Postby Bearguin » Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:29 pm

Anchor of Life wrote:The answer is The Resurrection.


You willing to take the Easter Challenge on that particular steaming pile of mythos?
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Re: 1 chance in 100,000,000,000,000,000

Postby NeroXIV » Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:37 pm

Anchor of Life wrote:There are at least 456 Old Testament prophetic references that pertain to a future person that ALL were fulfilled in the life of Jesus. Science and mathematics professor Peter Stoner estimated a reasonable probability...


Once again you are passing off others' words as your own. Seems pretty unchristian to me.

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Postby NeroXIV » Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:39 pm

The Bible is true! There's proof .... in the Bible!

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Postby Nos Tlov » Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:02 pm

There is NO objective reason to doubt Jesus' life, death, and resurrection some 2,000 years ago.


I'm curious as to how you are using the word "objective" in this sentence Anchor? Please be more specific as to the meaning. I obviously have a good idea what is being said as a statement of fact, but I am weary of shifting definitions when one is uncomfortable with one being used. So, this is my reason to ask.

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Postby Beleth » Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:35 pm

Nos Tlov wrote:Here's a reference to data referenced in Anchor's entry.

http://www.familybible.org/Articles/Bib ... bility.htm

The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner’s work in Science Speaks to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. The analysis is concerned with the following eight prophecies:

1. Messiah is to be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2; fulfilled in Matt. 2:1-7; John 7:42; Luke 2:47).


"Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb's second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chr.2:18, 2:50-52, 4:4).

What Matthew did in 2:1-7 would be similar to claiming someone born in the state of Washington met a prophecy that stated "a person will be born into George Washington's family."

Jesus did not fulfill this prophecy.

(From here on, the quotes are going to be one level off; I apologize in advance.)
2. Messiah is to be preceded by a Messenger (Isaiah 40:3; Malachi 3:1; fulfilled in Matthew 3:1-3; 11:10; John 1:23; Luke 1:17).

Given that anyone bucking for Messiah position would know this passage already, the odds of this coming true are 1:1.

3. Messiah is to enter Jerusalem on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; fulfilled in Luke 35-37; Matthew 21:6-11).

It helps to read the entire prophecy:

9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
9:12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;
9:13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.

It is clear when taken as a whole that this is predicting a great military leader.

Jesus did not fulfill this prophecy.

4. Messiah is to be betrayed by a friend (Psalms 41:9; 55:12-14; fulfilled in Matthew 10:4; 26:49-50; John 13:21).

Who in their lifetime has never been betrayed by a friend?
Odds of this happening 1:1.

5. Messiah is to be sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; fulfilled in Matthew 26:15; 27:3).

First off, Matthew says Jeremiah said this, not Zechariah. But no matter.

God's not talking about any Messiah in Zech 11:12. He is talking about the severance of a relationship. Zech 11 is talking about God-as-shepherd. He has two staves; he breaks one, asks for his severance package, and then breaks the other. The severance package he is given is the aforementioned 30 pieces of silver, which was slang for the times for a small amount of money; what we today might call "chicken feed".

If this is truly a Messianic prophecy, we have to include what comes directly after; Zech 11:15 says that the next shepherd will be "foolish". 11:16 goes into some detail, actually:
11:16 For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.

So, yeah, that doesn't sound much like Peter or Paul to me.

6. The money for which Messiah is sold is to be thrown “to the potter” in God’s house (Zechariah 11:13; fulfilled in Matthew 27:5-7).

Simply didn't happen. Not according to the Bible at least. Money is thrown at the priests, and given to the potter (for his field). Still, I'll be generous and call it 10:1.

7. Messiah is to be silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; fulfilled in Matthew 27:12).

Fulfilled because of pre-knowledge, as #3 was. Odds therefore 1:1.

8. Messiah is to be executed by crucifixion as a thief (Psalm 22:16; Zechariah 12:10; Isaiah 53:5,12; fulfilled in Luke 23:33; John 20:25; Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27,28).

I'd buy Ps 22:16 if the stuff in Ps 22:12-14 happened too. But they didn't. So not applicable.

My final odds tally is 10:1. How many people over the years have claimed to be the Messiah?
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Postby Beleth » Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:38 pm

Anchor of Life wrote:Most of Jesus' disciples abandoned Him at the end. They were afraid that the Roman Empire would hunt down any followers of Jesus and deal with them in a like manner. Why would they risk their lives spreading a lie.

Wait, I thought you just said they abandoned him at the end.

If I died believing something, does that make it true?
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Re: 1 chance in 100,000,000,000,000,000

Postby brainfart » Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:42 pm

Anchor of Life wrote:There are at least 456 Old Testament prophetic references that pertain to a future person that ALL were fulfilled in the life of Jesus. Science and mathematics professor Peter Stoner estimated a reasonable probability that one man might have fulfilled just 8 of these 456 prophesies at one chance in 10 to the 17th power (100,000,000,000,000,000).
If we took this many silver dollars and covered the state of Texas two feet deep, and marked one of the coins in the pile. What chance would a blinfolded man have of picking the right coin on his first attempt? Just the same chance the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man...(Peter W. Stoner, Science Speaks, Moody Press, p. 107).
And these odds don't account for the other 448 prophecies also fulfilled in the person of Jesus!
might as well just add in all the ones to be fulfilled in the future right now !
bltthhhhh

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Postby Jay Hoover » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:12 pm

Anchor of Life wrote:Most of Jesus' disciples abandoned Him at the end. They were afraid that the Roman Empire would hunt down any followers of Jesus and deal with them in a like manner. Why would they risk their lives spreading a lie. The answer is The Resurrection. After seeing Him alive again, they were transformed from scared, hiding men into bold proclaimers of His resurrection, willing to die for their conviction. As Gary Habermas, apologist and philosopher, has said, "...liars do not make martyrs."

There is NO objective reason to doubt Jesus' life, death, and resurrection some 2,000 years ago.


Plenty of people swear off and sacrifice themselves for what is later shown to be a lie. Why would people risk their lives to die alongside of Jim Jones or David Koresh? And plenty of liars are martyrs to their cause, and continue to be adored by their followers. Hitler for instance, was a liar, and led a juggernaut of faithful into the abyss with him, and he killed himself as wel. To this day their are people who follow him as if he was a noble visionary.

People like you will never accept any evidence to the contrary of what you want to believe is true. There is no corrborating evidence for the life, death, and alleged ressurrection of who is supposed to be the single most important person in Earth's history, and according to your own book, FAITH is what matters.

So you have your faith, and you should be content with it. Why you then try to "prove" your belief has merit based on thin, flimsy, and easily deconstructed nonsensical arguments is beyond me-- other than it being mildly entertaining to pick apart these laughable "arguments" devoid of logic and wholly self-serving.

I challenge you to adhere to your own belief system:

Matthew 10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

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Postby In2_wishin » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:27 pm

To respond to the threadstarter, i would say that yes i think the odds of the prophets having their prophecies come true are astronomical. I think those prophets are tapping into some form of conciousness whether it be god or some yet unexplained dimensional mind travel. We must always keep an open mind to these things, or we will never fully learn how the human mind/brain works, and that would be a shame..

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Postby Beleth » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:34 pm

If someone grows up in an environment where they are told what someone will do some day, and they set out to do that and actually get it done, have they fulfilled a prophecy?

For example, if Neil Armstrong's parents told him as he was growing up that some day, someone will walk on the moon, and because of that Neil studied hard in school to become an astronaut, does that make Neil a prophecy-fulfiller?
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Postby Jay Hoover » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:43 pm

In2_wishin wrote:We must always keep an open mind to these things, or we will never fully learn how the human mind/brain works, and that would be a shame..


"It's good to have an open mind, but not so opened that your brains fall out."

(I believe Carl Sagan credited a military office with that all-too-apt adage. I'm sure someone else will know the reference).

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Postby izittrue » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:02 pm

Beleth wrote:If someone grows up in an environment where they are told what someone will do some day, and they set out to do that and actually get it done, have they fulfilled a prophecy?

For example, if Neil Armstrong's parents told him as he was growing up that some day, someone will walk on the moon, and because of that Neil studied hard in school to become an astronaut, does that make Neil a prophecy-fulfiller?


only if they wrote a holy book of Quatrains :roll:
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Postby xouper » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:16 pm

Beleth wrote:If someone grows up in an environment where they are told what someone will do some day, and they set out to do that and actually get it done, have they fulfilled a prophecy?

For example, if Neil Armstrong's parents told him as he was growing up that some day, someone will walk on the moon, and because of that Neil studied hard in school to become an astronaut, does that make Neil a prophecy-fulfiller?

According to Mrs. Gorsky, it would. ;)

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Postby jj » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:27 pm

izittrue wrote:
Beleth wrote:If someone grows up in an environment where they are told what someone will do some day, and they set out to do that and actually get it done, have they fulfilled a prophecy?

For example, if Neil Armstrong's parents told him as he was growing up that some day, someone will walk on the moon, and because of that Neil studied hard in school to become an astronaut, does that make Neil a prophecy-fulfiller?


only if they wrote a holy book of Quatrains :roll:


In the time of flying letters,
Came a man standing on the dust.
His weight that as of a small boy
And his head surrounded by crystal.
Why does an infallable book have to be constantly revised?

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Postby Mathew Scott Fitsgarrett » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:48 pm

My impression that this discussion is in the science and mathematics section is because it hinges on probability.

I did notice that the mathematics professor who sited probability for the events under discussion didn't bother to calculate; he only "estimated a reasonable probabilitiy...."

"Science and mathematics professor Peter Stoner estimated a reasonable probability that one man might have fulfilled just 8 of these 456 prophesies at one chance in 10 to the 17th power (100,000,000,000,000,000)."

Although I am somewhat skeptical about estimated reasonable probabilities of ancient events which may or may not have happened in the manner described, the following quoted actual calculation rooted in that same era sheds some certain light:

"If you check the index of my book for the name Whipple, that section describes how he calculated that mathematically 2 pennies at 5% annual interest from Jesus Birth, became "worth" 34 billion spheres of gold, each sphere the size of the earth!"

This is claimed to be actual calculation of a hypothetical event.

MSF

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Postby debngeof » Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:08 am

Major Malfunction wrote:Hmm... *furiously manipulates his sliderule* What an amazing coincidence! By my calculations, those are the exact same odds of Anchor having an original thought!


Major ... That's incredibly Ecclesiastical of you to say. King Solomon once said "There's nothing new under the sun."

Just in case you need a hand with that it means there is no such thing as an original thought. Now sit still while I change your diaper.
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Postby debngeof » Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:14 am

Jim Dominic wrote:Fulfilling prophecies is nice work if you can get it.

Let's say someone writes a few dramatic prophecies. All someone else has to do, later, is to do all the things written in the prophecies...or someone else can claim that you did.

That's why the JREF Million-Dollar Challenge requires demonstrations in real time. Glorious stories of miraculous events are only glorious stories of miraculous events, and we can see those every day on TV and in the movies.


I see. It's so clear. Just one question.

Did you pick out your own parents or where you were going to be born?

How about this one ... If you were accused of a capital crime by a court that was doing almost everything wrong or illegally would you object?

Or my favorite ( probably Anchors too ) Would you voluntarily let someone take you to court knowing that it would end with you being nailed to a cross?
"...Now if that's a fact - tell me ... am I lying?

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Postby Pyrrho » Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:24 am

debngeof wrote:
Jim Dominic wrote:Fulfilling prophecies is nice work if you can get it.

Let's say someone writes a few dramatic prophecies. All someone else has to do, later, is to do all the things written in the prophecies...or someone else can claim that you did.

That's why the JREF Million-Dollar Challenge requires demonstrations in real time. Glorious stories of miraculous events are only glorious stories of miraculous events, and we can see those every day on TV and in the movies.


I see. It's so clear. Just one question.

Did you pick out your own parents or where you were going to be born?

I don't think so. I don't really know. I rather doubt it.
How about this one ... If you were accused of a capital crime by a court that was doing almost everything wrong or illegally would you object?

Sure.
Or my favorite ( probably Anchors too ) Would you voluntarily let someone take you to court knowing that it would end with you being nailed to a cross?

No.
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Postby debngeof » Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:26 am

Major Malfunction wrote:Which is why Nostradamus' prophecies make the second best selling book of all time. Second only to the Bible. But Nostradamus was way smarter. He set the expiry date to 3,000-somthing... And that was the only specific date. He's got a good thousand or more years left in him. The NT's prophecies expired about the same time it was written. Pretty shabby shelf-life by comparison.


Nostro was wrong more than he was right?
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Postby debngeof » Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:30 am

Bearguin wrote:
Anchor of Life wrote:The answer is The Resurrection.


You willing to take the Easter Challenge on that particular steaming pile of mythos?


The easter challenge has already been done. Find something else.
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Re: 1 chance in 100,000,000,000,000,000

Postby debngeof » Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:31 am

NeroXIV wrote:
Anchor of Life wrote:There are at least 456 Old Testament prophetic references that pertain to a future person that ALL were fulfilled in the life of Jesus. Science and mathematics professor Peter Stoner estimated a reasonable probability...


Once again you are passing off others' words as your own. Seems pretty unchristian to me.


Have you never quoted your venerated Sagan?
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Re: 1 chance in 100,000,000,000,000,000

Postby Pyrrho » Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:46 am

debngeof wrote:
NeroXIV wrote:
Anchor of Life wrote:There are at least 456 Old Testament prophetic references that pertain to a future person that ALL were fulfilled in the life of Jesus. Science and mathematics professor Peter Stoner estimated a reasonable probability...


Once again you are passing off others' words as your own. Seems pretty unchristian to me.


Have you never quoted your venerated Sagan?

Not without crediting the source. Anchor lost privileges once before for ignoring the copyright rule. We're obliged to take copyright seriously in this day and age of DMCA. That, and it's the right thing to do.
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Postby debngeof » Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:52 am

There seems to be this idea that being Christian means being better than average. Why is that? At best I would say that being Christan is a sign of self awareness. We don't pretend to be better or worse. That FACT is that the Bible states all fall short of the glory of God. The only difference is that the Christian knows it.

I agree with the credit thing to a point. Hear say is un-credible no?
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Postby Pyrrho » Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:57 am

debngeof wrote:There seems to be this idea that being Christian means being better than average. Why is that? At best I would say that being Christan is a sign of self awareness. We don't pretend to be better or worse. That FACT is that the Bible states all fall short of the glory of God. The only difference is that the Christian knows it.

I agree with the credit thing to a point. Hear say is un-credible no?

The Christian who cites the Bible, in which it clearly states, "Thou shalt not steal," and goes ahead and steals, is practicing hypocrisy.
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Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:03 am

The best synopsis of prophesy-mongers' tricks I've ever seen:

Prophecy for Dummies by Allan Glenn (Winace)

:idea:
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Postby Pyrrho » Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:16 am

Damn. I remember WinAce. Too bad he's gone. :(

I sure hope someone archives his site.
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Postby xouper » Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:59 am

debngeof wrote:
Bearguin wrote:
Anchor of Life wrote:The answer is The Resurrection.

You willing to take the Easter Challenge on that particular steaming pile of mythos?

The easter challenge has already been done.

If I may ask, where has this been done? I've seen James Holding's attempt, but that falls short of the mark. But if someone else has done it, I would like to read it. Thanks.

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Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:12 am

debngeof wrote:Major ... That's incredibly Ecclesiastical of you to say. King Solomon once said "There's nothing new under the sun."

Just in case you need a hand with that it means there is no such thing as an original thought. Now sit still while I change your diaper.

Solomon is not a member of this forum.

Astronauts wear nappies, therefore, I am an astronaut.
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Postby Jay Hoover » Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:24 am

debngeof wrote:There seems to be this idea that being Christian means being better than average. Why is that? At best I would say that being Christan is a sign of self awareness. We don't pretend to be better or worse. That FACT is that the Bible states all fall short of the glory of God. The only difference is that the Christian knows it.


Demonstrate this god so that we can see if we do fall short of him/her/them/it.

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Postby Paulhoff » Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:42 pm

debngeof wrote:That FACT is that the Bible states all fall short of the glory of God.

Which so-called god, yours, your neighbors, your fathers, your mothers, etc.

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Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:22 pm

debngeof wrote:There seems to be this idea that being Christian means being better than average. Why is that? At best I would say that being Christan is a sign of self awareness. We don't pretend to be better or worse. That FACT is that the Bible states all fall short of the glory of God. The only difference is that the Christian knows it.


You're telling the truth as you see it, but you're leaving out the kicker.

That to "fall short of the glory of God" means that you are born with the eternal torment of perdition as your default destination.

The Christian is "saved" from that by the blood of Christ, etc.

In effect, you believe that God says "love me or I'll torture you forever".

If this is a mis-characterization, please explain your views concerning Hell.

Thanks.
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Postby debngeof » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:35 pm

Demonstrate this god so that we can see if we do fall short of him/her/them/it.[/quote]

I'd say look around but everything you see is an accident. I'd refer you to the scientific accuracy of the Bible but you won't belive it.

What would you belive?

If I were able to "demonstrate" God I would be Him. Lucky for you I'm not. I don't appreciate you as much as God does.
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Postby debngeof » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:45 pm

You're telling the truth as you see it, but you're leaving out the kicker.

That to "fall short of the glory of God" means that you are born with the eternal torment of perdition as your default destination.

The Christian is "saved" from that by the blood of Christ, etc.

In effect, you believe that God says "love me or I'll torture you forever".

If this is a mis-characterization, please explain your views concerning Hell.


Okay-

The first thing that ever went wrong was because of Adam's disobedience. God is not threatening us. He's giving us a way out of the destination that we've paved for ourselves by choosing to be disobedient. You need to realize that the reason we have the attitude of self relience is because our nature was perverted from that point till now.

We were perfect and then Satan interjected a lie via doubt "Did God really say you will die?"

Spiritually - Yes.

God knew that it was going to go wrong in the first place because He exsists outside of His creation - time. That's eternity.

This speaks of God's amazing love. If He knew we ( Mankind ) were going to mess it up then why try? Becuase He wants us to be with Him.

Listen ... It's up to you. You can either believe or not. That's the beauty of it. God will not violate your sovereingty.

He trying to save us from our own mistakes.
"...Now if that's a fact - tell me ... am I lying?

-Clifford Worley

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Postby Paulhoff » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:51 pm

debngeof wrote:I'd say look around but everything you see is an accident. I'd refer you to the scientific accuracy of the Bible but you won't belive it.

An accident, what do you mean by accident, I don't need a so-called god to explain things around me. And using the idea of a god explains nothing. It doesn't tell me how to make anything or do anything.

Paul

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Christianity, Years of fear. - mine


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