Some unusual statements by a Christian

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Monster
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Some unusual statements by a Christian

Postby Monster » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:52 am

The youtube video below is a post-debate radio show. The debate in question was between Sye Ten Bruggencate and Matt Dillahunty. The youtube video below isn't the debate; it's an hour and a half post-debate radio show.

Sye Ten Bruggencate is one of the worst religious debaters I've ever seen. However, I must give him credit for saying two things that other Christians haven't. In the youtube video below, he said the following two things.

1. "God isn't all loving. He hates some." Spoken around 1:07:57. The question that lead to that answer started around 1:07:30.
2. "Your free choices have been predestined by God." Spoken around 1:24:14. The discussion that lead to that statement started around 1:23:20.

It's that #2 statement that really jumped out at me. It's not possible to say that that statement is sane or remotely logical in any way.

No sane person should ever willingly "debate" Bruggencate on anything. His stances are logically unsound, inherently circular, and he's just plain annoying to no end. Listening to this post-debate youtube video brought up my blood pressure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcJQX9nm-lw
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Re: Some unusual statements by a Christian

Postby TJrandom » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:54 am

I wouldn`t have been tempted, but thanks for the warning anyway. :good:

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Re: Some unusual statements by a Christian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:44 am

"If the religious were open to common sense, they wouldn't be religious to begin with."

aka: they are all nuts.

..............................................but i thought the same thing when listening to an entirely sensible Jesuit on a panel on Star Talk with Neil deGrasse Tyson talking to Dawson. What irritated me there was the kudo's the Jesuit got for making every "mystery" we have the equivalent of the only justification for gods existence.

Just plain silly.
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Re: Some unusual statements by a Christian

Postby craig4 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:23 pm

Not as weird as saying a guy can spend a few hours in a gay S&M session on Friday, sleep it off Saturday, get up early on Sunday and then forgive sins. I mean, seriously, that's pretty out there.

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Re: Some unusual statements by a Christian

Postby Dimebag » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:10 am

Monster wrote:2. "Your free choices have been predestined by God." Spoken around 1:24:14. The discussion that lead to that statement started around 1:23:20.

It's that #2 statement that really jumped out at me. It's not possible to say that that statement is sane or remotely logical in any way.

I think in order to discuss that #2 statement it could be useful to remove the concept of God and instead rephrase the statement, "your free choices exist within a deterministic universe". I'm not sure if you would agree if that is equivalent, if you were to look at the idea of God from a more naturalistic deist perspective, the setting in motion from the beginning, could an organism still operate freely? Basically, is compatibalism possible in a deterministic universe? It depends which idea of free will you believe humans possess. If you mean a libertarian free will, where a person could have made a different choice if all conditions were the same a second time around, no this is not possible in a deterministic universe, the tape would play the same way every time.

But there is a sense in which a person does have choices, or can entertain possibilities, and this is entirely possible in a deterministic universe. Our brain has the ability to imagine possible outcomes of potential actions. We can basically run simulations within out head, and evaluate possible outcomes of potential actions for a particular choice point. We can directly trace the causes of these possibilities to previous events, and we could theoretically determine what choice we would make, given enough information about our brains. But the sequence within the decision making process isn't linear, it is branching, into several possible actions. Those possible actions are narrowed down by any number of reasons; we imagine the outcome of an action to be potentially undesirable, we associate another potential action with a fear response and so avoid that action, and so come upon the most satisfying of potential choices, based on our character (approach/avoidance behaviour, motivation, goals, etc). That is the sense in which we have a choice, a determined choice yes, but still one which would not exist had we not evaluated multiple possibilities.

I think this is the way in which we can have a sense of free will worth wanting in a deterministic universe. If we can alter our behaviour patterns, the lower level causal factors which guide our choices, in effect we can change the default way in which we make decisions. Our brain is able to override these lower level forces, thanks to our more abstract rationalising abilities.

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Re: Some unusual statements by a Christian

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:24 pm

Unusual nowadays maybe, but perfectly in line with historic Christianity.

1) In fact it makes more sense than the doctrine that of the Niceness of God. That is a fairly recent heresy that could only exist in a society as comfortable as ours.

2) On the other hand the predestination one makes no sense at all. But it is pure Saint Augustine, not an individual peculiarity of that one apologist.
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Re: Some unusual statements by a Christian

Postby Poodle » Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:34 pm

Meh. Sorry if toes are trodden on, but anyone still discussing the ins and outs of something that meets all the definitions of a fairy story needs to take a long, hard look at themselves. Goblins are intrinsically more interesting and may have a longer pedigree.

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Re: Some unusual statements by a Christian

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:39 pm

True. Nobodaddy is relatively a latecomer.

Ghosts are the earliest of all. Everybody sees ghosts, regardless of belief system or culture.

You might call them dreams about dead people rather than ghosts. :notsure:
Aldous Huxley wrote:A government with a comprehensive plan for the betterment of society is a government that uses torture.


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