My Hedonistic Logical Argument

God, the FSM, and everything else.
Omniverse
Poster
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:09 am

My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby Omniverse » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:46 pm

Edit: I am going to make this logical argument better and much more brief than it was before:

1.) Perceiving something to be of good value, worth, joy, beauty, inspiration, love, a heavenly experience, and happiness to you can only be an experience for you that has a good quality. In short, having good value and worth, along with joy, beauty, and happiness in your life is always a good quality of experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it. Even if you thought that a bad quality of experience was something good to you, then that would presuppose a good quality of experience.

2.) Perceiving something to be of bad value, torment, suffering, a hellish experience, and misery to you can only be an experience for you that has a bad quality. In short, having bad value, along with suffering, misery, and torment in your life is always a bad quality of experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it. Even if you thought that a good quality of experience was something bad to you, then even that would presuppose a bad quality of experience.

3.) Perceiving something to be of neither good value, worth, bad value, joy, beauty, happiness, suffering, torment, or misery to you can only be an experience for you that has no quality. In short, having neither good value, worth, nor bad value, along with having no suffering, a hellish experience, a heavenly experience, misery, torment, happiness, or beauty in your life is always a neutral quality of experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it. Even if you thought that a neutral quality of experience was something good or bad to you, then even that would presuppose a good or bad quality of experience.

4.) The quality of experience we have (i.e. good, bad, or neutral) is not a matter of value judgment. This is because qualities are distinct from value judgments. If you judged and believed that an orange was an apple, then that would not change the qualities that this orange has and somehow make it into an apple. Likewise, physical pain possessing a painful quality of experience is not a matter of value judgment either. Physical pain being a painful experience is what makes it physical pain in the first place just as how the qualities of an orange are what make it an orange.

In that same sense, the type of experience we have also dictates whether that experience has a good quality, bad quality, or no quality. As you can see here, it is all about the experiences we have and not about the terms we give to these experiences. It is the experiences that define the terms; not vice versa. We do not define what type of experience we have (i.e. painful, joyful, beautiful, hellish, etc.). Let me give you an example.

If someone was dying of thirst and he/she had an empty glass, then defining the emptiness inside that glass as being water would be nothing more than a term. It would not give this person the actual quality of water to save his/her life. Experience is everything to life. Without it, then we would either be dead or unconscious. A person's experience is very precious and should not be left out of the picture just as how the idea that this person needed an actual quality of water to save his/her life should not be left out of the picture.

5.) Our good moods/feelings (which I define as only being states of well being induced by our brain chemicals/neurotransmitters) are the only experiences that possess the good quality, our bad moods/feelings are the only experiences that possess the bad quality, and a non feeling experience can only possess no quality.

Therefore,

Conclusion: Our good moods/feelings are the only things that can give our lives a real perceptual quality of good value, worth, joy, beauty, a heavenly experience, and happiness, our bad moods/feelings are the only things that can give our lives a perceptual quality of bad value, suffering, misery, agony, a hellish experience, and torment, while it is only experiencing neither our good or bad moods/feelings that can bring our lives a perceptual quality of no value, worth, joy, beauty, suffering, heavenly experience, hellish experience, happiness, love, or misery.

People with a brain defect, brain damage, or low feel-good neurotransmitters that take away their good moods/feelings due to either drug use, depression, and/or anhedonia are only having positive thoughts that their lives still have good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness to them without their good moods/feelings. But their quality of experience possesses no good quality to give any real perception of good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness to their lives. In other words, they would not be able to actually see the good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness in themselves, others around them, and in their lives.

You might as well consider the value and joy to be nothing more than terms (words/phrases) in a depressed/anhedonic person's life. Depressed/anhedonic people are only fooling and deluding themselves through these positive terms as well as through positive gestures, acts, and tones of voice in thinking their lives have real good value and worth to them. But, again, their actual experience possesses no good quality. They might have a little bit of good moods/feelings to some small degree, but that would only offer them a small quality of perceptual good value/worth perceived in their lives.

Additional delusional factors include conditioning, strength of character, and empathy towards other human beings which would certainly delude an individual into thinking that helping out others, making the best of life, etc. during miserable times would give real good value, worth, and joy to a person's life with no need for any good moods/feelings.
Last edited by Omniverse on Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:42 am, edited 20 times in total.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19819
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:49 pm

:hmm: Weren't you banned under a different handle recently?
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
OutOfBreath
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:38 pm
Custom Title: Persistent ponderer
Location: Norway

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby OutOfBreath » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:18 pm

Does sound familiar at least.

I find the argument presented fatally lacking in many respects, being a far too reductionist presentation based on vague ambivalent concepts.

1: "feels" is way too wide a concept that can be fudged into anything and is useless in a (presumably) philosophical argument.

2. Assumption that "mono-stimuli" will continue to "feel" good and bad indefinitely. That's ridiculous on the face of it as most people seek new stimuli consistently (risking a bad one in the process). Furthermore "good feeling" in the brain is tied to neurotransmitters that can get depleted. Happens to drug abusers all the time where what used to give an epic high in the end only yields an avoidance of "low". The brain continously habituates stimuli so that more of the same is eventually ignored. Fundamental psychological insight and knowledge against sych an argument as presented.

So i call BS on the hedonistic argument as presented. Good is not the same as "feeling good". Good can be an external value judgment which is as such objective given premises. Feeling good is a whim of brain chemicals and personally acquired patterns of responses to certain stimuli.

Also remember: even if stuffing your face with cream seems like heaven when you do, if you could do nothing else for eternity that would fit my definition of hell. So "good" would become "bad" eventually. You need bad and good to be able to appreciate good when you find it.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

Omniverse
Poster
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:09 am

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby Omniverse » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:30 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:Does sound familiar at least.

I find the argument presented fatally lacking in many respects, being a far too reductionist presentation based on vague ambivalent concepts.

1: "feels" is way too wide a concept that can be fudged into anything and is useless in a (presumably) philosophical argument.

2. Assumption that "mono-stimuli" will continue to "feel" good and bad indefinitely. That's ridiculous on the face of it as most people seek new stimuli consistently (risking a bad one in the process). Furthermore "good feeling" in the brain is tied to neurotransmitters that can get depleted. Happens to drug abusers all the time where what used to give an epic high in the end only yields an avoidance of "low". The brain continously habituates stimuli so that more of the same is eventually ignored. Fundamental psychological insight and knowledge against sych an argument as presented.

So i call BS on the hedonistic argument as presented. Good is not the same as "feeling good". Good can be an external value judgment which is as such objective given premises. Feeling good is a whim of brain chemicals and personally acquired patterns of responses to certain stimuli.

Also remember: even if stuffing your face with cream seems like heaven when you do, if you could do nothing else for eternity that would fit my definition of hell. So "good" would become "bad" eventually. You need bad and good to be able to appreciate good when you find it.

Peace
Dan


I respect your views. But let me add something in here that I think is important. When I am traumatized due to some horrible traumatic event in my life, I lose all my good moods/feelings and I have none whatsoever. My life possesses no real perceived quality of good value/worth even despite getting help and wanting to feel better. So, even me getting help did not give my life any real perceived quality of good value/worth. That is why I conclude that it is only how we feel that gives our lives a real perceived quality of good and bad value. I just don't agree with this non feeling version of value that society, friends, and family advocate. There is just no way I could ever live the entirety of my life and see any good value/worth living like this without my good moods/feelings.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19819
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:39 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:Does sound familiar at least.

He's been through it all multiple times under multiple handles. However...

...sorta kinda has a similar flavor to this critter Pyrrho ousted.
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8245
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby Poodle » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:36 pm

I can't see a way to disagree with the OP. Allow me to boil it down a little ...
When I feel good, I have good feelings. Check
When I feel bad I don't have good feelings. Check.
I'd rather have good feelings than bad feelings. Check
Therefore good feelings are good feelings and bad feelings are bad feelings. Check
OK - I think that sums up the position. Carry on.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11148
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:48 pm

There was a book out a few decades ago called "The War Lover" about a GI in Korea who liked to go out at night behind enemy lines and kill enemy soldiers by knife or garote. He loved it. Good Feeling to sneak up on an adversary and end his life with your own two hands.

Don't know what other "good things" you would apply to that individual's good feelings.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Omniverse
Poster
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:09 am

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby Omniverse » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:56 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:There was a book out a few decades ago called "The War Lover" about a GI in Korea who liked to go out at night behind enemy lines and kill enemy soldiers by knife or garote. He loved it. Good Feeling to sneak up on an adversary and end his life with your own two hands.

Don't know what other "good things" you would apply to that individual's good feelings.


There might be abstract values such as the idea that it is objectively wrong to harm an innocent person, but such values cannot actually be perceived without their respective moods/feelings. This means that a person who felt good in harming someone innocent cannot see that as a bad thing as long as he/she did not feel bad from that. Again, acknowledging such values means nothing. It is only through our moods/feelings that we can have a real perceptual quality of these values.

User avatar
Cadmusteeth
Regular Poster
Posts: 978
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:43 pm
Location: Colorado, USA

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby Cadmusteeth » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:25 pm

But what if it leads to a conclusion that's wrong?

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 19802
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:29 pm

Who {!#%@} on the forum?
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

Omniverse
Poster
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:09 am

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby Omniverse » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:31 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Who {!#%@} on the forum?


I don't know, but the stool looks a bit bold and black when you look further down.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26788
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:01 am

Omniverse AKA Matt MSV7 wrote:But let me add something in here that I think is important.

You are all having your legs pulled. Matt MSV7 has been loading up his "sad" music compositions and then trolling forums to demand members talk about them. If you don't pay attention to him he threatens to kill himself


This new Youtube "composition" is three weeks old. He has been on this trolling theme for about three months.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpSXhKS01iQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng5DyeMcG8o

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26788
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:05 am

Omniverse AKA Matt MSV7 wrote:There might be abstract values such as the idea that it is objectively wrong to harm an innocent person, but such values cannot actually be perceived without their respective moods/feelings. This means that a person who felt good in harming someone innocent cannot see that as a bad thing as long as he/she did not feel bad from that. Again, acknowledging such values means nothing. It is only through our moods/feelings that we can have a real perceptual quality of these values.


Matt MSV7 is copying and pasting this same paragraph on numerous forums. Here he is doing it on the PsychCentral Mental Illness forum yesterday.
https://forums.psychcentral.com/5752884-post1.html

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7649
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby TJrandom » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:16 am

Boy, that was a fast scroll. Just hold finger on the down scroll key and all sorts of good feelings flow forth. The faster the better.... :roll:

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 19802
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:20 am

TJrandom wrote:Boy, that was a fast scroll. Just hold finger on the down scroll key and all sorts of good feelings flow forth. The faster the better.... :roll:

Image
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3319
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: His Beatitude

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby ElectricMonk » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:01 pm

Good/bad is a question of hindsight, not fuzzy feelings at the time.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11148
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:06 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Good/bad is a question of hindsight, not fuzzy feelings at the time.

Not when you do it the second time. Its kinda like perversion.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 19802
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:51 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Good/bad is a question of hindsight, not fuzzy feelings at the time.

Wouldn't want such to deter me from feelings fuzzies. :twisted:
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
True Skeptic
Posts: 10536
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby OlegTheBatty » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:06 pm

Poodle wrote:I can't see a way to disagree with the OP. Allow me to boil it down a little ...
When I feel good, I have good feelings. Check
When I feel bad I don't have good feelings. Check.
I'd rather have good feelings than bad feelings. Check
Therefore good feelings are good feelings and bad feelings are bad feelings. Check
OK - I think that sums up the position. Carry on.


It reminds me of just about the only thing I remember about the War of the Roses:

The grand old Duke of York,
He had ten thousand men.
He marched them up
To the top of the hill
And he marched them down again.

And when they were up
They were up.
And when they were down
they were down.
And when they were only
Half way up,
They were neither
Up nor down.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19819
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:38 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:Good/bad is a question of hindsight, not fuzzy feelings at the time.

Wouldn't want such to deter me from feelings fuzzies. :twisted:

That sounds slippery.
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 19802
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:00 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:Good/bad is a question of hindsight, not fuzzy feelings at the time.

Wouldn't want such to deter me from feelings fuzzies. :twisted:

That sounds slippery.

Mine was a Deadpool reference, first encounter with Vanessa.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19819
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:07 pm

I knew I should have stuck with my first choice. :glare:
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 19802
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:37 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:I knew I should have stuck with my first choice. :glare:

They would look good on you. :cool:
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19819
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:08 pm

.

Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 29477
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby Gord » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:12 pm

TJrandom wrote:Just hold finger on the down scroll key....

There's a scroll key?!?! :shock:

/me searches his keyboard frantically
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

Omniverse
Poster
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:09 am

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby Omniverse » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:16 pm

I have now made my logical argument much more brief and I have made it better as well.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26788
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:01 am

Omniverse wrote:I have now made my logical argument much more brief and I have made it better as well.


Good. Take it somewhere else and tell them.

Here is Matt MSV7 AKA Omniverse pretending to be a tree. (It really is him)
:D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KrT8TNVj0s

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8245
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: My Hedonistic Logical Argument

Postby Poodle » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:47 am

Omniverse wrote:I have now made my logical argument much more brief and I have made it better as well.

Fixed that for you.


Return to “Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest