Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

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Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:07 am

I've heard Dawkins talk about this but not at the detail of making up a scale. I think the presentation is a bit wrong: the #7 Position of "Are you sure God does not exist" is not the opposite of #1 "Are you convinced God DOES exist."

Its a matter of definitions: What god? I don't think its a stretch at all to be a 7 or 8 on the scale of "knowing" that any god "as described" simply CANNOT EXIST. Its the Epicurian Logic Trap. Those that are a 1 on such scales...don't focus or recognize or accept any such logical trap. Its a mystery...or just keep believing. So.... the stupid part of the scale is accurate... but not the smart end.

Easy to side step it all and go for anti-Theism: whatever god might exist: Leave me alone.... and no.... I see no need to worship you. Gonna throw me into Hell for eternity for that? Well.... thats power. Not God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMIe7eInGBU&feature=youtu.be
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby Nobrot » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:00 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I've heard Dawkins talk about this but not at the detail of making up a scale.


Try this.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins-ebook/dp/B0031RSA24

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I think the presentation is a bit wrong: the #7 Position of "Are you sure God does not exist" is not the opposite of #1 "Are you convinced God DOES exist."


Please elaborate.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Its a matter of definitions: What god?


Try that link I posted.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I don't think its a stretch at all to be a 7 or 8 on the scale of "knowing"...


An 8 on a scale of 1-7?

[Some snippage]

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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:55 am

nobrot: I've read many pro-god arguments or why atheism isn't true and non of them were convincing. Not even worth the look. We 7's are as convinced as you 1's. BUT--what telling argument/position/understanding/value is presented at that link is it that you find convincing? ......... Warm me up.

Elaborate?====I did. Just look. Don't tell me you don't know all about the Epicurean Dilemma/paradox/logic trap?

Love to look at the link. Just want you to do a minimum of work first...........as I did........ by ALREADY elaborating.

Yes...8 on the scale (Some humor)
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby Poodle » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:51 pm

One problem with all fairy tales and their ilk is that anyone can simply invent one and then insist that the default skeptic position is "I cannot dismiss this as I have no evidence against it". There's a problem with that.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby Nobrot » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:53 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:nobrot: I've read many pro-god arguments or why atheism isn't true and non of them were convincing. Not even worth the look.


Your opening post strongly indicates you haven't read the book. I posted a link to Amazon where you can buy the thing. Failing that; here's the text version. I'm sure it reads the same as it sounds.

1. Strong theist. 100 percent probability of God. In the words of C. G. Jung; 'I do not believe; I know."
2. De facto theist. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. "I don't know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."
3. Leaning towards theism. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. "I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God."
4. Completely impartial. Exactly 50 per cent. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."
5. Leaning towards atheism. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical."
6. De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."
7. Strong atheist. "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung knows there is one."

We 7's are as convinced as you 1's. BUT--what telling argument/position/understanding/value is presented at that link is it that you find convincing? ......... Warm me up.


The message and content of Dawkins proposal seem self evident to me, it's a conversation starter, you know, breaks the ice at parties. As a conversation starter it appears to be remarkably successful given the number of Google hits. Are you sure you aren't over analysing this.

Elaborate?====I did. Just look. Don't tell me you don't know all about the Epicurean Dilemma/paradox/logic trap?


Yes I'm familiar with the Epicurean problem of evil but I fail to see how it's relevant to Dawkins thesis.

Love to look at the link. Just want you to do a minimum of work first...........as I did........ by ALREADY elaborating.


A minimum of work would be to read the link, no need to open the thing.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby Gord » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:06 pm

I'm not anywhere on that 1-7 scale. #6 is sort of close, but I don't live my life on the assumption there are no gods, I simply live my life without assuming anything either way. And that's what I think an atheist is.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby ElectricMonk » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:35 pm

Where am I on the scale if I consider myself to me a minor deity?
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby Gord » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:51 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Where am I on the scale if I consider myself to me a minor deity?

Trump and I agree, you're about a 1.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:44 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Where am I on the scale if I consider myself to me a minor deity?

but do you believe in yourself? A lot of people don't. Don't know about gods.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:46 pm

Nobrot wrote:Yes I'm familiar with the Epicurean problem of evil but I fail to see how it's relevant to Dawkins thesis.

It goes to whether or not the disbelief in God can be absolute and reasonable. It depends NOT on how you define belief or certainty or scientific process but rather on how you define god.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:43 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Where am I on the scale if I consider myself to me a minor deity?

Gets me thinking about "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." //// What the current BS on this one? I read long ago it was the basis for angels and saints and even the Trifecta...that Yaweh in fact AS RECOGNIZED IN THE BIBLE is just one of many gods, he just won the race to the top of the pyramid.

Still BS though.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby Nobrot » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:00 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Nobrot wrote:Yes I'm familiar with the Epicurean problem of evil but I fail to see how it's relevant to Dawkins thesis.

It goes to whether or not the disbelief in God can be absolute and reasonable. It depends NOT on how you define belief or certainty or scientific process but rather on how you define god.

What have you been reading?

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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:16 am

Last thing I read was the warning on a tube of eczema.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:07 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Where am I on the scale if I consider myself to me a minor deity?


What will you be when you reach the age of majority?

I'm planning to be a Demon Drinker.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:24 pm

Either extreme is insane. Well, irrational anyway. There is no certainty, so belief in certainty is ridiculous.

Most skeptics would be a 5 or 6. That is a fully rational position, accepting a little doubt, but also noting that there is no credible evidence for deity.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby Nobrot » Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:46 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Either extreme is insane. Well, irrational anyway. There is no certainty, so belief in certainty is ridiculous.

Most skeptics would be a 5 or 6. That is a fully rational position, accepting a little doubt, but also noting that there is no credible evidence for deity.

What's your stance regarding Spiny Norman, the giant purple hedgehog who created the universe about a fortnight ago? Is it a 5 or 6? If your answer is wtf are you talking about then why not apply wtfayta to the equally nonsense concept of gods?
A bit since in another forum someone said 'I'm not religious enough to be an atheist'. I was quite taken with that. That's why I'm an ignostic.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a goofball

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:21 am

Thought so. :-P
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a your spiny Norman is rather low probability One

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:45 am

To Nobrot

Your Spiny Norman is very, very, very low probability.

I was talking of deities in general. Any deity. I regard them to be of low probability also, but not impossible. To categorically state that all deities do NOT exist, is an extremist view. Probably a correct view, but still extremist. It is more rational to accept a smaller likelihood that something, somewhere, might exist. Maybe. Thus a 5 or 6.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:59 am

Any of you spineless equivocators care to defend how a god "as usually described" can survive the ridicule of the Epicurean Paradox? How is failing that challenge not a proof that such a god cannot exist with an absolute surety? Other gods that don't make all three claims can certainly exist.

..........I think at some point you'all just "give up" and take what you think is a safe compromise. But, its not legit.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:46 am

I avoid the paradox by imagining myself as a thoroughly useless deity:

most prayers to me end up in my Spam folder, and whenever I try to help I make things worse.

I assume that the Abrahamic God long ago encountered the same issue and decided it was better if he just sat back and pretended his creation wasn't any of his business any more.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby Poodle » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:00 am

The Epicurean Paradox doesn't appear to take account of a "couldn't give a {!#%@} either way" deity, other than trying to constrict it with human concepts of rectitude.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:28 am

You guys didn't even try.

Very wise.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:30 pm

There is a simple escape from the Epicurean Paradox: time.

What if, by intervening (or not intervening ) at the exact right time, God creates the best possible outcome for the largest number of people some time in the future?
What if he makes up for he suffering he is causing now by rewarding the victims of his divine plan with an eternity of bliss?
Yes, he could make everyone infinitely happy instantly, but then humans would probably stop bothering to do anything. His creation can attain the greatest happiness for all, but only by going through a process of stress - hence suffering exists.

This is the same as all "End justifies the Means" argument, and from an Utilitarian perspective it is flawless. And it comes with the band-aid of compensation in Paradise as an apology for the inconvenience.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:15 pm

wut?

Makes as much sense as saying: "applesauce."

"Yes, he could make everyone infinitely happy instantly,..."===>but he doesn't, so.... he's a dick, thereby failing the Epicurean Test which requires God to be dickless.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:32 pm

Well OK, but all I know is ...

MY atheism is better than YOUR atheism!

neener.gif
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:50 pm

Nope..... un huh...... naaa..... no way...... can't be: BECAUSE: I am an anti-theist. THAT is a whole nother layer of shellac.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:02 pm

@bobbo

If everyone's happiness today comes at the cost of the happiness of future generations, handing out happy pills today would be suboptimal.

Of course, what makes no sense whatsoever is the concept of hell and purgatory for any God claiming to be benign.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:13 pm

EM---you are wading in the pool of the Epicurian Paradox or "trap." Thats just one of the various combo's that spell: applesauce.

Anti-Theist: Lets assume god does exist however that might be. So what? I'm no god, but I claim the right to make my own way in this universe. If god smites me as a result, well, thats HIS doing as the result of POWER. Neanderthals in High School did the same thing.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:15 pm

And?
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:32 pm

and................ there you have it.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:07 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Well OK, but all I know is ...

MY atheism is better than YOUR atheism!

neener.gif



IS NOT! IS NOT! :slapfight:
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:48 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:Well OK, but all I know is ...

MY atheism is better than YOUR atheism!

neener.gif



IS NOT! IS NOT! :slapfight:


Only God can be the judge of that.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:39 am

I think this whole exercise is a little bit silly.

The only reason to have different levels, moving from religious to atheist, is if there were a need to have a religious theory to explain paranormal phenomenon. However, there are no paranormal phenomenon that need an explanation.

It is like wondering if clicking your fingers keeps away polar bears.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:18 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:I think this whole exercise is a little bit silly.

The only reason to have different levels, moving from religious to atheist, is if there were a need to have a religious theory to explain paranormal phenomenon. However, there are no paranormal phenomenon that need an explanation.

It is like wondering if clicking your fingers keeps away polar bears.

Religion tries to explain "everything" as in: Goddidit. S0....not just for paranormal. I think fudging a graph is really just to highlight the notion that at the Scientific end we are supposed to stop short of religious certainty. Its why the Darwinists never went to war with the Lamarks. They stopped short.

Lots of way to graphically represent ideas. Pie charts. Venn Diagrams. The religion like cartoons, scientists data tables.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby digress » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:55 am

atheism now has a richard dawkins scale. how richard dawkins are u
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:40 am

digress wrote:atheism now has a richard dawkins scale. how richard dawkins are u

Yes, it is silly. Why do I need a scale to measure how much I believe in something that doesn't exist?

Frankly, a general IQ test would be a better indicator of whether a person believes idiotic things or not.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:06 am

Matthew

I hate to disillusion you, but IQ is not an appropriate test. Members of the Mensa Club worldwide have been widely reported to support weird beliefs, including astrology, Little Grey Men from outer space, assorted mythical monsters, and other superstitions.

You need to come up with an effective rationality test, because general intelligence does not stop people being idiots.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:39 am

Lance: I gotta think you are wrong. Just a rough correlation: the more intelligent you are, the less likely you are to believe in fantastical things. Not as you suggest a 100% bar. They may slop over too far in the application of what they know, such as supply side economics and so forth....but..."on average" being Smart has to mean something more than being the same as Not Smart?

Its just words.
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OlegTheBatty
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:48 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Lance: I gotta think you are wrong. Just a rough correlation: the more intelligent you are, the less likely you are to believe in fantastical things. Not as you suggest a 100% bar. They may slop over too far in the application of what they know, such as supply side economics and so forth....but..."on average" being Smart has to mean something more than being the same as Not Smart?

Its just words.


Flawed premises plus flawless reasoning gets you flawed conclusions. It doesn't matter how smart you are if you don't fact-check your premises.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: Richard Dawkins Atheism Scale==I'm a Plus One

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:02 pm

Bobbo

That was not simply my opinion. A detailed survey of Canadian Mensa Club members showed no fewer than 40% had some weird belief.


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