"Does god exist" debate

God, the FSM, and everything else.
jojo
New Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby jojo » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:38 am

@TheUltimateBlitz1: If it expanded from another universe or something else, then that is not nothing. If there is another step in the puzzle then that isn't and answer to the origin of the universe is it? You eventually have to deal with an uncaused cause of the universe. My opinion is that nothing in creation can initiate creation. Otherwise, you run into the problem with how that began to exist. However, if it is outside of creation then that problem is solved. It doesn't have an origin, because it is transcendent. There has to be something outside of creation to initiate it or you are left with things just popping out of being with not anything causing it (aka nothing). The only conceivable thing that could cause that is a changeless, timeless, spaceless, immaterial, intelligent mind. In other words, God. I responded to more than one person. I did not see a way to reply to only you on here.

User avatar
Daedalus
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5392
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:38 pm
Custom Title: Ave Atque Vale

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Daedalus » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:40 am

jojo wrote:@ Daedelus: It is far more logical that a transcendent being created the universe, than that the universe just popped into being. Now you know that science has shown that the universe is not infinite. Why would you claim that it is infinite against what most science are now claiming?


Image
"Propaganda is a monologue which seeks not a response, but an echo." (W.H. Auden)
"Given time and plenty of paper, philosophers can prove anything." (Robert Heinlein)
"The map is not the territory." (Alfred Korzybski)
“You’re in the desert, you see a tortoise lying on its back, struggling, and you’re not helping — why is that?" (Bladerunner)

jojo
New Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby jojo » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:41 am

@TheUltimateBlitz1: If it expanded from another universe or something else, then that is not nothing. If there is another step in the puzzle then that isn't and answer to the origin of the universe is it? You eventually have to deal with an uncaused cause of the universe. My opinion is that nothing in creation can initiate creation. Otherwise, you run into the problem with how that began to exist. However, if it is outside of creation then that problem is solved. It doesn't have an origin, because it is transcendent. There has to be something outside of creation to initiate it or you are left with things just popping out of being with not anything causing it (aka nothing). The only conceivable thing that could cause that is a changeless, timeless, spaceless, immaterial, intelligent mind. In other words, God. I responded to more than one person. I did not see a way to reply to only you on here.

User avatar
Kaepora Gaebora
Regular Poster
Posts: 626
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:41 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Kaepora Gaebora » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:42 am

jojo wrote:@TheUltimateBlitz1: If it expanded from another universe or something else, then that is not nothing. If there is another step in the puzzle then that isn't and answer to the origin of the universe is it? You eventually have to deal with an uncaused cause of the universe. My opinion is that nothing in creation can initiate creation. Otherwise, you run into the problem with how that began to exist. However, if it is outside of creation then that problem is solved. It doesn't have an origin, because it is transcendent. There has to be something outside of creation to initiate it or you are left with things just popping out of being with not anything causing it (aka nothing). The only conceivable thing that could cause that is a changeless, timeless, spaceless, immaterial, intelligent mind. In other words, God. I responded to more than one person. I did not see a way to reply to only you on here.


You can't explain where everything comes from, therefore, you know what created everything. Logic -- you have none.

jojo
New Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby jojo » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:00 am

@Matthew Ellard: No disrespect intended, but most of those comments were more ramblings than something I am guessing that you wanted me to answer. Here goes:

"The atheist doesn't believe in gods. The scientist offers theories about the nature of the singularity from which the big bang came from."

I'm saying that you have no idea of an initial cause of the universe (or multi-verse if you like). What makes you so sure it's not God?

jojo
New Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby jojo » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:00 am

The Batman and middle eastern God only states that you don't believe in God. We knew that.

I don't think numbers are transcendent either. I just stated it in case someone believed it and if someone wanted to claim that they were, fine. I only think that God is transcendent.

As far as, an Egyptian or Hindu God goes. That is a totally irrelevant from the conversation. That is asking who God is, instead of whether he exists.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19801
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:04 am

ipse, is that you coming down the string?
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

jojo
New Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby jojo » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:06 am

@ Kaepora Gaebora: Show me how God is less logical than the universe popping into being out of nothing (not anything, no properties at all). That is the hand that you are dealt as an atheist. I would like to see an explanation of how God is less logical than that.

User avatar
Daedalus
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5392
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:38 pm
Custom Title: Ave Atque Vale

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Daedalus » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:07 am

scrmbldggs wrote:ipse, is that you coming down the string?


It's like a Christian Ipse! Oh joy!

Image
"Propaganda is a monologue which seeks not a response, but an echo." (W.H. Auden)
"Given time and plenty of paper, philosophers can prove anything." (Robert Heinlein)
"The map is not the territory." (Alfred Korzybski)
“You’re in the desert, you see a tortoise lying on its back, struggling, and you’re not helping — why is that?" (Bladerunner)

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10238
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:14 am

The key point, Jojo, is that we do not know. Religious non believers are honest about saying they do not know. Religious people also do not know. They do not have a clue beyond anything non religious people have. Yet religious people are arrogant enough to claim an answer, when they are as ignorant as everyone else.

In mathematics, it is possible for something to come from nothing.
0=1-1+2-2+3-3 ...........
In this equation, both sides equal nothing. On the left is the symbol for nothing. On the right is one hell of a lot of something, but it also equals nothing.

How do you know that is not the state of the universe? Or universes? Perhaps our universe is matched by an anti-universe, which is the negative sign to our positive. The two universes cancel each other out, but as long as they stay out of contact, each has its own existence.

Now I do not know that is true. I rather suspect it is not. But it is just as likely to be true as "goddidit". I admit my ignorance. Have you the grace to admit yours?

User avatar
Kaepora Gaebora
Regular Poster
Posts: 626
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:41 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Kaepora Gaebora » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:40 am

jojo wrote:@ Kaepora Gaebora: Show me how God is less logical than the universe popping into being out of nothing (not anything, no properties at all). That is the hand that you are dealt as an atheist. I would like to see an explanation of how God is less logical than that.


Because nobody here claimed that something came from nothing? It's likely that the 'Big Bang' was preceded by a something else, maybe even a Universe that had collapsed onto itself.

The problem is we don't know, and you are inserting something that you believe in with no proof into those gaps. You can always claim there is some sort of supernatural, omniscient being, but you have no scientific proof of it that it exists.

What if reality were a computer simulation?
Last edited by Kaepora Gaebora on Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Kaepora Gaebora
Regular Poster
Posts: 626
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:41 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Kaepora Gaebora » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:43 am

Additionally, you haven't answered a question that was asked before: if God exists, where did God come from?

jojo
New Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby jojo » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:47 am

@Lance: I am stating that the most logical cause for the universe/universes/anti-universe is something that initiated it, that is not part of creation. No matter how many versions there are, the atheist still avoids how the universe or universes were initiated. Whether you are dealing with matter or anti-matter, the problem still exists that something came to being out of nothing. The theists says that the cause is outside of creation. The fact of the matter is that nothing that is part of creation can initiate creation, do you agree? If not, can you give an example of something? Otherwise, it wouldt be part of creation. I do not believe that it is arrogance, to claim an answer. How is that arrogance? You have to know that it is illogical to say that the universe just popped into being from itself. That's worse than magic. At least in magic you have a magician and a hat. A transcendent, immaterial, timeless, changeless, spaceless intelligent mind seems more plausible to me. Doesn't it seem that way to you?

I enjoyed it. I have to work tomorrow. If you wish, please reply. I would like to read them.

jojo
New Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby jojo » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:01 am

Last one.
@Kaepora: No matter how many versions there are, the atheist still avoids how the universe or universes were initiated. Whether you are dealing with matter or anti-matter, the problem still exists that something came to being out of nothing. The theists says that the cause is outside of creation. The fact of the matter is that nothing that is part of creation can initiate creation, do you agree? If not, can you give an example of something? Otherwise, it wouldn't be part of creation.

God did not have a beginning. If he is transcendent, why does he have to have a beginning? We are talking about creations origin. If he is transcendent and timeless, he created time. How could something timeless and spaceless have a beginning? I don't think it can. Do you?

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19801
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:19 am

jojo wrote:God did not have a beginning. If he is transcendent, why does he have to have a beginning? We are talking about creations origin. If he is transcendent and timeless, he created time. How could something timeless and spaceless have a beginning? I don't think it can. Do you?

How could something timeless and space less even conceive of the limitations of space and time?
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
Kaepora Gaebora
Regular Poster
Posts: 626
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:41 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Kaepora Gaebora » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:21 am

jojo wrote:Last one.
@Kaepora: No matter how many versions there are, the atheist still avoids how the universe or universes were initiated.


Because we don't know and that is OK. Reality could have existed ad infinitum for all we know.

jojo wrote:Whether you are dealing with matter or anti-matter, the problem still exists that something came to being out of nothing. The theists says that the cause is outside of creation. The fact of the matter is that nothing that is part of creation can initiate creation, do you agree? If not, can you give an example of something? Otherwise, it wouldn't be part of creation.


Again, nobody is claiming that. We simply don't know, and you are filling in the gaps with your beliefs without any proof to back it up.

jojo wrote:God did not have a beginning. If he is transcendent, why does he have to have a beginning? We are talking about creations origin. If he is transcendent and timeless, he created time. How could something timeless and spaceless have a beginning? I don't think it can. Do you?


Then if he is transcendent and timeless, how would he create our reality if cause and effect means nothing to a timeless god, as he would not have temporal existence to cause reality to exist. Cause and effect require time, and if God is timeless, that contradicts cause and effect for this God.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26775
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:40 am

jojo wrote:@Matthew Ellard: No disrespect intended, but most of those comments were more ramblings than something I am guessing that you wanted me to answer.
That's why there were question marks at the end of each question. I'm glad you eventually worked it out.


jojo wrote:I'm saying that you have no idea of an initial cause of the universe (or multi-verse if you like). What makes you so sure it's not God?
I actually linked you to one of the scientific theories concerning Brane theory and the singularity....which you totally ignored. That was very religious of you.


jojo wrote:As far as, an Egyptian or Hindu God goes. That is a totally irrelevant from the conversation. That is asking who God is, instead of whether he exists.
No it's not. "Ra", "Lord Brahma" and "Yahweh" are all fictional creatures from literature created by man. "Yahweh", your christian god, is the most recent invention. You can't explain why you think "Yahweh" is the real god and "Lord Brahma" is not. You are pulling your own leg.

Please set out in your own words why your "Yahweh" is real and the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" invented by skeptics, is not the real "God"?

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26775
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:00 am

jojo wrote:The atheist cannot explain how the Universe was created from nothing. .
We have scientific theories that are in development. You have a mythical "god" from bronze age, middle eastern, religious literature, that lifted whole stories from an earlier Babylonian fictional religion.

A Brief Introduction to the Ekpyrotic Universe / Paul J. Steinhardt / Princeton University
"The Ekpyrotic Model of the Universe proposes that our current universe arose from a collision of two three-dimensional worlds (branes) in a space with an extra (fourth) spatial dimension"
http://wwwphy.princeton.edu/~steinh/npr/

So you have your "God", the Devil, archangels like Michael and Gabriel, cherubs etc....Did all these fictional characters cause the big bang? Where in the Bible does it say any of these fictional characters started the big bang?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10238
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:06 am

To Jojo

Something popping out of nothing.

Not only is it possible, but it is happening all the time. It is sometimes called vaccuum energy, virtual particles, or the like. It is the cause of Hawking radiation, and is demonstrable in the laboratory. In 'empty' space, both matter and antimatter appear from nothing. The matter and antimatter particles then annihilate each other. But they appear. And out of nothing.

I make no claims as to how the universe began. However, there is absolutely no reason it could not have appeared out of nothing spontaneously. Many physicists think that the Big Bang was just that - a spontaneous appearance. The idea that a creator is needed is not supported by either theory, or the observed facts.

The truth is that no one actually knows. Any physicist who tried to say he/she had THE answer would be laughed out of the profession. Likewise, any religico who makes that same claim deserves the same derision.

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8242
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Poodle » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:20 am

jojo wrote:@ Daedelus: It is far more logical that a transcendent being created the universe, than that the universe just popped into being. Now you know that science has shown that the universe is not infinite. Why would you claim that it is infinite against what most science are now claiming?


I have an early night, and look what I miss out on!!!!

Jojo, HOW is it more logical that a transcendent being created the universe rather than it popping into being as a result of a random quantum fluctuation? The only response (not necessarily from you) that I've ever seen to this is "Well, it just is". We could take it even further - I could ask you HOW the concept of a transcendent being satisfies any form of logic, but I won't. Not yet, anyway.

User avatar
kennyc
Has No Life
Posts: 12193
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:21 am
Custom Title: The Dank Side of the Moon
Location: Denver, CO

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby kennyc » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:24 am

jojo wrote:Transcendent means outside of creation. It doesn't make sense for something that initiated all of creation to be included in creation. Why is the fact that God had no beginning, make you conclude that there is no God? Why does he have to be created if he is not part of creation?



That's just your {!#%@} talkin'

Prove it!
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Photo Gallery - Writing&Poetry - The Bleeding Edge
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

User avatar
kennyc
Has No Life
Posts: 12193
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:21 am
Custom Title: The Dank Side of the Moon
Location: Denver, CO

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby kennyc » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:25 am

Daedalus wrote:
jojo wrote:If the theist and atheist are in the same boat, then I would consider the only one that is offering an answer. If you don't know the answer, then how to you know that God is not the right answer?


You don't know, but not knowing doesn't give you license to make things up because you happen to like it. You don't know a cure for cancer, but that doesn't mean you're going to whip one up with ingredients from your cupboard either. It's OK not to have answers... it's not OK to make them up.

jojo wrote:Transcendent means outside of creation. It doesn't make sense for something that initiated all of creation to be included in creation. Why is the fact that God had no beginning, make you conclude that there is no God? Why does he have to be created if he is not part of creation?


If you can make an exception for a god, why not for a universe? Just say the conditions for a universe have always existed... the end.

If you want to claim that a being beyond creation is a special exception, then you've already given up any attempt at a logical argument and have begged the question.



/thread
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Photo Gallery - Writing&Poetry - The Bleeding Edge
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

User avatar
kennyc
Has No Life
Posts: 12193
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:21 am
Custom Title: The Dank Side of the Moon
Location: Denver, CO

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby kennyc » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:29 am

jojo wrote:@ Daedelus: It is far more logical that a transcendent being created the universe, than that the universe just popped into being. Now you know that science has shown that the universe is not infinite. Why would you claim that it is infinite against what most science are now claiming?



No it's not. The opposite is true. One step simpler. You just don't, won't or can't comprehend it.
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Photo Gallery - Writing&Poetry - The Bleeding Edge
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

User avatar
kennyc
Has No Life
Posts: 12193
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:21 am
Custom Title: The Dank Side of the Moon
Location: Denver, CO

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby kennyc » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:32 am

scrmbldggs wrote:ipse, is that you coming down the string?



Not quite...
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Photo Gallery - Writing&Poetry - The Bleeding Edge
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

User avatar
kennyc
Has No Life
Posts: 12193
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:21 am
Custom Title: The Dank Side of the Moon
Location: Denver, CO

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby kennyc » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:34 am

jojo wrote:Last one.
@Kaepora: No matter how many versions there are, the atheist still avoids how the universe or universes were initiated. Whether you are dealing with matter or anti-matter, the problem still exists that something came to being out of nothing. The theists says that the cause is outside of creation. The fact of the matter is that nothing that is part of creation can initiate creation, do you agree? If not, can you give an example of something? Otherwise, it wouldn't be part of creation.

God did not have a beginning. If he is transcendent, why does he have to have a beginning? We are talking about creations origin. If he is transcendent and timeless, he created time. How could something timeless and spaceless have a beginning? I don't think it can. Do you?


Prove it!
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Photo Gallery - Writing&Poetry - The Bleeding Edge
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

User avatar
kennyc
Has No Life
Posts: 12193
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:21 am
Custom Title: The Dank Side of the Moon
Location: Denver, CO

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby kennyc » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:37 am

Poodle wrote:
jojo wrote:@ Daedelus: It is far more logical that a transcendent being created the universe, than that the universe just popped into being. Now you know that science has shown that the universe is not infinite. Why would you claim that it is infinite against what most science are now claiming?


I have an early night, and look what I miss out on!!!!

Jojo, HOW is it more logical that a transcendent being created the universe rather than it popping into being as a result of a random quantum fluctuation? The only response (not necessarily from you) that I've ever seen to this is "Well, it just is". We could take it even further - I could ask you HOW the concept of a transcendent being satisfies any form of logic, but I won't. Not yet, anyway.



Yep, we got a live one. :D
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Photo Gallery - Writing&Poetry - The Bleeding Edge
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

jojo
New Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby jojo » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:40 am

@ scrmbldggs: Because that intelligent powerful mind created time and space. Why could such a being not navigate time and space?

@Kaepora: Why not go with a more probable explanation, such as God? Speculative theories, such as Pre-Big Bang Inflationary scenarios, have been crafted to try to avoid an absolute beginning. But none of these theories has succeeded in restoring an eternal past. At most they just push the beginning back a step. But then the question inevitable arises: Why did the universe come into being? What brought the vacuum state into existence? I am not filling God in the gaps. I think that that there is good reason to believe that God created the universe. I don't see how that a timeless God contradicts cause and effect. If time began at the initiation of creation, that would be when time started. The same time as the initial cause.

jojo
New Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby jojo » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:53 am

@Matthew Ellard: The Brane Theory hypothesis that you linked me to, is just another multiverse explanation. If that theory works, where did the three dimensional universes come from? You still have a problem with origins. Your explanation of the history of God's commits the genetic fallacy. Your theory of the origin of the idea of gods does not disprove the probability of God. I'm am arguing for theism. That is the topic isn't it? Does God Exist?

@Lance Kennedy: Why not go with a more probable explanation, such as God? Speculative theories, such as Pre-Big Bang Inflationary scenarios, have been crafted to try to avoid an absolute beginning. But none of these theories has succeeded in restoring an eternal past. At most they just push the beginning back a step. But then the question inevitable arises: Why did the universe come into being? What brought the vacuum state into existence? I am not filling God in the gaps. I think that that there is good reason to believe that God created the universe. If you don't know, Why is the probability of God creating the universe not an option for you? At the very least you should consider it along with the other scenarios out there.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19801
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:55 am

So you're saying your god is cruel, and retarded?
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10238
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:05 am

To jojo

The religious view that God somehow happens to exist and create universes is no smarter than the idea that the universe just happens to exist.

The truth is that no one knows. I make no claims for special knowledge. We know the Big Bang happened, because the evidence is irrefutable. However, we do not know how or why it happened. I accept this lack of knowledge.

But to say God happened is no better, because you do not know how or why this deity just happened to happen. The universe spontaneously coming into being is just as likely as a deity spontaneously coming into being. But before I try to pontificate on this, I will wait for better scientific data. That is the course of wisdom.

jojo
New Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby jojo » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:27 am

@ Poodle: @Kenny C: Here is what I understand you saying so far. You are not sure what started the universe, but you are certain that it is not God. I would ask you what makes you so certain? How are you so sure God does not exist? If you can't prove it, then I would move from the atheist camp to the agnostic camp if I were you. At least they offer the possibility of God.

You want proof from me that he exists. I think it is My burden is to show that believing that God exists is more probable. To say that there’s evidence for some hypothesis is just to say that that hypothesis is more probable given certain facts than it would have been without them.

jojo
New Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby jojo » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:28 am

Here is what I consider evidence, and my argument for theism in a few posts:

1. The origin of the Universe (something coming into existence from nothing)

2.The complex order of the universe (The idea that a finely tuned universe that can ultimately support life occurred by chance is astronomically improbable. It is far more probable to believe that the universe was designed, than to believe that it occurred by chance.

3.The existence of objective moral values. Some acts like rape, torturing an innocent child for fun, etc... are objectively wrong. Before, someone comes and says that moral values are a societal norm. Then, consider the holocaust. The Nazi regime murdered millions of Jews. According to their view, that society believed that they were doing something morally acceptable. However, looking back it is obviously considered wrong.

I'll wait for you to say which you want to discuss, if any.

User avatar
Daedalus
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5392
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:38 pm
Custom Title: Ave Atque Vale

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Daedalus » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:47 am

That's not evidence, that's an argument. You might want to invest in a dictionary.
"Propaganda is a monologue which seeks not a response, but an echo." (W.H. Auden)
"Given time and plenty of paper, philosophers can prove anything." (Robert Heinlein)
"The map is not the territory." (Alfred Korzybski)
“You’re in the desert, you see a tortoise lying on its back, struggling, and you’re not helping — why is that?" (Bladerunner)

jojo
New Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby jojo » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:57 am

evidence- ground for belief or disbelief; data on which to base proof or to establish truth or falsehood.

Seems like evidence to me. You can judge if it is good or not and why.

User avatar
Kaepora Gaebora
Regular Poster
Posts: 626
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:41 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Kaepora Gaebora » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:58 am

jojo wrote:evidence- ground for belief or disbelief; data on which to base proof or to establish truth or falsehood.

Seems like evidence to me. You can judge if it is good or not and why.


You presented several claims, not evidence.

User avatar
Daedalus
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5392
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:38 pm
Custom Title: Ave Atque Vale

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Daedalus » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:00 am

jojo wrote:evidence- ground for belief or disbelief; data on which to base proof or to establish truth or falsehood.

Seems like evidence to me. You can judge if it is good or not and why.


Except that it's not evidence.

Evidence is objective data, facts, information... to help support a claim.

What you're doing (as Kaepora says) is just make more claims in lieu of evidence. It's the standard religious thing of course... "God exists, which I can prove because the bible says he exists."

:roll:
"Propaganda is a monologue which seeks not a response, but an echo." (W.H. Auden)
"Given time and plenty of paper, philosophers can prove anything." (Robert Heinlein)
"The map is not the territory." (Alfred Korzybski)
“You’re in the desert, you see a tortoise lying on its back, struggling, and you’re not helping — why is that?" (Bladerunner)

User avatar
Kaepora Gaebora
Regular Poster
Posts: 626
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:41 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Kaepora Gaebora » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:17 am

jojo wrote:@Kaepora: Why not go with a more probable explanation, such as God? Speculative theories, such as Pre-Big Bang Inflationary scenarios, have been crafted to try to avoid an absolute beginning. But none of these theories has succeeded in restoring an eternal past. At most they just push the beginning back a step. But then the question inevitable arises: Why did the universe come into being? What brought the vacuum state into existence?

How is God more probable of an explanation? What evidence says God is more probable?

And as much that we don't know where or even if things started, that doesn't mean we fill in those gaps with baseless conjectures as fact.

I am not filling God in the gaps. I think that that there is good reason to believe that God created the universe. I don't see how that a timeless God contradicts cause and effect. If time began at the initiation of creation, that would be when time started. The same time as the initial cause.


You have no evidence for this God, you are inserting this God as an explanation for how the universe started, therefore you are filling the gaps of scientific knowledge with God. It's like many people inventing things about the brain and a connection to a 'soul' when they have no to little knowledge of how the brain actually works and nor do others in academia.
Last edited by Kaepora Gaebora on Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26775
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:19 am

jojo wrote:@Matthew Ellard: The Brane Theory hypothesis that you linked me to, is just another multiverse explanation. If that theory works, where did the three dimensional universes come from?
That is not the issue. The issue is that Brane Theory offers a scientific explanation for the existence this universe. This ends your previous claim that scientists offer "nothing to initiate the existence of the universe" . It also ends your other claim "There are only a couple of things that are transcendent of this Universe that could have initiated the universe(e.g. numbers and God)" as clearly the Branes are a real plausible alternative.

That now leaves you with the problem of supplying a scientific theory concerning "God". In your mind, "God" can be external to our universe (so as to initiate the big bang) but also talk to humans 13.7 billion years later, within the universe. Can you offer a description of the physical properties of this "God"? Well, no you can't because you never got that far. Your entire claim was based around your assertion that only "God and numbers" can explain the universe, which is now proven false.

jojo wrote: You still have a problem with origins.
No I don't. I have offered a scientific theory about the origins of this universe. The origin of the Branes in another dimension is another question. You haven't offered any explanation for this universe other than saying "God" did it, which isn't a theory at all as you can't define "God". The Branes have been defined. "God" hasn't.


jojo wrote:Your explanation of the history of God's commits the genetic fallacy. Your theory of the origin of the idea of gods does not disprove the probability of God. I'm am arguing for theism. That is the topic isn't it? Does God Exist?
(I think you mean generic rather than genetic. God can't have genes that evolved on Earth after God made the universe unless "God" can also travel backwards through time, which is not a characteristic of "God" mentioned in the Bible)

I'm now going to ask you to define and state characteristics of your "God" without using the word "God", as "Yahweh", "God" and other names are very recent human language inventions.

I Jojo, state that there is a thing called "X". "X" has the following characteristics and physical attributes.
1) "X" existed outside and at the same time as the singularity quantized into the "Big Bang"
2) "The same "X" waited 13.7 billion years and then communicated with humans on earth through burning bushes and other devices.
3) The same "X" removed the DNA from a couple having a baby and replaced it with his own substituted DNA so as to have a son, who then became "X"s spokesperson in a bronze age middle eastern community, but never taught him to write anything down.
4) "X" wrote a book about himself that plagiarized the floods and other myths from another pre-existing earthly religion.
5) "X" has a consciousness, can make decisions and can speak human languages.
6) "X" is simultaneously in all parts of the universe and thus can go faster than the speed of light.
7) "X" can lose battles against bronze age tribes on earth.
8) "X" collects an undefined "thingy" from every dead human and stores them in another undefined place called heaven. The undefined "thingy" from every dead human continues for eternity and thinks it is the same human that passed away.

9) "X" made humans in his own image (Genesis 1:27) yet humans have DNA shared with all pre-existing life on Earth.
10) "X" tricks humans by leaving the fossilized remains of early humans on earth although he created current humans in his own image.

Modify your assertion in anyway you want. (I don't want to create a strawman that you can back out of later)......and then we can talk about it.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26775
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:29 am

jojo wrote:Here is what I consider evidence
jojo wrote:The complex order of the universe (The idea that a finely tuned universe that can ultimately support life occurred by chance is astronomically improbable. It is far more probable to believe that the universe was designed, than to believe that it occurred by chance.
Jojo. There was no oxygen on Earth when life started here. Who ever "designed" Earth screwed up. It took 2.45 billion years for photosynthesis to produce Earth's 21% of oxygen in the atmosphere. Animals could not live on Earth until 500 million years ago.

By your own argument "God" designed Earth for anaerobic bacteria and that was it.

jojo
New Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:48 pm

Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby jojo » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:32 am

@ Matthew Ellard: No. I meant genetic fallacy. If you don't have an ultimate origin, you have a problem with origins. I think you are on the wrong thread. Again, I am arguing for theism, not other rabbit trails. Your oxygen argument still doesn't disprove the existence of God.


Return to “Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest