"Does god exist" debate

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Chachacha » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:17 pm

Okay, I've got it:

I BELIEVE!!!

I believe some people believe God exists.

I BELIEVE!!!

I believe God exists in the minds of those who believe God exists.

I BELIEVE!!!!

*******

There, now I'm a believer. Case closed. :P

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby moth1ne » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:34 pm

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... intro.html

This is an interesting article on Atheism. So when do you differ between "strong agnosticism" and "atheism". If believing something to be false is not the same as not believing something to be true?

Bottom line, the only thing that can be said about all atheists is that they don't believe in God.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... tions.html
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan, The Demon Haunted World

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Major Malfunction » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:35 pm

Buying into this argument over semantics is playing right into the apologetic's hands. They've been playing this game for thousands of years. It's where they exist, it's their realm, since they can't exist anywhere else in the Universe. They've been beaten back by the light of reason and now cling to the shadowy meanings between words.

The aim of this particular word game is to drive a wedge between atheists. Divide and conquer.

God does not exist. Call me what you will. I don't care.
This being was produced using the same process as other beings, and therefore, may contain traces of nuts.

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby moth1ne » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:18 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:God does not exist. Call me what you will. I don't care.

Eloquent in it's brevity, Major. I think we can all (confirmed atheists) agree that God is a superstition.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan, The Demon Haunted World

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Chachacha » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:25 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:Buying into this argument over semantics is playing right into the apologetic's hands. They've been playing this game for thousands of years. It's where they exist, it's their realm, since they can't exist anywhere else in the Universe. They've been beaten back by the light of reason and now cling to the shadowy meanings between words.

The aim of this particular word game is to drive a wedge between atheists. Divide and conquer.

God does not exist. Call me what you will. I don't care.


:clapping:

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby mapache 606 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:21 am

Donnageddon wrote:
moth1ne wrote:
For me it boils down to: I have no belief in a god, or gods. I am open minded to the concept, and any evidence that would prove a god exists. But I am not hopeful. And my open mindedness has a bear-trap trigger for bull crap flingers and con men.

I remain a skeptic.


Lance I hope you read my last post.

Don, Don. Your open mindedness is all I can hope for even with a bear trap trigger. You haven't closed your mind and for that I am happy. Remain that way until the day your heart stops and your mind turns off and if you suddenly become aware of being somewhere else then you will be pleasantly surprised. If you die and you do not become aware of not being here any longer then what the heck. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. You are not hopeful because you don't see the evidence. It may take dying to see that evidence. That's the way it is or some people. Just keep your mind open until you drop. I think I have heard enough.

I do NOT believe that God exist!
I KNOW that God exist!
The evidence is very clear.
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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:31 am

mapache 606 wrote:Lance I hope you read my last post.


Sure.
I suspect you will not be surprised when I tell you that I do not believe that astronomy is lagging. I think they have made wonderful strides and the discoveries of astronomers and cosmologists are fascinating.

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Bunyip » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:50 am

I think we can all (confirmed atheists) agree that God is a superstition.


Actually no. 'we' cannot make any such truth claim; that attracts the burden of proof. Atheism is only about disbelief. A positive claim is about knowledge.

I assert on 'I do not believe in gods due to the lack of credible evidence". I concede I may be mistaken,as as does Dawkins with his 6.9 out of 7 level of disbelief. It does not matter how unlikely I think the existence of any god to be.

As far as I'm aware,so far in recorded history,not one person has managed to prove or falsify the existence of gods.

For all practical purposes. I think the existence of the Abrahamic god to be so unlikely as to be risible. I think THOSE beliefs are almost certainly [the largely borrowed] mythology and superstitions of an insignicant,illiterate tribe of Bronze age Mesopotamian goat herders. I do not claim to KNOW that to be the case,because I do not...
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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:06 am

Bunyip wrote:
I think we can all (confirmed atheists) agree that God is a superstition.


Actually no. 'we' cannot make any such truth claim; that attracts the burden of proof. Atheism is only about disbelief. A positive claim is about knowledge.

I assert on 'I do not believe in gods due to the lack of credible evidence". I concede I may be mistaken,as as does Dawkins with his 6.9 out of 7 level of disbelief. It does not matter how unlikely I think the existence of any god to be.

As far as I'm aware,so far in recorded history,not one person has managed to prove or falsify the existence of gods.

For all practical purposes. I think the existence of the Abrahamic god to be so unlikely as to be risible. I think THOSE beliefs are almost certainly [the largely borrowed] mythology and superstitions of an insignicant,illiterate tribe of Bronze age Mesopotamian goat herders. I do not claim to KNOW that to be the case,because I do not...


As much as I like to poke fun at things, it is mostly at the silliness of some ideas or outright deception. You nicely explained my stance. Thank you!
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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby moth1ne » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:07 am

For me it boils down to: I have no belief in a god, or gods. I am open minded to the concept, and any evidence that would prove a god exists. But I am not hopeful. And my open mindedness has a bear-trap trigger for bull crap flingers and con men.

I remain a skeptic.

Um when did I say this mapache???
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan, The Demon Haunted World

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby moth1ne » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:19 am

Bunyip wrote:
I think we can all (confirmed atheists) agree that God is a superstition.


Actually no. 'we' cannot make any such truth claim; that attracts the burden of proof. Atheism is only about disbelief. A positive claim is about knowledge.

I assert on 'I do not believe in gods due to the lack of credible evidence". I concede I may be mistaken,as as does Dawkins with his 6.9 out of 7 level of disbelief. It does not matter how unlikely I think the existence of any god to be.

As far as I'm aware,so far in recorded history,not one person has managed to prove or falsify the existence of gods.

For all practical purposes. I think the existence of the Abrahamic god to be so unlikely as to be risible. I think THOSE beliefs are almost certainly [the largely borrowed] mythology and superstitions of an insignicant,illiterate tribe of Bronze age Mesopotamian goat herders. I do not claim to KNOW that to be the case,because I do not...


Superstition- is a belief in supernatural causality: that one event leads to the cause of another without any physical process linking the two events, such as astrology, omens, witchcraft, etc., that contradicts natural science.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstition

Does the concept of God not contradict natural science? As we know it?
I agree that there is no verifiable evidence to prove the non-existence of God, but claiming that it is superstitious, to me, seems reasonable. A belief in an omnipotent creator of the universe and of life on earth would be contradicting natural science that we know of, no? I am of course speaking of the Abrahamic god.

You atheists nerds... JK. As I understand it then, to make a positive claim, "God is a superstition, or God does not exist" is attracting the burden of proof? To disbelieve is to make no claim asserting you know god does or does not exist?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan, The Demon Haunted World

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Chachacha » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:51 am

I see the superstition. My sister, who is one of the nicest people in the world, does what I consider to be very superstitious *head nod to Stevie Wonder* things: I don't know if she "crosses" herself before getting into the shower, but she does it for most everything else: before she gets into a pool, before she starts her car, whenever she thinks of someone she loves or cares for who is having problems, etc. That's the talisman to "ward off evil" sign of the cross; then, when the evil has been successfully warded off, there is a "thank you, Spirit," sign on the cross.

It reminds me of the horns to ward off evil spirits, throwing salt over your shoulder, and offering sacrifices to please the gods and thank the gods.

There is one thing that I have NEVER understood, and that is the crucifix (which is the bloody, dead Jesus, or just before dead Jesus, on the cross) hanging over the marital bed. What is it there for, to make sure you don't have too much fun? To make sure you never forget, while you're having sex, that Jesus suffered and died for your sins?

Some people say it's to bless the marital bed, (What does that mean, make you fertile? Make the sex really good? Both?) but I don't buy it. If it was the loving God, or the Mother of God, or the nice, smiling Jesus holding a lamb or giving a blessing, maybe, but Crucifix Jesus? No.

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:05 am

Chachacha wrote:I see the superstition. My sister, who is one of the nicest people in the world, does what I consider to be very superstitious *head nod to Stevie Wonder* things: I don't know if she "crosses" herself before getting into the shower, but she does it for most everything else: before she gets into a pool, before she starts her car, whenever she thinks of someone she loves or cares for who is having problems, etc. That's the talisman to "ward off evil" sign of the cross; then, when the evil has been successfully warded off, there is a "thank you, Spirit," sign on the cross.

It reminds me of the horns to ward off evil spirits, throwing salt over your shoulder, and offering sacrifices to please the gods and thank the gods.

There is one thing that I have NEVER understood, and that is the crucifix (which is the bloody, dead Jesus, or just before dead Jesus, on the cross) hanging over the marital bed. What is it there for, to make sure you don't have too much fun? To make sure you never forget, while you're having sex, that Jesus suffered and died for your sins?

Some people say it's to bless the marital bed, (What does that mean, make you fertile? Make the sex really good? Both?) but I don't buy it. If it was the loving God, or the Mother of God, or the nice, smiling Jesus holding a lamb or giving a blessing, maybe, but Crucifix Jesus? No.


As for making the sign of the cross (talisman), the Catholic Church does seem to have adopted many pagan attributes and rituals. As is probably true for most religions, one built on a previous one.

As to the crucifix over the bed (or worn around the neck), it seems that the Church likes the control of a constant reminder of the "forgiveness of sins", which, paradoxically, wouldn't be sins without religion saying they are.
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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby mapache 606 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:34 pm

Sorry moth1ne, your name was accidently left in the post. This was for Don, Don

Donnageddon wrote:

moth1ne
For me it boils down to: I have no belief in a god, or gods. I am open minded to the concept, and any evidence that would prove a god exists. But I am not hopeful. And my open mindedness has a bear-trap trigger for bull crap flingers and con men.

I remain a skeptic.


Don, Don. Your open mindedness is all I can hope for even with a bear trap trigger. You haven't closed your mind and for that I am happy. Remain that way until the day your heart stops and your mind turns off and if you suddenly become aware of being somewhere else then you will be pleasantly surprised. If you die and you do not become aware of not being here any longer then what the heck. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. You are not hopeful because you don't see the evidence. It may take dying to see that evidence. That's the way it is or some people. Just keep your mind open until you drop. I think I have heard enough.

I do NOT believe that God exist!
I KNOW that God exist!
The evidence is very clear.
Such a life on such a planet!

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Bunyip » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:57 am

You atheists nerds... JK. As I understand it then, to make a positive claim, "God is a superstition, or God does not exist" is attracting the burden of proof? To disbelieve is to make no claim asserting you know god does or does not exist?


The notion of the positive claim has nothing to do with being a nerd or with atheism, and everything to do with logic.

For the willfully bloody minded: (Google is your friend)


A positive claim is any claim about reality. It may in fact be a "negative claim," that is to say a claim that something is "not real" or "not true." Positive claims should be supported with evidence in scientific settings. See Pseudoskepticism and Burden of proof.


http://www.wikisynergy.com/w/index.php? ... tive_claim
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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Chachacha » Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:46 am

scrmbldggs wrote: As for making the sign of the cross (talisman), the Catholic Church does seem to have adopted many pagan attributes and rituals. As is probably true for most religions, one built on a previous one.

As to the crucifix over the bed (or worn around the neck), it seems that the Church likes the control of a constant reminder of the "forgiveness of sins", which, paradoxically, wouldn't be sins without religion saying they are.


Yep! "We believe the Bible is the word of God because the Bible says it is the word of God; and we believe these things are sins because the Bible listed these sins from the word of God, which we know is true because the Bible says it's true."

:)

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:56 am

Chachacha wrote:Yep! "We believe the Bible is the word of God because the Bible says it is the word of God; and we believe these things are sins because the Bible listed these sins from the word of God, which we know is true because the Bible says it's true." :)

:lol:

Actually, it seems most religions have issues with reproductive activities. Probably because they are too much fun! :lol:

...and are a great tool to induce the guilt and shame to control people... while seemingly forgetting that if people really slowed down in that regard, their population and income would diminish too. Maybe they count on "disobedience" to have more reason to chew them out? :scratch:
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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:58 am

...and bill them... :(
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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Donnageddon » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:03 am

mapache 606 wrote:Don, Don. Your open mindedness is all I can hope for even with a bear trap trigger. You haven't closed your mind and for that I am happy.
....

I do NOT believe that God exist!
I KNOW that God exist!
The evidence is very clear.


My friend mapache, I do not reckon anyone here has their mind closed. But like me they just have a filter for illogical bull shite.

As for you KNOWING that God exists; I assume this is by personal revelation. I cannot argue against your personal revelation. It would be better if you had some proof, because your personal revelation, to me, could just be a brain tumor.
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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby whitmancharles » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:09 am

Major Malfunction wrote:Buying into this argument over semantics is playing right into the apologetic's hands. They've been playing this game for thousands of years. It's where they exist, it's their realm, since they can't exist anywhere else in the Universe. They've been beaten back by the light of reason and now cling to the shadowy meanings between words.

The aim of this particular word game is to drive a wedge between atheists. Divide and conquer.

God does not exist. Call me what you will. I don't care.


I agree 100%. Strong, weak, they're pretty much mean the same thing. Atheists don't need to play this game. God is a childish fantasy whether he's the Christian god or the undefined, transcendent, force. Get evidence, theists, then we can talk.

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Donnageddon » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:15 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Actually, it seems most religions have issues with reproductive activities. Probably because they are too much fun! :lol:

...and are a great tool to induce the guilt and shame to control people... while seemingly forgetting that if people really slowed down in that regard, their population and income would diminish too. Maybe they count on "disobedience" to have more reason to chew them out? :scratch:


Some of the restriction on reproductive activities may have come from experience. They may have seen that brothers and sisters getting it on, created some horrible deficient offspring. (although the bible is filled with incest, sanctioned, and pleasing to god)

For growing a religion (Catholic, Mormon), nothing helps more than disallowing any form of birth control, and one man impregnating as many women as possible to "grow the population of the soon-to-be indoctrinated". And why allow masturbation, when that seed could be used to sow more cattle for the lord?

It was the Shakers that got it all wrong. They did not allow any fornication, and depended on converts, and adoptions to replenish the herd. And thus that religion died out.

I admire the Shakers. Being a milkman in a Shaker community must have paid off some of the time.
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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby moth1ne » Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:32 am

Bunyip wrote:
You atheists nerds... JK. As I understand it then, to make a positive claim, "God is a superstition, or God does not exist" is attracting the burden of proof? To disbelieve is to make no claim asserting you know god does or does not exist?


The notion of the positive claim has nothing to do with being a nerd or with atheism, and everything to do with logic.

For the willfully bloody minded: (Google is your friend)


A positive claim is any claim about reality. It may in fact be a "negative claim," that is to say a claim that something is "not real" or "not true." Positive claims should be supported with evidence in scientific settings. See Pseudoskepticism and Burden of proof.


http://www.wikisynergy.com/w/index.php? ... tive_claim


Atheists nerds was a bit of a joke on my part. Sorry bun ;) I understand the logic but I still assert that God is a superstition in that the concept of God is a concept of supernatural causality and not verifiable by science. Why quibble over the semantics of the burden of proof and who has it when the theist/creationist will always have the burden of proof because they are making a supernatural claim?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan, The Demon Haunted World

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby moth1ne » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:11 am

And google is one of my best friends! :)
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan, The Demon Haunted World

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Donnageddon » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:15 am

moth1ne wrote:And google is one of my best friends! :)


As long as you only see Bing as an awkward acquaintance. Bing is a needy freak.
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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:21 am

Donnageddon wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Actually, it seems most religions have issues with reproductive activities. Probably because they are too much fun! :lol:

...and are a great tool to induce the guilt and shame to control people... while seemingly forgetting that if people really slowed down in that regard, their population and income would diminish too. Maybe they count on "disobedience" to have more reason to chew them out? :scratch:


Some of the restriction on reproductive activities may have come from experience. They may have seen that brothers and sisters getting it on, created some horrible deficient offspring. (although the bible is filled with incest, sanctioned, and pleasing to god)

For growing a religion (Catholic, Mormon), nothing helps more than disallowing any form of birth control, and one man impregnating as many women as possible to "grow the population of the soon-to-be indoctrinated". And why allow masturbation, when that seed could be used to sow more cattle for the lord?

It was the Shakers that got it all wrong. They did not allow any fornication, and depended on converts, and adoptions to replenish the herd. And thus that religion died out.

I admire the Shakers. Being a milkman in a Shaker community must have paid off some of the time.


The "don't do it/you must do it" attitude seems rather unhealthy to me. No wonder so many are so screwed up...
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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Bunyip » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:05 am

I agree 100%. Strong, weak, they're pretty much mean the same thing.


In any practical sense,of course. I call myself an agnostic (weak) atheist. That means I assert "I do not believe in gods" rather than "there are no gods" or "I believe there are no gods". In my daily life I live AS IF there are no gods.

However, the distinction becomes crucial if one is naive enough to try to have a rational discussion with a presuppositional apologist such as Mapache.

A reasonable response to "I know there is a god" is "show me your proof". If I assert "there is no god" or "I know there is no god'. a reasonable response is "show me your proof". I try not to make truth claims unless I'm able to support them with credible evidence.So far, I have never seen any credible evidence for or against the existence of god.
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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Major Malfunction » Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:28 am

Bunyip wrote:If I assert "there is no god" or "I know there is no god'. a reasonable response is "show me your proof". I try not to make truth claims unless I'm able to support them with credible evidence.So far, I have never seen any credible evidence for or against the existence of god.

I looked under the couch cushions, because if I was a god that's where I'd be. But all I found was a handful of change, a sticky lolly, and some crumbs. I hope god wasn't the lolly, because he was delicious.
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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Chachacha » Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:46 am

Bunyip, please give me some ideas on how to prove something which is a figment of the imagination doesn't exist.

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Gord » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:09 am

Ahhhh, you people are all nuts.
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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Bunyip » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:20 am

Chachacha wrote:Bunyip, please give me some ideas on how to prove something which is a figment of the imagination doesn't exist.


I have made no claims so need prove nothing. That honour belongs to the person(s) making the positive claims.That includes the claim that religion is based on superstitions. Although I think that is probably the case,I can't prove it,so make no truth claims.

An absence of evidence implies (suggests) actual absence, and usually turns out to be case.However,in and of itself, an absence of evidence is NOT proof of absence.


I have done my best to explain the concept of a positive claim. I seem I have done so poorly,but then I do not claim to be teacher and that is not my reason for being here.

I suggest perhaps also consider making yourself familiar with the concept of "the burden of proof"

The Wiki article cited below is a good place to start. See also legal and scientific burden of proof.

Holder of the burden

When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim. "If this responsibility or burden of proof is shifted to a critic, the fallacy of appealing to ignorance is committed".[1] This burden does not necessarily require a mathematical or strictly logical proof, although many strong arguments do rise to this level (such as in logical syllogisms). Rather, the evidential standard required for a given claim is determined by convention or community standards, with regard to the context of the claim in question.[2][3]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophi ... n_of_proof
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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby moth1ne » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:32 pm

Gord wrote:Ahhhh, you people are all nuts.

There are "traces of nuts"...
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan, The Demon Haunted World

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby moth1ne » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:38 pm

I agree with the Major... In the argument of claims for or against God the burden of proof will always lie on the believer. If something has not been proven to exist why infer probability that it could exist by choosing to not make a positive claim? In the case of god, I think it's completely logical to say "God does not exist". If science ever discovers proof of God's existence then I will retract my claim but until then, it seems rational.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan, The Demon Haunted World

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Austin Harper » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:43 pm

moth1ne wrote:
Gord wrote:Ahhhh, you people are all nuts.

There are "traces of nuts"...

But I have an allergy! There should be warning labels!
Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Monster » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:38 pm

moth1ne wrote:I agree with the Major... In the argument of claims for or against God the burden of proof will always lie on the believer. If something has not been proven to exist why infer probability that it could exist by choosing to not make a positive claim? In the case of god, I think it's completely logical to say "God does not exist". If science ever discovers proof of God's existence then I will retract my claim but until then, it seems rational.

Agreed.
Listening twice as much as you speak is a sign of wisdom.

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Chachacha » Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:46 pm

Chachacha wrote:Bunyip, please give me some ideas on how to prove something which is a figment of the imagination doesn't exist.


Bunyip wrote: I have made no claims so need prove nothing.


? I asked for suggestions, not proof, but you are making the claim that the burden of proof must be met in all circumstances, and that puts the burden of proof on you; but don't try because any claim that the burden of proof applies to things which don't exist outside the imagination of those who believe they do is, at best, a misunderstanding of the concept.

bunyip wrote: I suggest perhaps also consider making yourself familiar with the concept of "the burden of proof".


I am familiar with the concept: and it is nonsensical to insist that it be applied to things which exist only in the minds of people who believe they exist.

I do not insist that people who believe God exists outside their minds prove it, because I know they can't. They cannot prove God exists outside their imaginations, anymore than someone who believes they are sitting on a horse, when they aren't, can prove they are.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and absence of proof that something doesn't exist is not proof that it does, nor that it might. It is simply ridiculous to insist that the "burden of proof" applies to things which don't exist in any other form than the beliefs of those who believe they exist.

You keep insisting that we have to do the impossible without offering any suggestions on how that could be done, because there are none, because it can't be done with things which exist only in the imagination.

God, fairies, elves, unicorns, Pegasus, Poe's quoting raven, are all creatures of the imagination. That some people believe otherwise does not change that.

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby rickoshay85 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:21 pm

Monster wrote:While I work, I'm listening to a debate between Hitchens and William Lane Craig entitled "Does god exist?" which toook place at Biola Universty.


How did he debate with Hitchens -- Seance?
What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO. John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Chachacha » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:29 pm

rickoshay85 wrote:
Monster wrote:While I work, I'm listening to a debate between Hitchens and William Lane Craig entitled "Does god exist?" which toook place at Biola Universty.


How did he debate with Hitchens -- Seance?


Hopefully, you are just having a bit of fun. ;)

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Monster » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:51 pm

rickoshay85 wrote:
Monster wrote:While I work, I'm listening to a debate between Hitchens and William Lane Craig entitled "Does god exist?" which toook place at Biola Universty.


How did he debate with Hitchens -- Seance?

You know the answer. I know you know the answer. Give yourself a few seconds and it'll come to you.
Listening twice as much as you speak is a sign of wisdom.

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby moth1ne » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:40 am

Monster wrote:
moth1ne wrote:I agree with the Major... In the argument of claims for or against God the burden of proof will always lie on the believer. If something has not been proven to exist why infer probability that it could exist by choosing to not make a positive claim? In the case of god, I think it's completely logical to say "God does not exist". If science ever discovers proof of God's existence then I will retract my claim but until then, it seems rational.

Agreed.

I found this link to be quite interesting. Scroll down to the bit about "Fixing Classical Arguments".
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan, The Demon Haunted World

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Re: "Does god exist" debate

Postby Bunyip » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:20 am

? I asked for suggestions, not proof,


A semantic quibble; I have no interest in such an excerise.

but you are making the claim that the burden of proof must be met in all circumstances,


I made no such claims and I did not intend to imply any such thing. I explained a concept as I understand it in a specific context. I did not claim or intend to claim a universal principle.

I believe I am right in the context under discussion.However, I concede I may have misunderstood,and willing to be corrected.

; but don't try because any claim that the burden of proof applies to things which don't exist outside the imagination of those who believe they do is, at best, a misunderstanding of the concept.



What? What things? How have you proved such things do not exist? I agree that gods for example are almost certainly imaginary, but I CAN'T PROVE THAT. Neither have you;a bald assertion of opinion is not proof.

I guess we may need to agree to differ. My interest in what is becoming an obtuse semantic argument is at an end.
Last edited by Bunyip on Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Man is not so much a rational animal as a rationalising one.


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