Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

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Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Zeus22 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:32 pm

Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/d ... exist.html

http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums ... m.php?f=27

"...In recent months or over the last year or so I have interviewed Frank Zindler and Richard Carrier and David Fitzgerald and Robert Price all on the issue of mythicism ... when I spoke to these people I asked for their expertise collectively and what I got, especially from Fitzgerald and Robert Price, was that we should be speaking to tonights guest D.M. Murdock, author of 'Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver'."

- Aron Ra
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums ... 432#p29432



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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Gord » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:40 pm

Why are you promoting that garbage here?

If anyone's interested, there are actual experts on the subject who have questioned the existence of Moses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses

The existence of Moses as well as the veracity of the Exodus story are disputed among archaeologists and Egyptologists, with experts in the field of biblical criticism citing logical inconsistencies, new archaeological evidence, historical evidence, and related origin myths in Canaanite culture. Other historians maintain that the biographical details and Egyptian background attributed to Moses imply the existence of a historical political and religious leader who was involved in the consolidation of the Hebrew tribes in Canaan towards the end of the Bronze Age.

We don't need to look to fantasy writers like D.M. Murdock for this sort of stuff.
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:25 pm

No god, no plagues, no Exodus.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Pyrrho » Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:02 pm

No spamming. Topic locked, and I think I'll just go ahead and delete it.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Pyrrho » Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:41 pm

Eh, whatever, I'll unlock it. I would prefer that an OP listing a book and links to where it can be obtained would at least contain some discussion or review of the book.
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:56 pm

I like Peter Pan better.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:11 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:I like Peter Pan better.

I kept rooting for Captain Queeg.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:22 am

Willie!
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:24 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:I like Peter Pan better.

I kept rooting for Captain Queeg.

My favorite Bogey performance.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:26 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:I like Peter Pan better.

I kept rooting for Captain Queeg.

My favorite Bogey performance.

"Key Largo".
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Razell » Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:05 am

For "Gord," the detractor above calling D.M. Murdock a fantasy writer:

QUOTE:

"Over the decades that I’ve been writing about and teaching what is called “Jesus mythicism,” many educated people who have studied my work have made supportive comments. While my detractors like to toss out defamatory claims, the one thing most of them have in common is that they have never read my work and are just repeating falsehoods, rumors, smears, calumny and libel...

"What people are saying about the work of D.M. Murdock/Acharya S
February 22, 2015...

"Previously I have interviewed Frank Zindler, Richard Carrier, David Fitzgerald and Robert Price, all of whom are ‘mythicists'; they don’t think there was ever anyone alive whom we could recognize as either Jesus or Moses. Of the lot of them, I would have thought that Price was the foremost expert, but he referred me to D.M. Murdock, also known as Acharya S, author of Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver, an impressive piece of work. It’s definitive.” —Aron Ra, president, American Atheists-TX

“There are no words that can adequately thank you enough. You are a sensitive soul whose presence enlightens the world. I hope your readers realize what an incredible lady (human being) you are. I am proud to call you my friend. I send best wishes.” —Amil Imani, Iranian democracy activist and writer

“I have seen your site – smart, thoughtful, savvy! Great video! You put a lot of work into this, Acharya.” —Deven Green, creator of Mrs. Betty Bowers, America’s Best Christian

“Your scholarship is relentless! …the research conducted by D.M. Murdock concerning the myth of Jesus Christ is certainly both valuable and worthy of
consideration.” —Dr. Kenneth L. Feder, Professor of Archaeology, Central Connecticut State University, Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries: Science and Pseudoscience In Archaeology

“I find myself in full agreement with Acharya S/D.M. Murdock… I find it undeniable that…many, many of the epic heroes and ancient patriarchs and matriarchs of the Old Testament were personified stars, planets, and constellations…” —Dr. Robert M. Price, The Pre-Nicene New Testament

“I can recommend your work whole-heartedly!” —Dr. Robert Eisenman, James the Brother of Jesus and The New Testament Code, RobertEisenman.com

“Well-referenced, with numerous quotations from renowned Egyptologists and classical scholars, Acharya’s penetrating research clearly lays out the very ancient pre-Christian basis of modern Christianity. Those who espouse Christianity beware! After digesting the evidence, you will never again view your religion in the same light.” —Dr. Robert M. Schoch, Professor of Natural Science College of General Studies at Boston University; Author, Pyramid Quest, Voyages of the Pyramid Builders and Voices of the Rocks

“Acharya S deserves to be recognized as a leading researcher and an expert in the field of comparative mythology, on a par with James Frazer or Robert Graves—indeed, superior to those forerunners in the frankness of her conclusions and the volume of her evidence.” —Barbara Walker, The Women’s
Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets and Man Made God

“I’ve known people with triple Ph.D’s who haven’t come close to the scholarship in Who Was Jesus?” —Pastor David Bruce, M.Div, North Park Seminary, Chicago, HollywoodJesus.com

“Thirty years ago, when in divinity school, I might have had second thoughts about becoming an Episcopal priest if a book like D. M. Murdock’s Who Was Jesus? had been available to me.” —Bob Semes, Retired university professor of History and Religion, Founder and Executive Director of The Jefferson Center

“In addition to presenting in Suns of God the troubling history of religious wars in an easily followed narrative, Acharya goes a step further, explaining as only she can how a once-simplistic idea has been carried into our modern world with terrible and nearly unimaginable results.” —Rev. Dr. W. Sumner Davis, Fellow, Royal Astronomical Society; Member, American Geophysical Union; Affiliate, New York Academy of Science

“Ms. Murdock is one of only a tiny number of scholars with the richly diverse academic background (and the necessary courage) to adequately address the question of whether Jesus Christ truly existed as a walking-talking figure in first-century Palestine.” —David Mills, Atheist Universe

“Thank you, Acharya, for the important work you are doing. Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of the Christ just might be the best short introduction to Biblical scholarship yet.” —David Bergland, 1984 Libertarian Party Presidential Candidate, Libertarianism In One Lesson

“…I have found her scholarship, research, knowledge of the original languages, and creative linkages to be breathtaking and highly stimulating.” — Rev. Dr. Jon Burnham, Pastor, Presbyterian Church, Houston, TX

“Acharya S has done a superb job in bringing together the rich panoply of ancient world mythology and culture, and presenting it in a comprehensive and compelling fashion.” —Earl Doherty, The Jesus Puzzle

“Acharya S is a shining light of truth in a sea of deceit.” —Rob McConnell, X Zone Radio/TV, Ontario, Canada

“The Christ Conspiracy—very, very scholarly and wholly researched—is a book for today…” Rev. B. Strauss, ex-Catholic Priest, Chicago, IL

“Amidst the global chaos of George Bush’s War on Terror, largely founded on religious intolerance and simplistic notions of good and evil, Acharya S is the voice of reason.” —Joan D’Arc, Paranoia

“D.M. Murdock could well be the most brilliant, insightful and rigorous theologian writing today.” —Robert Tulip

“Acharya S is the ranking religious philosopher of our era.” —John K.

“Acharya S/Murdock deserves an award for her hard work and courage. She is the Galileo of our day!” —Charles Johnson

“Acharya S knows more about the ancient Mysteries than any living scholar.” —Christopher Knowles

“Acharya S is an amazing researcher with a tremendous amount of energy and appetite for constant discovery of newer horizons. ” —Dr. O.P. Sudrania

“D.M. Murdock is a genius. Her scholarship on this subject is impeccable and has conducted the most thorough research I’ve ever read.” —David Kim

“Acharya Murdock’s work is so important, so clear and so timely!” —Theresa Weiss, PowerPlaces.com

“I am Hindu, and I read the Bhaagavatham in which the life of Krishna is detailed. I also read your works, and I endorse you. Keep up the good work.” —Murali Chemuturi

“Sooooooo glad you continue to spread your messages! Having had the privilege to meet with you face-to-face and share lunch some years back, I certainly can vouch for you to be a sincere, warm, caring and highly engaging individual, and this world is all the better because of you.

“Having known Acharya for quite some time, and although our life’s paths have diverged, she is never far from mind, and all thoughts are positive. She is a solid driving force for all things wise, good and useful that make this earth a tad bit better. We could use millions more like her.” —Robert W.Morgan

“D.M. Murdock’s book Christ in Egypt is one of my main sources. Fantastic book!”

—Rev. Dr. Edward van der Kaaij, theologian and author of The Uncomfortable Truth of Christianity

“…In recent months or over the last year or so I have interviewed Frank Zindler and Richard Carrier and David Fitzgerald and Robert Price all on the issue of mythicism… when I spoke to these people I asked for their expertise collectively and what I got, especially from Fitzgerald and Robert Price, was that we should be speaking to D.M. Murdock, author of Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver‘.”

—Aron Ra, American Atheists-TX

“Your scholarship is relentless! …the research conducted by D.M. Murdock concerning the myth of Jesus Christ is certainly both valuable and worthy of consideration.”

—Dr. Kenneth L. Feder, Professor of Archaeology, Central Connecticut State University, Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries: Science and Pseudoscience In Archaeology

“I find myself in full agreement with Acharya S/D.M. Murdock… I find it undeniable that…many, many of the epic heroes and ancient patriarchs and matriarchs of the Old Testament were personified stars, planets, and constellations…”

—Dr. Robert M. Price, The Pre-Nicene New Testament

“I can recommend your work whole-heartedly!”

—Dr. Robert Eisenman, James the Brother of Jesus and The New Testament Code, RobertEisenman.com

“Well-referenced, with numerous quotations from renowned Egyptologists and classical scholars, Acharya’s penetrating research clearly lays out the very ancient pre-Christian basis of modern Christianity. Those who espouse Christianity beware! After digesting the evidence, you will never again view your religion in the same light.”

—Dr. Robert M. Schoch, Professor of Natural Science College of General Studies at Boston University; Author, Pyramid Quest, Voyages of the Pyramid Builders and Voices of the Rocks

“Acharya S deserves to be recognized as a leading researcher and an expert in the field of comparative mythology, on a par with James Frazer or Robert Graves—indeed, superior to those forerunners in the frankness of her conclusions and the volume of her evidence.”

—Barbara Walker, The Women’s Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets and Man Made God

“I’ve known people with triple Ph.D’s who haven’t come close to the scholarship in Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ.“

—Pastor David Bruce, M.Div, North Park Seminary, Chicago, HollywoodJesus.com

“Thirty years ago, when in divinity school, I might have had second thoughts about becoming an Episcopal priest if a book like D. M. Murdock’s Who Was Jesus? had been available to me.”

—Bob Semes, Retired university professor of History and Religion, Founder and Executive Director of The Jefferson Center

“In addition to presenting in Suns of God the troubling history of religious wars in an easily followed narrative, Acharya goes a step further, explaining as only she can how a once-simplistic idea has been carried into our modern world with terrible and nearly unimaginable results.”

—Rev. Dr. W. Sumner Davis, Fellow, Royal Astronomical Society; Member, American Geophysical Union; Affiliate, New York Academy of Science?

“Ms. Murdock is one of only a tiny number of scholars with the richly diverse academic background (and the necessary courage) to adequately address the question of whether Jesus Christ truly existed as a walking-talking figure in first-century Palestine.”

—David Mills, Atheist Universe

“Thank you, Acharya, for the important work you are doing. Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of the Christ just might be the best short introduction to Biblical scholarship yet.”

—David Bergland, 1984 Libertarian Party Presidential Candidate, Libertarianism In One Lesson

“…I have found her scholarship, research, knowledge of the original languages, and creative linkages to be breathtaking and highly stimulating.”

—Rev. Dr. Jon Burnham, Pastor, Presbyterian Church, Houston, TX

“Acharya S has done a superb job in bringing together the rich panoply of ancient world mythology and culture, and presenting it in a comprehensive and compelling fashion….

“A heavenly location for the actions of the savior gods, including the death of Christ, would also have been influenced by most religions’ ultimate derivation from astrotheology, as in the worship of the sun and moon. For this dimension of more remote Christian roots, see the books of Acharya S”

—Earl Doherty, The Jesus Puzzle; Jesus: Neither God Nor Man

“The Christ Conspiracy—very, very scholarly and wholly researched—is a book for today…”

—Rev. B. Strauss, ex-Catholic Priest, Chicago, IL

“D.M. Murdock could well be the most brilliant, insightful and rigorous theologian writing today.”

—Robert Tulip

“Acharya S knows more about the ancient Mysteries than any living scholar.”

—Christopher Knowles, The Secret History of Rock ‘N’ Roll" UNQUOTE

http://freethoughtnation.com/what-peopl ... acharya-s/

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby TJrandom » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:38 pm

@Razell... so no opinion of your own - just enless quotes of others. Why post at all?

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Poodle » Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:09 pm

It's a long list, Perhaps that's why it took almost a year to put together.

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Razell » Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:06 pm

TJrandom, with the positive "opinions," referrals and reviews by that many credentialed authors and scholars why even ask for my opinion? Don't you think the evidence speaks for itself? Even though my opinion echos the above since I've read 5 of DM Murdock's books it won't matter much, but the above will. In addition DM Murdock can't honour her legacy herself since she passed away on the 25th of December last year. I suppose her readers and supporters will have to take up the challenge.

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby TJrandom » Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:44 am

Razell wrote:TJrandom, with the positive "opinions," referrals and reviews by that many credentialed authors and scholars why even ask for my opinion? Don't you think the evidence speaks for itself? Even though my opinion echos the above since I've read 5 of DM Murdock's books it won't matter much, but the above will. In addition DM Murdock can't honour her legacy herself since she passed away on the 25th of December last year. I suppose her readers and supporters will have to take up the challenge.


Erm, what challenge? True believers will always believe, and those who don`t won`t be convinced. Authors praising other authors? Who`da thought it. :roll:

BTW - you have my sympathies - having read 5 of `em... :)

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Gord » Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:54 am

Razell wrote:For "Gord," the detractor above calling D.M. Murdock a fantasy writer:

QUOTE:

Thanks. This is my main concern -- that people are taking this woman's fantasy writing seriously. Some of the people you've quoted should know better.
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Razell » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:56 am

People with credentials, with PhDs, who's work have been peer reviewed take her "fantasy writing" seriously... nice try Gord.

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:24 am

You mean people like Robert Tulip?

Finally one of Acharya’s fairly prominent online supporters, Robert Tulip, has “come out” and made it very clear that my suspicions were right all along. Astrotheology — the view they propagate — is a form of religious belief. They believe as strongly as any fundamentalist that they are right and anyone who does not agree with them after they explain it all is perverse or willfully blind. Expressions of disagreement are interpreted as expressions of hostility or even persecution.
http://vridar.org/2014/03/28/astrotheol ... acharya-s/
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Gord » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:03 am

Razell wrote:People with credentials, with PhDs, who's work have been peer reviewed take her "fantasy writing" seriously...

Yes. Do you see the problem with that now?

nice try Gord.

You're welcome.
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Razell » Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:33 pm

Scrmbldggs you mean like the belief called "Atheism?" I never said I agree 100% with the theory that the origins of all ancient religions were "Astrotheological," but "Murdock's" work is certainly not fiction. Some Mystery religions were certainly practicing altered states of consciousness and possibly founded as a result of visions and influenced by Mysticism in general rather than just "Astrotheology." Gord if only three or four credentialed individuals were in support of D.M. Murdock's work your course of reasoning might hold a little more water.

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:08 pm

Razell wrote:Scrmbldggs you mean like the belief called "Atheism?" I never said I agree 100% with the theory that the origins of all ancient religions were "Astrotheological," but "Murdock's" work is certainly not fiction. Some Mystery religions were certainly practicing altered states of consciousness and possibly founded as a result of visions and influenced by Mysticism in general rather than just "Astrotheology."...
(Emphasis mine)

Altered states of consciousness might have very well been the source of much "Mysticism". I wouldn't give much credence to such "wisdom" induced by all kinds of artificial means, apparently even drugs (P. harmala is Peganum harmala5):
...
The Naqshbandi Sufis identify P. harmala (also known as Syrian Rue) as the burning bush of Moses for two important reasons...
...
“[T]he murdered body of Hiram Abiff, a Master Mason and Master of Works on Solomon’s Temple, was ‘raised’ from his resting place beneath an acacia sprig which marked the spot to those who would be sent by King Solomon to search. After the interred corpse of Hiram was found, Solomon himself went to the site to recover the body. Feeling beneath the ground at the site of the acacia, the king felt Hiram’s ‘hand.’ In the process of recovering his corpse, he first used the grip of the Entered Apprentice, then that of the Fellowcraft, but twice felt the skin slipping off Hiram’s hand. Finally Solomon used the grip of the Master Mason to raise the corpse. In the entheobotanical context, we feel that this myth is a description of a ritualized acacia harvest. We note that the subterranean root bark of acacia and mimosa species are known to contain high levels of Dimethyltryptamine, an entheogen which is strongly psychoactive when extracted and inhaled, and which is easily combined with other sacred entheogenic plants, and consumed as a potion.”2
...
What other than DMT could the “treasures” created from acacia have been? Again, the implication is explicit. The scriptural allusions in the above excerpt refer to a biblical episode wherein a burning coal of an unspecified substance is placed upon Isaiah’s lips by an angel, assumedly for him to inhale its fumes; that is, for him to smoke it. “Lo,” said the angel, “this [burning coal] hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin is purged.”10 Recall that acacia literally means freedom from sin. One wonders how far back this tradition actually goes.
http://realitysandwich.com/314264/the-u ... ic-ritual/
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Gord » Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:22 am

Razell wrote:Gord if only three or four credentialed individuals were in support of D.M. Murdock's work your course of reasoning might hold a little more water.

Can you cite other writers who have used Murdock's work as references?
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Razell » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:03 am

Scrmbldggs, Mysticism is an umbrella term. Altered states of consciousness and the use of entheogens are only a small part of Mysticism. Exegesis, escatology, epistemology, syncretism, sacred geometry, discernment, working of miracles, words of knowledge and wisdom, faith, healing, stigmata, xenoglossy, glossolalia, prophetic gifts, extrasensory perception, psychokinesis, apparitional experiences, bilocation, the supernatural (to others the paranormal), amongst countless others are all branches of Mysticism. I never said altered states of consciousness is the source of much "Mysticism." I said: "... and influenced by Mysticism in general.

Gord, taking on the laborious task of providing you with a list of citations in order to shift your opinion to a more favourable one of D.M. Murdock's work is wishful thinking, even though I have no doubt that others have cited her work. Secondly, I gathered your mind is pretty made up. Last but not least, I'm certain the list of referrals I provided will allay a handful of sceptics.

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Gord » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:47 am

Razell wrote:Gord, taking on the laborious task of providing you with a list of citations...

Um, isn't that what you tried to do already? I saw a long list of mostly pointless snippets of quotes from a multitude of people, a few of which are supposedly "experts" of one kind or another. If you're saying you underwent no "laborious task" in compiling it, then am I to conclude that you simply performed a cut/paste job and have relied on someone else's work to back up your beliefs? Or have you actually looked into the quotes you provided?

Secondly, I gathered your mind is pretty made up.

I concede that you don't know me very well.

Last but not least, I'm certain the list of referrals I provided will allay a handful of sceptics.

I doubt it. A quick glance suggests many of those quotes could easily have been taken out of context. A skeptic would look at such a thing and wonder if it was actually ever meant as the endorsement it's being claimed to have been.

So yeah, I was really hoping you might have something more substantial to back up your support for Murdock.
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:33 pm

Razell wrote:Scrmbldggs, Mysticism is an umbrella term. Altered states of consciousness and the use of entheogens are only a small part of Mysticism. Exegesis, escatology, epistemology, syncretism, sacred geometry, discernment, working of miracles, words of knowledge and wisdom, faith, healing, stigmata, xenoglossy, glossolalia, prophetic gifts, extrasensory perception, psychokinesis, apparitional experiences, bilocation, the supernatural (to others the paranormal), amongst countless others are all branches of Mysticism. I never said altered states of consciousness is the source of much "Mysticism." I said: "... and influenced by Mysticism in general...


Small difference. You said: Some Mystery religions were certainly practicing altered states of consciousness and possibly founded as a result of visions and influenced by Mysticism in general rather than just "Astrotheology." viewtopic.php?f=26&t=25297&p=506653#p506501

I wouldn't give validity to anything based on altered states of consciousness (past, present and future), by whatever means, and "therefore warranting belief, research and serious discussion", period.

Would you take, lets say, what a schizophrenic raves about seriously?
.

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Zeus22 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:45 pm

Baaahahahahaha,

It should be no surprise to anybody at this forum that Gord - the biased, bigoted, pseudo-skeptic calls a book he has never read, "garbage." Here's a real 30-year scholar with two Ph.D's post on Amazon for this book:

[quote][b][size=150]""D" should stand for "Doctorate"!

"Amazing! This would make a fine dissertation, and you can tell anyone I said so! I wish I could award you a doctorate! You deserve one, my friend."

- Dr. Robert Price, Biblical Scholar with two Ph.D's[/size][/b][/quote]


[quote="Gord"]Why are you promoting that garbage here?

If anyone's interested, there are actual experts on the subject who have questioned the existence of Moses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[quote]The existence of Moses as well as the veracity of the Exodus story are disputed among archaeologists and Egyptologists, with experts in the field of biblical criticism citing logical inconsistencies, new archaeological evidence, historical evidence, and related origin myths in Canaanite culture. Other historians maintain that the biographical details and Egyptian background attributed to Moses imply the existence of a historical political and religious leader who was involved in the consolidation of the Hebrew tribes in Canaan towards the end of the Bronze Age.[/quote]
We don't need to look to fantasy writers like D.M. Murdock for this sort of stuff.[/quote]


[quote="Zeus22"][url=http://www.amazon.com/Moses-Exist-Myth-Israelite-Lawgiver/dp/0979963184/thruthbeknownfoun]Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver[/url]

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/d ... exist.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums ... m.php?f=27" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[quote]"...In recent months or over the last year or so I have interviewed Frank Zindler and Richard Carrier and David Fitzgerald and Robert Price all on the issue of mythicism ... when I spoke to these people I asked for their expertise collectively and what I got, especially from Fitzgerald and Robert Price, was that we should be speaking to tonights guest D.M. Murdock, author of 'Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver'."

- Aron Ra
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums ... 432#p29432" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[/quote]


[img]http://freethoughtnation.com/didmosesexist.jpg[/img][/quote]

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:51 pm

:blink:

Do you think if Aron Ra mentions being given some sort of advise, that constitutes any type of endorsement on his part?
.

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Gord » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:22 am

Zeus22 wrote:It should be no surprise to anybody at this forum that Gord - the biased, bigoted, pseudo-skeptic calls a book he has never read, "garbage.

Oh great, the mighty strawman destroyer has returned.

If you ever figure out what I've been trying to get through your thick skull, come back and apologize and I'll forgive you. In the meantime, I hope you don't manage to harm yourself or others.
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Razell » Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:01 am

Scrmbldggs don't tell me you won't give validity to anything based on altered states of consciousness, tell that to the ancient founders of the "Mystery religions." Tell that to the ancient and modern day shamans of Siberia and the Amazon jungle, tribal medicine men and women and African witchdoctors. Tell that to authors and experts on the subject for eg. John Allegro (author of The sacred mushroom and the cross,) Graham Hancock (author of Supernatural,) Jan Irvin (author of Astrotheology & shamanism,) Terence McKenna (author of Food for the gods and Psilocybin: Magic mushroom growers' guide,) Francis Crick (author of Of molecules and men,) Timothy Freke (author of The mystery experience,) Caroline Myss (author of Anatomy of the spirit,) Ajit Mookerjee (author of Kundalini - the arousal of the inner energy,) Yogananda (author of Autobiography of a Yogi,) El Collie (author of Branded by Spirit,) Jana Dixon (author of Biology of Kundalini,) Kai Purr (author of Kundalini serpent and the Godhood,) Jeremy Narby (author of The cosmic serpent: DNA and the origins of knowledge,) Dr. Larry Jensen (Holy spirit & Kundalini) and Mukunda Stiles (author of Tantra Yoga secrets.) All these books relate directly to altered states of consciousness and it's impact on religion, whether or not the cause is a Kundalini episode, a NDE, OBE, entheogenic, psychedelic, fasting or food deprivation, severe trauma, meditation, yoga etc. David Lewis Williams (archaeology professor in South-Africa) also developed a theory which explains ancient cave art - altered states of consciousness of course. Don't take my word for it, have a look at the above mentioned books for yourself. It doesn't matter if you or I do or don't give personal credence to something we deduce are mere delusions or signs of dementia.

Gord, yes I have looked into those referrals and did not give it a quick glance as you have (your own words.) Some of the referrals by others was my own inclusions and the rest are indeed to be found at the link I provided, duh! I will look into and compile a list of citations of D.M. Murdock's work.

Greatly appreciate the back-up Zeuz22!

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:21 am

Razell wrote:Scrmbldggs don't tell me you won't give validity to anything based on altered states of consciousness, tell that to the ancient founders of the "Mystery religions." Tell that to the ancient and modern day shamans of Siberia and the Amazon jungle, tribal medicine men and women and African witchdoctors. Tell that to authors and experts on the subject for eg. John Allegro (author of The sacred mushroom and the cross,) Graham Hancock (author of Supernatural,) Jan Irvin (author of Astrotheology & shamanism,) Terence McKenna (author of Food for the gods and Psilocybin: Magic mushroom growers' guide,) Francis Crick (author of Of molecules and men,) Timothy Freke (author of The mystery experience,) Caroline Myss (author of Anatomy of the spirit,) Ajit Mookerjee (author of Kundalini - the arousal of the inner energy,) Yogananda (author of Autobiography of a Yogi,) El Collie (author of Branded by Spirit,) Jana Dixon (author of Biology of Kundalini,) Kai Purr (author of Kundalini serpent and the Godhood,) Jeremy Narby (author of The cosmic serpent: DNA and the origins of knowledge,) Dr. Larry Jensen (Holy spirit & Kundalini) and Mukunda Stiles (author of Tantra Yoga secrets.) All these books relate directly to altered states of consciousness and it's impact on religion, whether or not the cause is a Kundalini episode, a NDE, OBE, entheogenic, psychedelic, fasting or food deprivation, severe trauma, meditation, yoga etc. David Lewis Williams (archaeology professor in South-Africa) also developed a theory which explains ancient cave art - altered states of consciousness of course. Don't take my word for it, have a look at the above mentioned books for yourself. It doesn't matter if you or I do or don't give personal credence to something we deduce are mere delusions or signs of dementia...


K, I'm baffled. How much sense does it make to take hallucinations seriously and hold weighty discourse about them? I'm not saying those things (hallucinations and visions) don't happen, I'm saying they are worthless as also anything based on them is worthless. (I'm not speaking of such as therapeutic values here, they do exist. But to base belief systems and, gawd farbid, religions and their often far-reaching requirements on such is just insane. As to history - well, there's a history of drug use and/or religious/spiritual practices - so what? Where's the validity of mere stories, especially those stemming from addles brains or control issues?)

It's plain nuts, nuts, I tells ya... :?



(BTW, Terence McKenna croaked a while back and, AFAIK, hasn't been imparting anything of import to his adoring followers - not via machine elves or otherwise. :mrgreen:)
.

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Gord » Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:58 am

Razell wrote:Gord, yes I have looked into those referrals and did not give it a quick glance as you have (your own words.) Some of the referrals by others was my own inclusions and the rest are indeed to be found at the link I provided, duh! I will look into and compile a list of citations of D.M. Murdock's work.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Do you know what this guy was referring to?

“There are no words that can adequately thank you enough. You are a sensitive soul whose presence enlightens the world. I hope your readers realize what an incredible lady (human being) you are. I am proud to call you my friend. I send best wishes.” —Amil Imani, Iranian democracy activist and writer

Is that meant to be an endorsement of her work? It seems a bit oddly out of place.

Greatly appreciate the back-up Zeuz22!

Oops, careful there! Zeuz22 is well-known around these parts for just getting things outright wrong. You probably don't want to get associated with him.
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Razell » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:35 am

Scrmbldggs, I have no quells with your personal take on altered states of consciousness or whether or not it merits a discussion in regards to it's influence on the founding of certain ancient (and modern) cults or sects. The fact remains many experts do think it did and still do influence religions and spirituality. In order to get back to what I originally said, Astrotheology wasn't the only primary cause of all ancient religions, altered states of consciousness and mysticism clearly played a role too. I'm not discussing my own personal beliefs here, lets be clear on that.

D.M. Murdock was an avid opponent of those using the Quran to justify "gender apartheid," "female genital mutilation," "sexism," "exclusion" (in education for instance,) and mostly because of it's very damaging literal interpretations, like with other holy scriptures. If you did not glance over the referrals and actually read her material "Amil Imani's" endorsement would make more sense to you.

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Razell » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:40 am

My apologies Scrmbldggs, the last paragraph was meant for Gord, not for you.

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Gord » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:49 am

Razell wrote:D.M. Murdock was an avid opponent of those using the Quran to justify "gender apartheid," "female genital mutilation," "sexism," "exclusion" (in education for instance,) and mostly because of it's very damaging literal interpretations, like with other holy scriptures. If you did not glance over the referrals and actually read her material "Amil Imani's" endorsement would make more sense to you.

I have read some of her "material", but not all of it. I am not one of her spaz fans, and I am not going to read everything she's ever written.

Now, what the hell does her opposition to such things have to do with her fantasy writing?
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Razell » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:52 am

Oh, for God's sake Gord, D.M. Murdock clearly opposed the dangerous literal reading of the Quran, because her work demonstrated it's all myth - all the way down to the allegory of the divine messenger emerging from his cave, in this case Muhammad. That's blatantly obvious! If you want to insist that her work is "fantasy writing," I suggest we will have to agree to disagree.

I am not a spaz fan of "D.M. Murdock," since we have had our disagreements too. I had a discussion with her on social media (December 2013,) where I asked her to explain the role Mysticism (including altered states of consciousness) had to play in ancient mythology and religion. She clearly thought Astrotheology (including nature worship) was the Primary and only cause of all ancient myths and religions. My stance is that the cause was rather a Syncretism of both (and other secondary causal) disciplines.

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Gord » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:24 pm

Razell wrote:Oh, for God's sake Gord, D.M. Murdock clearly opposed the dangerous literal reading of the Quran, because her work demonstrated it's all myth - all the way down to the allegory of the divine messenger emerging from his cave, in this case Muhammad. That's blatantly obvious! If you want to insist that her work is "fantasy writing," I suggest we will have to agree to disagree.

So then, it has nothing at all to do with what we're talking about?

I am not a spaz fan of "D.M. Murdock,"

Great, that makes two of us.
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Razell » Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:17 am

I'm not here to spoon-feed Gord. If you want to get stuck on one verse or referral and ignore the rest, be my guest, but I have no time for a dimwit.

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Poodle » Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:52 am

I keep re-reading this thread in an attempt to discover what it's actually about. I haven't succeeded yet.

Is it about Moses? Well, no. How could it be? That's a story about a man with a very common Egyptian name but with a very questionable early history doing questionable things with a set of people whose very existence in Egypt is (very) questionable, eventually precipitating a non-existent exodus from one part of Egypt to what was, at the time, another part of Egypt. Basically, then, we have no good grounds to claim his existence as the biblical character. Good material for yet another 'true discovery' book on events in the late Bronze Age, but that's about it.

Alternatively, it's fan mail - a hysterical defence of a particular writer whose claims can neither be proved nor disproved. Nebulous history has always provided meat and drink for those kinds of books. Some, to be fair, are honest attempts whilst others are second-hand danikens. Take your pick. But Bronze Age history is pretty murky at the best of times when it comes to individuals.

Did Moses exist? Probably not. There's no evidence to speak of. As the original post is nothing more than an advertisement for a book about this non-evidence, I see no reason to look further.

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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Gord » Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:27 pm

Razell wrote:I'm not here to spoon-feed Gord.

Right, why are you here?

...I have no time for a dimwit.

For a dimwit, you do seem pretty busy. :P
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Re: Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver

Postby Poodle » Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:37 pm

:lol:

Well read, sir!


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