Does the media love mass shooting?

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:33 am

Coveny: we have the argument, the words, the point. Arguing about words is normally a rat hole especially with someone who wants to use them however they wish under the rubric that the language grows.

So what is the point you want to make as accurately as you can make it? Aka: does the media love mass shootings?

EDIT: "accurate": use the dictionary meaning of words. aka: communicate universally, not just those who already agree with you.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:44 am

Coveny wrote: You say my "typos" then you talk about how I'm using an emotional point (not my point, just the point someone else made that I'm addressing so you are confused) with unemotional supporting information.(my point) What typos are you struggling to understand the words behind? Tell me the sentence and I'll try to add some clarity.

I find this a particularly dishonest dodge. You made it YOUR point when you borrowed the language as YOUR own without attribution otherwise. Saying that words grow does not avoid the reality that they are used incorrectly on purpose for emotional manipulation. Another dishonest dodge.

Now.......don't get me wrong. "I" don't think its dishonest at all......I heard someone else say it.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:00 am

Well, I'm embarrassed.

Coveny: you certainly do attribute your attention grabbing QUESTION right from the start. Ha, ha. Wish I had an eeg to replay how I pigeon holed your OP. ((My private joke: pigeon holes have pigeon {!#%@}....I've never seen it mentioned anywhere.))

The above written on a very quick skim of your OP. Now.....I'll read it again for its neutrality vs advocacy.

...............Yea verily: its bias vs bias. Is gun violence measured by number of deaths in America low enough on the rank order of impact that it should be ignored entirely? I don't think so. Its not "just" the number of deaths, but the collateral damage to the surviving family members/friends/society as a whole.

Basically, in my view, this is a cover story to promote the interests of the NRA. This I assume is what threw me off track... the emotional residue of a well constructed snipe hunt. I'll echo your own admonishment: don't YOU have better issues to flog?
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:59 am

Pyrrho wrote:
Easy to condemn. Not so easy to consider the possibilities, especially when all facts are not in evidence.


The question is, What would Jesus do? Or John Wayne or Agent 008. Or Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Wait, wait. ..... Sorry, let me rethink this.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Aztexan » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:27 am

Having two holes in the center of both your hands severely restricts your ability to fire off a well-placed shot, IMO so Jesus with a gun is about as useful as his {!#%@} daddy is.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:48 am

Tom Palven wrote: Wait, wait. ..... Sorry, let me rethink this.
Tom's solution to the mass school shooting by a mad person, via his Libertarian Party's policies.

The Libertarian Party Policies
Gun Control
We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense. We oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, registering, or monitoring the ownership, manufacture, or transfer of firearms or ammunition.
http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Libert ... ontrol.htm

Public Health care/ Mad people's right to buy large magazine Assault Rifles.
We advocate a complete separation of medicine from the state. We support an end to government-provided health insurance and health care.
http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Libert ... h_Care.htm

You are part of the problem Tom. :lol:

I can see the Libertarian Party of Russia has been sending you talking point scripts again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertari ... _of_Russia

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:39 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: Wait, wait. ..... Sorry, let me rethink this.

I can see the Libertarian Party of Russia has been sending you talking point scripts again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertari ... _of_Russia


The link says they have an Adam Smith Forum in Russia.

Cool!
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Coveny » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:26 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Well, I'm embarrassed.

Coveny: you certainly do attribute your attention grabbing QUESTION right from the start. Ha, ha. Wish I had an eeg to replay how I pigeon holed your OP. ((My private joke: pigeon holes have pigeon {!#%@}....I've never seen it mentioned anywhere.))

The above written on a very quick skim of your OP. Now.....I'll read it again for its neutrality vs advocacy.

...............Yea verily: its bias vs bias. Is gun violence measured by number of deaths in America low enough on the rank order of impact that it should be ignored entirely? I don't think so. Its not "just" the number of deaths, but the collateral damage to the surviving family members/friends/society as a whole.

Basically, in my view, this is a cover story to promote the interests of the NRA. This I assume is what threw me off track... the emotional residue of a well constructed snipe hunt. I'll echo your own admonishment: don't YOU have better issues to flog?


To my mind there is issue that is destroying this country and the people's lives in it than wealth inequality. If you believe another topic has a higher effect I welcome you to bring it up and explain how it does. See as dishonesty goes, I consider what you have done and continue to do dishonest. I stated my position, you nitpicked semantics, then had no problem with the semantics when someone used the word the same way. When I busted you on that, now you've flopped over to I should have something better to address, yet you (unlike me) haven't given anything better to address. This is a dishonest way of telling me to shut up in my opinion. Wealth inequality is huge problem in this country that causes anger, hopelessness, and frustration. Those type feelings lead to violence, in the same manner as when any other animal feels like it's been backed into the corner.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:59 pm

There will always be violence - and there hardly has ever been as little as today.
The question is what what weapons we make available to the few who prefer violence.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Coveny » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:16 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:There will always be violence - and there hardly has ever been as little as today.
The question is what what weapons we make available to the few who prefer violence.


Humans continue to get smarter, and their capacity to figure out how to kill people in mass only continues to grow. The question is what will we do to lower their desires to kill others, and foster coexistance.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:51 pm

Coveny wrote:Humans continue to get smarter, and their capacity to figure out how to kill people in mass only continues to grow. The question is what will we do to lower their desires to kill others, and foster coexistance.


I'm not sure humans are getting smarter. :D

However I would agree a larger percentage of humans are reaching a basic standard of living. It is to me, that war between nations will reduce, as international economies become so intertwined that warfare will no longer be economically viable and people will have a good quality of life in their own countries.


However, as for the tiny percentage of individual idiots who want to shoot up people.........well.......... we simply need to ban guns. Education and public health just can't catch that tiny percentage of mad people....because they are just mad in so many different ways.

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:56 pm

Tom Palven wrote: The link says they have an Adam Smith Forum in Russia. Cool!

You really don't know anything about what's going on in the real world, do you? :lol:

Russian Police arrests Libertarians during Adam Smith forum
https://ftn.media/russian-police-arrest ... mith-forum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=14&v=6NvXeWy8geQ

It's lucky that the Skeptic Society opened a Russian skeptic office, to keep an eye on these things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeptic_Society
Russian skeptic logo.jpg
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Coveny » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:16 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Coveny wrote:Humans continue to get smarter, and their capacity to figure out how to kill people in mass only continues to grow. The question is what will we do to lower their desires to kill others, and foster coexistance.


I'm not sure humans are getting smarter. :D

However I would agree a larger percentage of humans are reaching a basic standard of living. It is to me, that war between nations will reduce, as international economies become so intertwined that warfare will no longer be economically viable and people will have a good quality of life in their own countries.


However, as for the tiny percentage of individual idiots who want to shoot up people.........well.......... we simply need to ban guns. Education and public health just can't catch that tiny percentage of mad people....because they are just mad in so many different ways.


Might want to have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

However there is a tiny percentage of individuals crazy\idiots who want to kill other people.... well .... we simply need guns to protect ourselves from them. It's easy to see from the U.K. and other countries that banning guns just increases crime rates over time as black markets form, they use bombs, or knives, or cars, or airplanes to commit their horrendous crimes. So as has been true since the days of the wild west "Colt made all men equal".
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:16 am

Coveny wrote:However there is a tiny percentage of individuals crazy\idiots who want to kill other people.... well .... we simply need guns to protect ourselves from them. It's easy to see from the U.K. and other countries that banning guns just increases crime rates over time as black markets form, they use bombs, or knives, or cars, or airplanes to commit their horrendous crimes. So as has been true since the days of the wild west "Colt made all men equal".


I'm Australian. We banned guns. Mad people can't get their hands on guns. We have one of the world's lowest murder rates. It is that simple.

Why would we want guns back?
:D

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Coveny » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:34 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Coveny wrote:However there is a tiny percentage of individuals crazy\idiots who want to kill other people.... well .... we simply need guns to protect ourselves from them. It's easy to see from the U.K. and other countries that banning guns just increases crime rates over time as black markets form, they use bombs, or knives, or cars, or airplanes to commit their horrendous crimes. So as has been true since the days of the wild west "Colt made all men equal".


I'm Australian. We banned guns. Mad people can't get their hands on guns. We have one of the world's lowest murder rates. It is that simple.

Why would we want guns back?
:D


See the thing is prohibition works for a bit while the black market sets up its infrastructure. That infrastructure is just about in place now. Mad people DO get their hands on guns in Australia.
https://reason.com/archives/2016/03/22/ ... -a-violent
https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/nationa ... m-exposed/
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... earms-guns
https://www.acic.gov.au/sites/g/files/n ... 1477016769

Now if we are on the topic. Let’s have a look at the DROP in crime in the U.S. in comparison to the number of guns purchased. Hmm that's interesting. Crime rates are going down as gun purchases are going up. If guns are the problem why is that?

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:02 am

Would gun sales by background checks give the accurate number? And even though it's been on a steady decline, violent crime rate apparently went up since 2015/in 2016.
.

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:11 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Coveny wrote:However there is a tiny percentage of individuals crazy\idiots who want to kill other people.... well .... we simply need guns to protect ourselves from them. It's easy to see from the U.K. and other countries that banning guns just increases crime rates over time as black markets form, they use bombs, or knives, or cars, or airplanes to commit their horrendous crimes. So as has been true since the days of the wild west "Colt made all men equal".


I'm Australian. We banned guns. Mad people can't get their hands on guns. We have one of the world's lowest murder rates. It is that simple.

Why would we want guns back?
:D

"bombs, or knives, or cars, or airplanes" and even pressure cookers have been used successfully - even though portions of the country are armed to the teeth. Sadly many with assault weapons of war (AK-15), that even the Supreme Court is saying are not protected under the 2nd Amendment.
.

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:21 am

Coveny wrote: See the thing is prohibition works for a bit while the black market sets up its infrastructure. That infrastructure is just about in place now. Mad people DO get their hands on guns in Australia.
Name one mad person who has used a gun in Australia since Martin Bryant in 1996.

Coveny wrote: Let’s have a look at the DROP in crime in the U.S. in comparison to the number of guns purchased. Hmm that's interesting. Crime rates are going down as gun purchases are going up. If guns are the problem why is that?

1) Legalised Abortion,
2) Decreasing poverty
3) Increasing education.
4) Increasing internment

Imagine how good it will be when you also get rid of guns. One day the USA may be like Australia where people don't shoot school kids in large numbers.
:D


Number of gun related deaths per 100,000
Australia = 0.93
USA = 10.16

(I have no idea why Americans lecture Australians on how to reduce gun deaths)
:D
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:23 am

Coveny: now you have me totally confused. JUST WHAT IS YOUR ISSUE? Is it as you title your OP the media is in love with mass shootings, or is it as you affirmatively state What is the Biggest "Issue" in America Tody (with your answer being Wealth Inequality which is a very good answer), or is it something to do with guns that you have all muddled up?

Your first argument re guns was that that on the scale of importance, they weren't. You are just wrong on that. Only a single issue advocate can think such a thing...........and this is not a single issue world.

Can guns be effectively banned or does that only set up a black market? Hmmmm....now, which do I prefer: a black market for guns with 1 death per 100K or a free and unrestricted market with 150 deaths per 100K.

Or do you want to talk about wealth inequality?
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:25 am

Coveny wrote: Let’s have a look at the DROP in crime in the U.S. in comparison to the number of guns purchased. Hmm that's interesting. Crime rates are going down as gun purchases are going up. If guns are the problem why is that?

Wow. That is really silly. Need more be said? .................I'll wait, just in case.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Coveny » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:20 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Would gun sales by background checks give the accurate number? And even though it's been on a steady decline, violent crime rate apparently went up since 2015/in 2016.


Well I consider all that crime as created by Trump empowering racists and sexist that no longer feel like they need to hide their BS.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Coveny » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:30 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Coveny wrote: See the thing is prohibition works for a bit while the black market sets up its infrastructure. That infrastructure is just about in place now. Mad people DO get their hands on guns in Australia.
Name one mad person who has used a gun in Australia since Martin Bryant in 1996.

Coveny wrote: Let’s have a look at the DROP in crime in the U.S. in comparison to the number of guns purchased. Hmm that's interesting. Crime rates are going down as gun purchases are going up. If guns are the problem why is that?

1) Legalised Abortion,
2) Decreasing poverty
3) Increasing education.
4) Increasing internment

Imagine how good it will be when you also get rid of guns. One day the USA may be like Australia where people don't shoot school kids in large numbers.
:D


Number of gun related deaths per 100,000
Australia = 0.93
USA = 10.16

(I have no idea why Americans lecture Australians on how to reduce gun deaths)
:D


So you admit that people are killing other people in Australia with guns, but you don't consider them "mad", and want me to "name one". Could you define what you consider "mad" please? I tend to think anyone who commits murder is, but apparently you disagree on that definition.

Oh wow increasing ... education? Did you seriously just say that? Our education system continues to fall in world rankings, poverty decreasing is almost as much BS. I have actually seen some research that says abortions decrease crime but those laws haven't changed while the rates have declined. (same with incarceration numbers)

So you got a temp downtick in homicides, and we achieved the same thing without creating a black market for guns and you are "proud" of that? You didn't even address the fact that the infrastructure from black market guns is growing and illegal guns are getting worse in your country.

Lastly don't frame the debate. Compare the big three. Homicide, Burglary, and rape. I mean seriously it's like say you are fine with being stolen from, raped, or killed so long as it's not a gun that does it. (talk about cherry picking the data...)
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Coveny » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:34 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Coveny: now you have me totally confused. JUST WHAT IS YOUR ISSUE? Is it as you title your OP the media is in love with mass shootings, or is it as you affirmatively state What is the Biggest "Issue" in America Tody (with your answer being Wealth Inequality which is a very good answer), or is it something to do with guns that you have all muddled up?

Your first argument re guns was that that on the scale of importance, they weren't. You are just wrong on that. Only a single issue advocate can think such a thing...........and this is not a single issue world.

Can guns be effectively banned or does that only set up a black market? Hmmmm....now, which do I prefer: a black market for guns with 1 death per 100K or a free and unrestricted market with 150 deaths per 100K.

Or do you want to talk about wealth inequality?


My issue is that we are focusing on guns (a symptom) rather than wealth inequality (the problem) because that is what the media feeds the America people when it does not effect that many people. (to use a word I believe you used in the Musk debate it's negligible)

Again don't blow smoke. Compare Homicide to homicide, and include burglary and rape.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:54 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: Number of gun related deaths per 100,000
Australia = 0.93
USA = 10.16

Coveny wrote:So you admit that people are killing other people in Australia with guns
I clearly pointed out you Americans shoot ten times more than we do per 100,000. I never said we never had no fire arm deaths.

Coveny wrote:Could you define what you consider "mad" please?
A person with a diagnosed psychiatric illness.

Coveny wrote:Oh wow increasing ... education? Did you seriously just say that? Our education system continues to fall in world rankings.......
So fix your education system. You just agreed with me without realising. :D

Coveny wrote:So you got a temp downtick in homicides
What time-frames are your reviewing to claim temporary? Don't make stuff up on a skeptic forum.

Coveny wrote: , and we achieved the same thing without creating a black market for guns
You have both a black market in guns and ten times the fire arm death rate per 100,000 compared to Australia. Your claim is nonsense.

Coveny wrote: I mean seriously it's like say you are fine with being stolen from, raped, or killed so long as it's not a gun that does it. (talk about cherry picking the data...)
No. As our police don't have to hunt down maniacs with AR15s they have more time to solve rapes, theft and so on. It's called application of resources.

I note you have not offered any solution to your mass school shootings. You just accept it.

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:59 pm

Coveny wrote: Compare Homicide to homicide, and include burglary and rape.


DOES ABORTION LOWER THE CRIME RATE?
https://scholar.harvard.edu/barro/files ... ate_bw.pdf

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:08 pm

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... ics-charts wrote:As I see it, the core issue is that America as a whole refuses to even admit it has a serious problem with guns and gun violence. And more than that, lawmakers continue acting like the solutions are some sort of mystery, as if there aren’t years of research and experiences in other countries that show restrictions on firearms can save lives.


https://people.howstuffworks.com/strict ... crime1.htm wrote:
...On the other hand, Norway, Finland, Germany, France and Denmark, all countries with heavy gun ownership, have a history of low murder rates...

...one recent study suggests that stricter state gun laws do make a difference. In a study published in the May 13, 2013 issue of JAMA Internal Medicine, researchers concluded that states with the most firearm legislation have the lowest rates of firearm-associated deaths, as well as the lowest rates of both murders and suicides with guns...



ETA RTC laws increase violent crime “All this work is based on statistical models...When the models all generate similar estimates, it increases your confidence that you have captured the true effect.”
.

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Coveny » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:54 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: Number of gun related deaths per 100,000
Australia = 0.93
USA = 10.16

Coveny wrote:So you admit that people are killing other people in Australia with guns
I clearly pointed out you Americans shoot ten times more than we do per 100,000. I never said we never had no fire arm deaths.


Yes and continue to try to frame the argument. So I'll assume you are fine with being killed so long as it's not a gun. Good to know.

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Coveny wrote:Could you define what you consider "mad" please?
A person with a diagnosed psychiatric illness.

Please admit you were wrong... Diagnosed mental illness on medication for it with a gun.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-29/f ... ge/8570294

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Coveny wrote:Oh wow increasing ... education? Did you seriously just say that? Our education system continues to fall in world rankings.......
So fix your education system. You just agreed with me without realising. :D

Interesting you should mention that. You MIGHT want to look in the original post to see who is agreeing to with who on the topic of needing to fix the education system in America. Glad to see you'll need to admit to being wrong a second time...

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Coveny wrote:So you got a temp downtick in homicides
What time-frames are your reviewing to claim temporary? Don't make stuff up on a skeptic forum.

Says the guy who's keeps making stuff up. (and getting busted on it)

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Coveny wrote: , and we achieved the same thing without creating a black market for guns
You have both a black market in guns and ten times the fire arm death rate per 100,000 compared to Australia. Your claim is nonsense.

Again with the fire arm deaths rather than homicides, burglary, and rape numbers.

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Coveny wrote: I mean seriously it's like say you are fine with being stolen from, raped, or killed so long as it's not a gun that does it. (talk about cherry picking the data...)
No. As our police don't have to hunt down maniacs with AR15s they have more time to solve rapes, theft and so on. It's called application of resources.

Solve more rapes? What? Speaking of making stuff up. You have the US on homicide, I can't disagree there, but rape is worse there than here. Please present your 3rd recant.
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-l ... f4fd019b8e

Matthew Ellard wrote:I note you have not offered any solution to your mass school shootings. You just accept it.
[/quote]
I have offered a solution. To fix wealth inequality and listed the 3 things that need to be addressed. (spoiler alert education was one of them)
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Coveny » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:56 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Coveny wrote: I have actually seen some research that says abortions decrease crime but those laws haven't changed while the rates have declined. (same with incarceration numbers)


DOES ABORTION LOWER THE CRIME RATE?
https://scholar.harvard.edu/barro/files ... ate_bw.pdf


There I fixed your quote of me to the correct sentence to show how you are presenting strawman fallacies. (You're welcome)
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Coveny » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:02 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... ics-charts wrote:As I see it, the core issue is that America as a whole refuses to even admit it has a serious problem with guns and gun violence. And more than that, lawmakers continue acting like the solutions are some sort of mystery, as if there aren’t years of research and experiences in other countries that show restrictions on firearms can save lives.


https://people.howstuffworks.com/strict ... crime1.htm wrote:
...On the other hand, Norway, Finland, Germany, France and Denmark, all countries with heavy gun ownership, have a history of low murder rates...

...one recent study suggests that stricter state gun laws do make a difference. In a study published in the May 13, 2013 issue of JAMA Internal Medicine, researchers concluded that states with the most firearm legislation have the lowest rates of firearm-associated deaths, as well as the lowest rates of both murders and suicides with guns...



ETA RTC laws increase violent crime “All this work is based on statistical models...When the models all generate similar estimates, it increases your confidence that you have captured the true effect.”


That horse has been beat to death and there are examples of strict gun law states that have high homicide rates and weak gun law states that have high homicide rates. (it's almost like it's not about the guns but the socioeconomic aspects or something, someone should create a topic on that to discuss it...)
https://www.factcheck.org/2015/10/gun-l ... nd-crimes/
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:32 am

Coveny wrote: Yes and continue to try to frame the argument. So I'll assume you are fine with being killed so long as it's not a gun. Good to know.
I'm framing an argument about mass shootings in a thread about mass shootings. You are trying to push in all other crimes. Nice try..... . :lol:


Coveny wrote:Could you define what you consider "mad" please?
Matthew Ellard wrote: A person with a diagnosed psychiatric illness.
Coveny wrote:Please admit you were wrong... Diagnosed mental illness on medication for it with a gun.
Monis was not diagnosed with a mental illness at the time. He had previously murdered his wife for money. Didn't you know? Monis was a con artist already facing other murder charges. That's why he did it. :lol:


Coveny wrote:Oh wow increasing ... education? Did you seriously just say that? Our education system continues to fall in world rankings.......
Matthew Ellard wrote: So fix your education system. You just agreed with me without realising. :D
Coveny wrote:Interesting you should mention that. You MIGHT want to look in the original post to see who is agreeing to with who on the topic of needing to fix the education system in America.
Nope I'm right. Increasing education reduces crime. Are you directly saying it doesn't? :lol:

Coveny wrote:So you got a temp downtick in homicides
Matthew Ellard wrote: What time-frames are your reviewing to claim temporary? Don't make stuff up on a skeptic forum.
Coveny wrote: Says the guy who's keeps making stuff up.
So you admit you don't have any statistics and simply made up a claim our low murder rate is temporary? :lol:


Coveny wrote: , and we achieved the same thing without creating a black market for guns
Matthew Ellard wrote:You have both a black market in guns and ten times the fire arm death rate per 100,000 compared to Australia. Your claim is nonsense.
Coveny wrote: Again with the fire arm deaths rather than homicides, burglary, and rape numbers.
It was your claim about black market guns I responded to. Are you directly denying there is a black market for guns in the USA?


Matthew Ellard wrote: No. As our police don't have to hunt down maniacs with AR15s they have more time to solve rapes, theft and so on. It's called application of resources.
Coveny wrote:Solve more rapes? What? Speaking of making stuff up. You have the US on homicide, I can't disagree there, but rape is worse there than here. Please present your 3rd recant.
You are having a bad day aren't you? :lol: Think really hard. If more police are working on rape cases will the conviction statistic go up or down? Secondly here is the actual comparison.
Crime > Rape rate: Countries Compared
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-inf ... /Rape-rate
Australia = 28.6
United States 27.3


Coveny wrote:I have offered a solution. To fix wealth inequality and listed the 3 things that need to be addressed. (spoiler alert education was one of them)
.....but not eliminating guns and simultaneously you saying your education system is worsening, That's not really going to work in the short term, is it?

So.......how many guns do you own to defend your self against mad people with guns ? :lol:

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Coveny » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:49 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: No. As our police don't have to hunt down maniacs with AR15s they have more time to solve rapes, theft and so on. It's called application of resources.
Coveny wrote:Solve more rapes? What? Speaking of making stuff up. You have the US on homicide, I can't disagree there, but rape is worse there than here. Please present your 3rd recant.
You are having a bad day aren't you? :lol: Think really hard. If more police are working on rape cases will the conviction statistic go up or down? Secondly here is the actual comparison.
Crime > Rape rate: Countries Compared
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-inf ... /Rape-rate
Australia = 28.6
United States 27.3


You just ridiculed me while providing proof that I'm correct and you are wrong, and that Australia has more rape than the United States.

Ok done discussing this with you...
Last edited by Coveny on Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:49 am

Coveny wrote: That horse has been beat to death ......
Translation : I cannot get around those hard facts so I will ignore them

Coveny wrote:and there are examples of strict gun law states that have high homicide rates and weak gun law states that have high homicide rates.
Let's review the top firearm death countries to see who has the higher death rate simultaneously with strict gun laws....

Which countries are you going to offer as evidence for your hilarious claim.


1) Honduras =67.18 per 100,000
2) Venezuela = 59.13
3) El Salvador = 45.6
4) Swaziland= 37.16
5) Guatemala = 34.10
6) Jamaica = 30.72
7) Colombia = 25.94
8) Brazil = 21.2
9) Panama = 15.11
10) Uruguay = 11.52
11) United States = 10.16
12) Montenegro = 8.91
13) Philippines = 8.90

54) Australia = 0.93

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:01 am

Coveny wrote: You just ridiculed me while providing proof that I'm correct and you are wrong, and that Australia has more rape than the United States.
No. I ridiculed you for denying banning guns would reduce the fire arm murder rate.

I then humiliated you for showing that Australian and USA rape reports are almost the same, while informing you that rape reports have been going up as more police resources have been applied to rape cases in Australia,

Trends in violent crime / Australian Institute of Criminology
"Based on self-reported victimisation and reporting to police, it would seem increased reporting of assault is somewhat responsible for the rise in recorded assault rates against adult victims. However, victimisation survey data suggest there has been little change in rates of sexual assault, although reporting to police by women seems to have increased."
https://aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi359

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Coveny » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:15 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: I ridiculed you for denying banning guns would reduce the fire arm murder rate. [/color]

I then humiliated you for showing that Australian and USA rape reports are almost the same, while informing you that rape reports have been going up as more police resources have been applied to rape cases in Australia,

Trends in violent crime / Australian Institute of Criminology
"Based on self-reported victimisation and reporting to police, it would seem increased reporting of assault is somewhat responsible for the rise in recorded assault rates against adult victims. However, victimisation survey data suggest there has been little change in rates of sexual assault, although reporting to police by women seems to have increased."
https://aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi359


Ya I didn't do that please stop making stuff.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:31 am

Coveny wrote: Ya I didn't do that please stop making stuff.


Sooooo.........you made up a statistic that Australia was only having a "temporary" reduction in fire arms deaths, using your imagination.

You then state Australia has a higher rape level which is in fact marginal and nothing to do with guns or mass shooting. It is because more rapes are being reported to police.

Australia = 28.6 per 100,000
United States 27.3 per 100,000


You then claim banning guns in Australia doesn't work because of our "black market in guns", while simultaneously looking at the actual statistics. :lol:
Number of gun related deaths per 100,000
Australia = 0.93
USA = 10.16

You simply like guns, don't you? :lol:

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Coveny » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:15 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Coveny wrote: Ya I didn't do that please stop making stuff.


Sooooo.........you made up a statistic that Australia was only having a "temporary" reduction in fire arms deaths, using your imagination.

You then state Australia has a higher rape level which is in fact marginal and nothing to do with guns or mass shooting. It is because more rapes are being reported to police.

Australia = 28.6 per 100,000
United States 27.3 per 100,000


You then claim banning guns in Australia doesn't work because of our "black market in guns", while simultaneously looking at the actual statistics. :lol:
Number of gun related deaths per 100,000
Australia = 0.93
USA = 10.16

You simply like guns, don't you? :lol:


Not how that happened, not what I said, please stop making stuff up.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:24 am

Coveny wrote:Not how that happened, not what I said, please stop making stuff up.
Really?
Coveny four posts ago wrote: So you (Australia) got a temp downtick in homicides
What periods did you compare to say our low firearm death was "temporary"? None. You made it up. :lol:


Number of gun related deaths per 100,000
Australia = 0.93
USA = 10.16

Coveny wrote:and we achieved the same thing without creating a black market for guns
Really? When was that? ......You also made that up. You also made up the bit about the USA not having a black market for guns. :lol:


Coveny wrote:Could you define what you consider "mad" please?
Matthew Ellard wrote:A person with a diagnosed psychiatric illness.
Coveny wrote:Please admit you were wrong..
You linked to Monis who was not diagnosed with a mental illness but had a gun siege as he was facing an earlier murder charge for burning his ex-wife to death for money.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/lin ... hb0zf.html

Coveny wrote:and there are examples of strict gun law states that have high homicide rates and weak gun law states that have high homicide rates.
I asked you to name these magical countries. You couldn't because you made it up.

1) Honduras =67.18 per 100,000
2) Venezuela = 59.13
3) El Salvador = 45.6
4) Swaziland= 37.16
5) Guatemala = 34.10
6) Jamaica = 30.72
7) Colombia = 25.94
8) Brazil = 21.2
9) Panama = 15.11
10) Uruguay = 11.52
11) United States = 10.16
12) Montenegro = 8.91
13) Philippines = 8.90

54) Australia = 0.93

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby Coveny » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:47 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Coveny wrote:Not how that happened, not what I said, please stop making stuff up.
Really?
Coveny four posts ago wrote: So you (Australia) got a temp downtick in homicides
What periods did you compare to say our low firearm death was "temporary"? None. You made it up. :lol:


Number of gun related deaths per 100,000
Australia = 0.93
USA = 10.16

Coveny wrote:and we achieved the same thing without creating a black market for guns
Really? When was that? ......You also made that up. You also made up the bit about the USA not having a black market for guns. :lol:


Coveny wrote:Could you define what you consider "mad" please?
Matthew Ellard wrote:A person with a diagnosed psychiatric illness.
Coveny wrote:Please admit you were wrong..
You linked to Monis who was not diagnosed with a mental illness but had a gun siege as he was facing an earlier murder charge for burning his ex-wife to death for money.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/lin ... hb0zf.html

Coveny wrote:and there are examples of strict gun law states that have high homicide rates and weak gun law states that have high homicide rates.
I asked you to name these magical countries. You couldn't because you made it up.

1) Honduras =67.18 per 100,000
2) Venezuela = 59.13
3) El Salvador = 45.6
4) Swaziland= 37.16
5) Guatemala = 34.10
6) Jamaica = 30.72
7) Colombia = 25.94
8) Brazil = 21.2
9) Panama = 15.11
10) Uruguay = 11.52
11) United States = 10.16
12) Montenegro = 8.91
13) Philippines = 8.90

54) Australia = 0.93


Said homicide not firearm

Temp referenced UK as non-temp

Creation of a blackmarket was in reference to prohibition

Mental health - https://www.inquisitr.com/1684772/exper ... -problems/
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/syd ... 2ajn5.html

I said state not country

Please stop making stuff up. You obviously don't want to discuss this objectively, and I'm cool with that, different strokes for different folks, but all you need do to stop having to deal with your cognitive dissonance go is stop responding this thread is mostly dead anyway.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:23 am

Coveny wrote: My issue is that we are focusing on guns (a symptom) rather than wealth inequality (the problem) because that is what the media feeds the America people when it does not effect that many people. (to use a word I believe you used in the Musk debate it's negligible)

Please make your position as clear as possible because what you advocate for here makes no sense at all. If there is a mass shooting in Florida, its Wealth Inequality that should be discussed. When there is a short supply of flu vaccines, its Wealth Inequality that should be discussed. When there is too much lead in the drinking water, its Wealth Inequality that should be discussed.....and so on. Is this your position? No other subject is relevant to any other issue until Wealth Inequality is dealt with? aka: ONLY the most important challenge to society can be spoken about because with 320Million people, we don't have the ability to talk about multiple issues?

Do you accept or reject that "the number of people affected by guns" is more than the number of people killed by them?

Coveny wrote: Again don't blow smoke. Compare Homicide to homicide, and include burglary and rape.

Ummm....let's talk about smoke. If you want to compare Homicide to homicide shouldn't you stick to homicides? What else is "include burglary and rape" except smoke???? Its not just smoke you create when you jump around as you do as shown in your quote even within a single short sentence.

Its fun how we think. Certain meme's get lodged in and refuse to leave. "What do you think, and how do you change your mind?" Endlessly fascinating. Debaters should be among the world's best at changing their minds....or is the skill set seen as something external?

Amusing.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:23 pm

Just for grins: http://www.businessinsider.com/world-ec ... tion-308-8

world-biggest-problems-concerning-millennials-

No 1 is Lack of economic opportunity and unemployment which I was going to say is close enough to Wealth Inequality to say Coveny and I are right on the mark. but then at No 3 I found " Inequality (income, discrimination) and I realized the list started with No 10. Speed Reading: a good way to misunderstand most of what I read? Ha, ha.


Being in the top 3 is always admirable and close enough that reasonable people will not argue the ranking as reasonable people can consider more than just one issue. But if we accept the survey results and Coveny's admonishment, we should only talk about Global Warming or War before Wealth Inequality even comes up. Those folks at Davos have it all wrong.

Guns don't even make the list of concerns unless they are part of No 9 Safety / security / well being or No 2 War neither of which sounds like a good fit. Thats a problem with "World" surveys....the rest of the world doesn't have the Second Amendment (those poor people!).

As the smoke might clear, GW certainly affects everyone on the earth...or will eventually. Hard to find a subject that affects everyone or the most? I thought Daylight Savings might fit the bill? .......But I dither.
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