It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:41 pm

I think this is very appropriate:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5b3e0ef7e4b05127ccef8d35/amp

Never seen any of the movies.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Gord » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:52 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I think this is very appropriate:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5b3e0ef7e4b05127ccef8d35/amp

Never seen any of the movies.

I got one he can use: "In Space Force, no one can hear you scream."
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby TJrandom » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:40 pm

Gord wrote:https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/us-border-migrant-trump-olivia-caceres-texas-mother-child-lice-dirt-policy-a8435456.html

Migrant mother says her son came back to her after 85 days ‘covered in dirt and lice’

Hers is one of the hundreds of accounts included in a lawsuit against the Trump administration's family separation policy

...She said about her son’s return: “He continued to cry when we got home and would hold on to my leg and would not left me go”.

“When I took off his clothes, he was full of dirt and lice...It seems like they had not bathed him the 85 days he was away from us,” she noted....

Someone at ICE probably figured, "Dirty Mexicans don't need to be bathed."


They will get the fire hose from now on....

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby TJrandom » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:46 pm

I have some yardwork to do, so I wonder... is there a signup list to get some of those separated children? :roll:

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:23 am

Comes now Mike Pompeo with the dumbest dumbass remark ever. After fulfilling his mission of reporting great progress (as anybody could have predicted) in the meeting with NK, then having his rosy assessment contradicted by the North Koreans, he said the following:

Mike Pompeo wrote:People are going to make stray comments after meetings. If I paid attention to the press, I'd go nuts.



Just three comments, Mike: (1) No, in North Korea, nothing like "stray comments" are ever heard. What the government released is official, government prose. (2) Thanks for confirming that you don't read newspapers. (3) You are already nuts; there's nowhere to go from here.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby TJrandom » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:05 pm

And narry a mention of the Pueblo, or the remains of long dead servicemen. Who suspected it was all a farce? :roll:

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:42 pm

TJrandom wrote:And narry a mention of the Pueblo, or the remains of long dead servicemen. Who suspected it was all a farce? :roll:


Ah yes! I'll bet Trump would like us to forget those little details, along with the canceling of sanctions (temporary, but it will be hard to renew them) and the canceling of joint maneuvers with SK. I must say, the way this blew up in his face would be very gratifying if not for the danger it poses to world peace. But, these things are a seesaw. Trump may yet be able to salvage something that looks like a turnaround. Right now, I'd like to be a fly on the wall when Pompeo meets with his boss.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:25 pm

I still like Trumps review of the whole situation: Good beaches on which to build condo's. The guy always has the bottom line in view. Pueblo? Terrible location for condos.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Gord » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:20 pm

https://globalnews.ca/news/4309237/fart ... ar-canada/

FART: Oddly-named Trump draft bill would rip global trade rules

...The United States Fair and Reciprocal Tariff Act, or FART Act would upend the fundamental principles of the WTO, by allowing the U.S. president to raise tariffs at will. A leaked copy of an early draft of such legislation appeared on Sunday on news website Axios....

Surely this is a fake act that was created by the presdidn't just to be leaked to the media?
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:32 pm

Gord wrote:https://globalnews.ca/news/4309237/fart-trump-trade-war-canada/

FART: Oddly-named Trump draft bill would rip global trade rules

...The United States Fair and Reciprocal Tariff Act, or FART Act would upend the fundamental principles of the WTO, by allowing the U.S. president to raise tariffs at will. A leaked copy of an early draft of such legislation appeared on Sunday on news website Axios....

Surely this is a fake act that was created by the presdidn't just to be leaked to the media?


Certainly looks like it. I'll bet Trump was hoping the "fake media" would seize on this and give him a "gotcha" moment. He's not a very clever troller. Like a dog playing poker, he wags his tail every time he gets a good hand.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:37 pm

If you can get past the paywall, here are a couple of good reads:
Trump’s mental state.

And…
the consequences for the US.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Darren Wilshak » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:03 pm

Image

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:37 am

Looks like they are going to make it hot for him this week. Mainly, I hope the Queen snubs him royally. I hope she sits in stony silence and says only what is scripted for her to say.


Could anybody have imagined that an American President would be greeted this way in the UK? Not even during the Viet Nam War was there such massive hatred. That balloon is something he's pretty much bound to see if the weather is good. I never pray for good weather (or anything else), but I do most earnestly hope the whole visit will take place in bright sunny weather.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby TJrandom » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:05 am

Trumps` antics as president provide good supporting evidence for a policy of confiscatory inheritance taxation. How else to explain his narcissism and behaviours his mother should have spanked him for - than by privilege of inherited wealth? Heaven forbid a perpetuation amongst his progeny once this cancer upon humanity finally improves the world by passing on, and by similar degenerates.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:31 pm

And the winning continues:

on the Korean peninsula

and with our staunch allies.

Pity poor Theresa May. She's between a rock and a hard place. The best solution all around would be for her to resign and let "Brexit" drop. Just cancel all the negotiations up to this point and stay in the EU. Of course, that's impossible; she has to go through with it. As things are, she needs Trump, and there is no more unenviable position in the world than to be in need of Trump.

But I wonder: a few weeks ago, the Queen canceled a scheduled visit to a service at St. Paul's on the grounds that she was not feeling well. Would such an excuse allow her to cancel her scheduled meeting with Trump? Even better, if they manage to troll him well enough, would he be stupid enough to cancel the meeting himself? That would really put the fat into the fire.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby TJrandom » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:51 pm

As expected....
Pompeo's North Korea meeting went 'as badly as it could have gone'


...except of course by the bully boy master negotiator for the US.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Gord » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:01 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:But I wonder: a few weeks ago, the Queen canceled a scheduled visit to a service at St. Paul's on the grounds that she was not feeling well. Would such an excuse allow her to cancel her scheduled meeting with Trump? Even better, if they manage to troll him well enough, would he be stupid enough to cancel the meeting himself? That would really put the fat into the fire.

It's Trump. You don't have to do anything particularly clever to trick him. Just get someone from the rock band Queen to declare they don't want to meet with him, and Trump'll cancel his trip to meet the English monarch out of confusion.

Reacting without having all the facts first is pretty much his thing.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:55 am

TJrandom wrote:Trumps` antics as president provide good supporting evidence for a policy of confiscatory inheritance taxation. How else to explain his narcissism and behaviours his mother should have spanked him for - than by privilege of inherited wealth? Heaven forbid a perpetuation amongst his progeny once this cancer upon humanity finally improves the world by passing on, and by similar degenerates.


I absolutely agree with your proposal. I would like an inheritance tax of 100% on all inheritances valued at more than $2,000,000. It could be zero below that, and I wouldn't mind. I want this not to bring money into the treasury, but to destroy the hereditary aristocracy of wealth that allows idiots like Trump and his idiot children to live in luxury and wield great power and influence.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:05 am

Gord wrote:Reacting without having all the facts first is pretty much his thing.


The disturbing thing is that his followers recognize that he does this, and they don't care. They seem to have no understanding that you can't keep on thinking with your guts for very long without courting disaster.

Take, for instance, this woman (mother of a deceased Navy Seal), who demonstrates not only that she is unaware of the danger, but also that she can't even remember what was in the news. She thinks Trump enacted a lot of legislation! I suppose a person who gets all her news from Fox might have that impression; Fox News viewers don't strike me as the kind of people who try to organize and reflect on what they have seen. I pass over in silence her appalling belief that Presidents are ordained by God rather than elected by the people through a very flawed Constitution. (How does God do this? I've asked that question before. I suppose he must somehow get into the minds of people who are going to vote the way he wants and inspire them to vote, while simultaneously getting into the minds of people who are going to vote against his candidate and causing them to stay home. The people who subscribe to the God-appointed-the-President theory never go into detail about the mechanism of the appointment.)

But I will challenge her confident belief that God wears a MAGA cap, and that he wants the US to dominate the world he created. (Possibly, God is tired of having birds and trees and coral reefs? Maybe he wants them replaced with coal mines, oil wells, and barren wasteland and has chosen the US to carry out the grunt work involved in the conversion? I can't figure it out.)

Karen Vaughn wrote:Sometimes God uses the no-nonsense, salty sailor to get the job done. Appreciating what the man is doing doesn't mean we worship the salty sailor or even desire to be like the salty sailor. It doesn't even mean God admires the salty sailor. Maybe He just knows he's necessary for such a time as this.

I believe with all my heart that God placed that salty sailor in the White House and gave this nation one more chance in November 2016. Donald Trump is what he is. He is still the man he was before the election. And without guilt, I very much admire what that salty sailor is accomplishing.

He's not like me. That's okay with me. I don't want to be like him. I will never behave like him. I know we've NEVER had a man like him lead our nation. It's crazy and a little mind blowing at times. But I can't help admire the ability he has to act with his heart rather than a calculated, PC, think tank-screened, carefully edited script.

I still believe that is WHY he became our President and WHY he's been able to handle a landslide of adversity and STILL pass unprecedented amounts of good legislation for our country AND do great works for MANY other nations, including Israel.

I'm THRILLED with what he's doing for my nation, for the cause of Christ (whether intentional or unintentional, doesn't matter to me), and for the concept of rebuilding America and putting her FIRST. I will not be ashamed of my position because others don't see him through the same lens.

Should it matter to me if a fireman drops an f-bomb while he's pulling me from a burning building? Would I really care about what came out of his mouth in those moments? Heck no! I'd CARE about what he was DOING. He wasn't sent there to save my soul and I'm not looking to him for spiritual guidance. All I'm thinking in those moments is, "Thank you, Jesus, for sending the fireman."

I'll post this article below again for those who still might not understand me.

This man is crass. Okay. He's not careful with what he says. Okay. You feel offended that he's not a typical statesman. Okay. But he is rebuilding the nation my son died for...the nation I feared was on a fast track to becoming a hopeless cause.

Forgive me if I'm smiling.
Last edited by Upton_O_Goode on Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:16 pm

Well, Trump got what he wanted out of the NATO allies and now is saying nice things about NATO. So, expect the usual gushing from those in the media who suffer from premature ejaculation and shoot off lavish praise at the least provocation. None of them will ask what was actually achieved. Who gives a flying {!#%@} whether the allies spend more money uselessly on armaments, so they will spend less on social services? They are not reducing America's NATO contribution by so doing, since the money they are spending is not funding NATO. And they are not reducing America's bill for an insane level of weaponry; Trump is raising it to the highest level in history. But depend on it, we'll once again start to hear that Trump has Become The President, has Grown Into The Job...
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:47 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Karen Vaughn wrote:......He's not like me. ......
Heh, heh.....fact is, we are all more alike one another than we are different. The "labels" are entirely different but just how different is a Con Artist from a religious nutter? The next quote is some of the overlap.

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Karen Vaughn wrote:.....But I can't help admire the ability he has to act with his heart rather than a calculated, PC, think tank-screened, carefully edited script.
This is more true than intended. Hoomans THINK with their heads..........most evil is found in the heart.

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Karen Vaughn wrote:....But he is rebuilding the nation my son died for...the nation I feared was on a fast track to becoming a hopeless cause.
I too could forgive/overlook Trump....IF THIS WERE TRUE!!!

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Karen Vaughn wrote: Forgive me if I'm smiling.
Well, most idiots smile more than those actually aware of their circumstances......it will be the drooling and flying spittle that turns most people off.


Can I get an Amen???????
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:14 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Can I get an Amen???????



Amen! :D
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:26 pm

[quote] Karen Vaughn wrote:
....But he is rebuilding the nation my son died for...the nation I feared was on a fast track to becoming a hopeless cause.
I too could forgive/overlook Trump....IF THIS WERE TRUE!!![/quote

Why doesn't the quote thingy work???

Anyway, to be irrelevantly fair to Trump, I do keep seeing commenters make asides that "Trump is right" on many of his trade "concerns"....and perhaps even right that with the right bullying attitude we can "force" our trade competitors into leveling their side of the equation more than they have so far. The wrinkle is that by raising tariffs on Trumps voting base, it doesn't look like Trump will get a second term. China may be more damaged, but they have the option Trump does not: waiting him out.

Trade is difficult. As much philosophy as facts? The need to balance long term vs short term, national security vs the excess and greed of the 1%. Tough stuff with truth being the first casualty in any war, including trade wars.

One thing that does bug the crap out of me: the constant whining that "China forces US companies to partner with them"....in order to steal their trade secrets. There is no force at all: just short sighted American GREED of our 1%=====> JUST LOOK FOR FREAKING SAKES.

Hah, hah: its fun to see my values/bias in conflict with parsing what Trump says/does from the man himself. A good check for all of us....all the time...…...
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby TJrandom » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:45 pm

Someone needs to check to see if this note from NK is authentic, or whether Trump wrote it himself.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:46 pm

that note is exactly how to pimp Trump. It looks authentic to me.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:27 am

If irony or blatant calculated lying and hypocrisy were at all explosive......my trailer would be gone.

I can't take it much longer: Hannity calling Strzok ".... you are a partisan political hack..." //// Note, Strzok is whatever you think he is...……..but...……….so is Trump and his mouth piece or nether end: Hannity.


……..does crack me up Congress going after RT (Russian TV) for being an operative of Russia whereas I assume Faux Spews/Hannity gets licensed under some kind of "news reporting" benefit to the public ??? The fairness doctrine had its pros and cons. But sheesh: wheres the truth in labeling???? Where is the blinking BS light? My tv is broken.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby TJrandom » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:07 am

Quite interesting to see Brits protesting Trump, and I believe on a greater scale than Americans who protest the turd. So it is with some hutzpah that I suggest that they keep him on their side of the pond. Maybe put him to work on Brexit, upon which he seems to be an expert, maybe even a genius.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:20 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Karen Vaughn wrote:
....But he is rebuilding the nation my son died for...the nation I feared was on a fast track to becoming a hopeless cause.
I too could forgive/overlook Trump....IF THIS WERE TRUE!!!


Why doesn't the quote thingy work???


FIFY. (You left off the closing bracket.) I think it's worth pointing out that character matters to the Right Wing, when it's a Democrat. They just couldn't get enough of condemning Bill Clinton for his lack of character. But now that it's their guy in the White House, character has become completely irrelevant. You'd think even they would be aware of the rank hypocrisy in this. But no, they are oblivious to it.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Anyway, to be irrelevantly fair to Trump, I do keep seeing commenters make asides that "Trump is right" on many of his trade "concerns"....and perhaps even right that with the right bullying attitude we can "force" our trade competitors into leveling their side of the equation more than they have so far. The wrinkle is that by raising tariffs on Trumps voting base, it doesn't look like Trump will get a second term. China may be more damaged, but they have the option Trump does not: waiting him out.

Trade is difficult. As much philosophy as facts? The need to balance long term vs short term, national security vs the excess and greed of the 1%. Tough stuff with truth being the first casualty in any war, including trade wars.

One thing that does bug the crap out of me: the constant whining that "China forces US companies to partner with them"....in order to steal their trade secrets. There is no force at all: just short sighted American GREED of our 1%=====> JUST LOOK FOR FREAKING SAKES.

Hah, hah: its fun to see my values/bias in conflict with parsing what Trump says/does from the man himself. A good check for all of us....all the time...…...


There's an article on my newsfeed today relating how China is manufacturing cars in Detroit and thereby providing employment for some 10,000 Americans. But, as you say, Trump sees this only as an "attempt to steal" our secrets. Granted, they've done so in the past. But the Chinese are a technologically advanced nation, and I doubt if they have anything much to learn from us at this point.

But I'm still betting that Trump will do an about-face, as he did after his aides fixed up the NATO meeting so it looked like a win for Trump. (Mattis and others were kept VERY busy behind the scenes covering up Trump's blunders and papering over the differences. But Trump annexed all the credit.) But, as I asked above, what did Trump win? He got the allies to spend more on their own military. So his real win was to gain favor with the military industrial complex that continues to control our foreign policy. I don't think he got them to increase their financial contribution to running NATO (but correct me if I'm wrong on that), and it is dead certain he didn't provide any relief to American taxpayers who are bearing the burden of paying tribute to the M-I Complex. Anyway, he'll do the same thing on trade, arguing that he improved all our bilateral trade agreements and can now abolish the tariffs.

Nice insight, that China can wait Trump out. That assumes that the trade war causes him to lose the Midwest in 2020. If the Democrats had half a brain among them, they could win votes with these bread-and-butter issues in 2018 and take over the House of Representatives. But I'm always pessimistic about Democrats.
Last edited by Upton_O_Goode on Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:40 am, edited 3 times in total.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:23 am

TJrandom wrote:Someone needs to check to see if this note from NK is authentic, or whether Trump wrote it himself.


I saw that on the news feed yesterday, but it's not there today. I doubt, though, that even Trump would have the effrontery to invent a communication from KJ-U.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:30 am

Like a bull in a china shop: Trump in Britain.

Wie ein Elefant im Porzellanladen: Trump in Germany.

The NYT headline says it best: Theresa May's government is teetering; Trump gives it a shove.

Jesus H. Christ! The man comes into someone else's country and all but endorses a rival for the position of head of state, then says he told the PM how to handle Brexit and she didn't listen. (Clear implication: She's screwing it up and is incompetent.) Then he insults the capital of the country and its mayor because they trolled him with great humor. The man is even worse than Kaiser Bill!

Not even during the Viet Nam War was the American President so hated all over the West. And, for the first time ever, Americans have had to be warned to keep a low profile in Britain to protect themselves from British citizens. (Back in the 1990s, Americans were warned about going to Britain, and many stayed home. But that was because the IRA was attacking Britain.)
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Poodle » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:50 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:Like a bull in a china shop: Trump in Britain ...

Indeed he is, UOG - but no one's surprised. And no one's really annoyed because it was expected. And no one's taking too much notice apart from for the joke. Most people here know that he doesn't represent the voice of America - even most US Republicans don't believe that, I think. No harm done because we know he won't be there for too much longer.
He won't will he? TELL ME HE WON'T!!!!!

EDIT: As for Theresa May, I think she's almost finished. With her published approach to Brexit, she has now exposed herself as weak, a liar, or a candle in the wind. I can see David Davis becoming PM very shortly - I'd love it to be Boris but I don't think he can summon the necessary gravitas. To be frank, anything and anyone would probably be better than the neither here, neither there position we are now in after the publication of the surrender document.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:15 pm

Very good article on how Trump views the world:
https://www.facebook.com/510619127/posts/10157521439514128/
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:16 pm

For a our Facebook free friends:
The best, most cogent and elegantly simple explanation into the inexplicably destructive negotiating processes of the president,by Prof. David Honig of Indiana University.

Everybody I know should read this accurate and enlightening piece...

“I’m going to get a little wonky and write about Donald Trump and negotiations. For those who don't know, I'm an adjunct professor at Indiana University - Robert H. McKinney School of Law and I teach negotiations. Okay, here goes.

Trump, as most of us know, is the credited author of "The Art of the Deal," a book that was actually ghost written by a man named Tony Schwartz, who was given access to Trump and wrote based upon his observations. If you've read The Art of the Deal, or if you've followed Trump lately, you'll know, even if you didn't know the label, that he sees all dealmaking as what we call "distributive bargaining."

Distributive bargaining always has a winner and a loser. It happens when there is a fixed quantity of something and two sides are fighting over how it gets distributed. Think of it as a pie and you're fighting over who gets how many pieces. In Trump's world, the bargaining was for a building, or for construction work, or subcontractors. He perceives a successful bargain as one in which there is a winner and a loser, so if he pays less than the seller wants, he wins. The more he saves the more he wins.

The other type of bargaining is called integrative bargaining. In integrative bargaining the two sides don't have a complete conflict of interest, and it is possible to reach mutually beneficial agreements. Think of it, not a single pie to be divided by two hungry people, but as a baker and a caterer negotiating over how many pies will be baked at what prices, and the nature of their ongoing relationship after this one gig is over.

The problem with Trump is that he sees only distributive bargaining in an international world that requires integrative bargaining. He can raise tariffs, but so can other countries. He can't demand they not respond. There is no defined end to the negotiation and there is no simple winner and loser. There are always more pies to be baked. Further, negotiations aren't binary. China's choices aren't (a) buy soybeans from US farmers, or (b) don't buy soybeans. They can also (c) buy soybeans from Russia, or Argentina, or Brazil, or Canada, etc. That completely strips the distributive bargainer of his power to win or lose, to control the negotiation.

One of the risks of distributive bargaining is bad will. In a one-time distributive bargain, e.g. negotiating with the cabinet maker in your casino about whether you're going to pay his whole bill or demand a discount, you don't have to worry about your ongoing credibility or the next deal. If you do that to the cabinet maker, you can bet he won't agree to do the cabinets in your next casino, and you're going to have to find another cabinet maker.

There isn't another Canada.

So when you approach international negotiation, in a world as complex as ours, with integrated economies and multiple buyers and sellers, you simply must approach them through integrative bargaining. If you attempt distributive bargaining, success is impossible. And we see that already.

Trump has raised tariffs on China. China responded, in addition to raising tariffs on US goods, by dropping all its soybean orders from the US and buying them from Russia. The effect is not only to cause tremendous harm to US farmers, but also to increase Russian revenue, making Russia less susceptible to sanctions and boycotts, increasing its economic and political power in the world, and reducing ours. Trump saw steel and aluminum and thought it would be an easy win, BECAUSE HE SAW ONLY STEEL AND ALUMINUM - HE SEES EVERY NEGOTIATION AS DISTRIBUTIVE. China saw it as integrative, and integrated Russia and its soybean purchase orders into a far more complex negotiation ecosystem.

Trump has the same weakness politically. For every winner there must be a loser. And that's just not how politics works, not over the long run.

For people who study negotiations, this is incredibly basic stuff, negotiations 101, definitions you learn before you even start talking about styles and tactics. And here's another huge problem for us.

Trump is utterly convinced that his experience in a closely held real estate company has prepared him to run a nation, and therefore he rejects the advice of people who spent entire careers studying the nuances of international negotiations and diplomacy. But the leaders on the other side of the table have not eschewed expertise, they have embraced it. And that means they look at Trump and, given his very limited tool chest and his blindly distributive understanding of negotiation, they know exactly what he is going to do and exactly how to respond to it.

From a professional negotiation point of view, Trump isn't even bringing checkers to a chess match. He's bringing a quarter that he insists of flipping for heads or tails, while everybody else is studying the chess board to decide whether its better to open with Najdorf or Grünfeld.”

— David Honig
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:24 pm

On the other hand here is a thrilling picture of our beloved Trump arriving in London:
Image
A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:00 pm

The Strzok hearing was a joke to begin with... but what actually happened is a case study in Republicans trying to emulate Trump - there was a time when Conservatives tried to have a bit of class.

Remember that Comey said that he had to present the findings of the Wiener laptop to Congress? Because otherwise "rogue FBI members" would leak the info in a more damaging way to Clinton?
On the one hand we have proof of two anti-Trump agents who have done nothing against Trump, and on the other we have the FBI director stating that there was a dangerous anti-Clinton bias in the Bureau before the Election.
If the FBI did anything to tip the scales, it was massively in support of Trump.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:13 pm

And I just saw on my news feed that Mueller has indicted 12 Russians. I presume these are new indictments, not the ones we already knew about. Wonderful timing, just as Trump goes to see Putin.

Couple of questions: (1) Why does Trump always insist on seeing Putin without any aides at his side? Or are there other Americans in the room? In fact, does he even have his own interpreter? (2) Will Putin ask him to cancel the NATO maneuvers in the Black Sea? And will he comply? He's been asked that already and gives a very coy answer: "We'll talk about it."

Surely he knows how suspicious it looks when he defends Putin all the time, then insists on having no one around as a witness when he talks to Putin. To anybody with a modicum of skepticism, this is best explained by saying that Putin has been blackmailing him and he has to do what Putin tells him. But not his followers of course: He's Making America Great Again, and can do no wrong, as far as they are concerned.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:17 pm

What will Theresa May say about Trump's criticism of yesterday when they give their joint press conference?

Former Labour leader Ed Miliband has made a suggestion:

Ed Miliband wrote: She could say that "he and I do disagree on some things: his tearing of babies from their parents, his racist attacks on the London mayor, his lies, his admiration for dictators, and I tend to think his combover is an absurdity."


I have to admire HRH ER II. She's a very tough old lady, enduring two formal occasions with the Donald.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby TJrandom » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:04 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:And I just saw on my news feed that Mueller has indicted 12 Russians. I presume these are new indictments, not the ones we already knew about. Wonderful timing, just as Trump goes to see Putin.

Couple of questions: (1) Why does Trump always insist on seeing Putin without any aides at his side? Or are there other Americans in the room? In fact, does he even have his own interpreter? (2) Will Putin ask him to cancel the NATO maneuvers in the Black Sea? And will he comply? He's been asked that already and gives a very coy answer: "We'll talk about it."

Surely he knows how suspicious it looks when he defends Putin all the time, then insists on having no one around as a witness when he talks to Putin. To anybody with a modicum of skepticism, this is best explained by saying that Putin has been blackmailing him and he has to do what Putin tells him. But not his followers of course: He's Making America Great Again, and can do no wrong, as far as they are concerned.


Why (1)? I suspect it is so that his side deals - whatever they will be to line his pockets, will not be front page news today. Of course they eventually will become obvious. And of course, to ensure that Putin disrupts the 2018 and 2020 elections.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:07 pm

Thanks for the quote thingy. I thought I looked for that but obviously missed it.

Upton_O_Goode wrote: If the Democrats had half a brain among them, they could win votes with these bread-and-butter issues in 2018 and take over the House of Representatives.
Ain't that a shame?==election after election??? I'm as much a socialist as any of the rising crop but I would not campaign ((for the Presnedent)) based on that. Too many deplorables and not enough lube. Something past mental defective to even mention Biden as a candidate...talk about not seeing the horizon for being in a rut.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:26 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote: The best, most cogent and elegantly simple explanation into the inexplicably destructive negotiating processes of the president,by Prof. David Honig of Indiana University...…….
Trump has the same weakness politically. For every winner there must be a loser. And that's just not how politics works, not over the long run.

A nice pedantic review from the ivory tower...…...but....blinded by its own unstated assumptions. This is EXACTLY HOW POLITICS WORKS...…...when it is failing "in the long run." No reason at all to posit/assume that politics is or should always going to work in the long run...…...this is why civilizations fail and pass on into history. I'm sure the Prof knows this...better than any of us....just showing the unstated bias that puts the emPHAsis on what he says elsewhere. THERE IS NO REASON to assume things will work out in the long run. POLITICS WORKS: for the long and short run, to the good and the bad.

Contra: an evil GENIUS could do much of what Trump is doing (given cherry picking what I see and not knowing what Trump is doing in secret) all to the ultimate benefit of USA. I just don't think Trump is a Genius and therefore he is not going to do what is necessary to do to capture the benefits of his risky play. I don't think I am wrong BECAUSE Trump has a: track record. Past performance being the best predictor of future performance. aka: we are all screwed.
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