America! One Shudders at the Thought!

[numan]

'

This is a story from the era of Good Queen Victoria, of blessèd memory. God Save The Queen!

On one occasion, Sarah Bernhardt was playing the rôle of Queen Cleopatra in Shakespeare's "Antony and Cleopatra." The play had reached the point where the messenger brings the news of Antony's betrayal of Cleopatra and his marriage to Octavia. Sarah Bernhardt shrieks with anger and despair; she throws herself on her divan, weeps, starts up, tears her garments. She takes up a knife and attacks the messenger as the bearer of evil tidings; as he runs away, she smashes the furniture, tears down the arras from the wall and, amid the wreckage of her court, she collapses in a moaning, convulsive heap on the stage. The curtain sweeps down, and from the audience is heard the quavering voice of a good British matron, speaking to her friend: "How different, how very different from the home life of our own dear Queen!"

I think this story serves as an excellent metaphor for the difference between the Americans and the English.

.

[Chachacha]

I see you have forgiven the English their transgressions, so there is a possibility that, someday, your obssession with Americans will subside, and you will forgive theirs as well.

[numan]

'
As a tongue-tip taste of the difference between the U.S.A. and Canada, consider the Yukon Gold Rush of 1898:

Excerpts from the Yukon Fact Book

Approximately 16,000 people lived in Dawson itself, with about another 15,000 working and living on the nearby creeks. Elsewhere in North America, boomtowns linked to gold rushes had become lawless and violent places. But the presence of the North West Mounted Police ensured that the mostly American throngs of prospectors kept the peace. In 1898, there was not a single murder in Dawson and very little theft. No doubt this was the result of a law that forbade the carrying of sidearms.

Just across the border, in Skagway, Alaska, under U.S. jurisdiction, in a town about as big as Dawson, there were more than a hundred murders, and indescribable lawlessness.

So, as usual,  America Bad, Canada Good!

All through history, Americans have been inveterate liars and hypocrites. In general, there are only two things which Americans hold sacred: property and freedom. They honoured property by stealing everything they could from the Indians. They honoured freedom by holding millions of their fellow countrymen in the most horrible conditions of slavery.  And  they weasel and twist and lie in order not to admit the obvious truth. What sick, sick people!

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[numan]

I see you have forgiven the English their transgressions, so there is a possibility that, someday, your obssession with Americans will subside, and you will forgive theirs as well.

Let the Americans stop murdering people all over the world; let them end their occupation of other countries by their 800-odd foreign military bases; let them build a society at home that is not a vicious system of exploitation of the majority of the American people; let them end their violent and hysterical behaviour. Then I will treat them like friends and brothers.

Until then, they are just Nazis to me.

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[bigtim]

Until then, they are just Nazis to me.
.

That is just fine.  You are a ranting racist.  And like all racists you make gross and inaccurate generalizations and condemn entire washes of people with one broad hate filled stroke.  You’ve shown your mettle and it doth be weak and lacking.

[numan]

'
As in the case of Nazi Germany, I make a distinction between the evil American ruling class and the ordinary, powerless  people of America.

However, if you make a case that the Nazi-era Germans share some guilt for their complicity with their rulers, and for their acceptance of their rulers' evil policies, then ordinary Americans also bear some guilt for their sins of commission and sins of omission.

After the War was over, ordinary Germans were forced to go through the extermination camps and directly face what their country had done. I favour a similar policy toward ordinary Americans, and to some small extent, my postings are a part of that policy to force Americans to see what they really are.

.

[Chachacha]

'
As in the case of Nazi Germany, I make a distinction between the evil American ruling class and the ordinary, powerless  people of America.

However, if you make a case that the Nazi-era Germans share some guilt for their complicity with their rulers, and for their acceptance of their rulers' evil policies, then ordinary Americans also bear some guilt for their sins of commission and sins of omission.

After the War was over, ordinary Germans were forced to go through the extermination camps and directly face what their country had done. I favour a similar policy toward ordinary Americans, and to some small extent, my postings are a part of that policy to force Americans to see what they really are.

.

Excellent, a world tour, I'm ready!

[numan]

'
So your response to the crimes of your country is a facile joke.

Clearly, a lot of American noses will need to be thoroughly ground down into a lot of  their own sh:t.

.

[brauneyz]

'
So your response to the crimes of your country is a facile joke.

Clearly, a lot of American noses will need to be thoroughly ground down into a lot of  their own sh:t.

.

It's OK, numan, you can say {!#%@}.  Really, I'm quite expert in all matters of {!#%@}, and these ravings of yours, yup .... they definitely qualify as {!#%@}.  Though I must admit, your {!#%@} has gotten funnier once you became an equal opportunity offender.  You just hate everybody!  

[OlegTheBatty]

'
So your response to the crimes of your country is a facile joke.

Clearly, a lot of American noses will need to be thoroughly ground down into a lot of  their own sh:t.

.

It's OK, numan, you can say {!#%@}.  Really, I'm quite expert in all matters of {!#%@}, and these ravings of yours, yup .... they definitely qualify as {!#%@}.  Though I must admit, your {!#%@} has gotten funnier once you became an equal opportunity offender.  You just hate everybody!  

 He even hates me, apparently because I don't hate you.

[Chachacha]

'
So your response to the crimes of your country is a facile joke.

Clearly, a lot of American noses will need to be thoroughly ground down into a lot of  their own sh:t.

.

It's OK, numan, you can say {!#%@}.  Really, I'm quite expert in all matters of {!#%@}, and these ravings of yours, yup .... they definitely qualify as {!#%@}.  Though I must admit, your {!#%@} has gotten funnier once you became an equal opportunity offender.  You just hate everybody!  

 He even hates me, apparently because I don't hate you.

Yer either with 'im or agin 'im.

[OlegTheBatty]

Its too bad the title bar doesn't accept enough characters for the full title of this thread which is

America! One Shudders at the Thought of Another Numan Rant

[Paul]

Its too bad the title bar doesn't accept enough characters for the full title of this thread which is

America! One Shudders at the Thought of Another Numan Rant

He is stuck in the 60's. Once a Hippie always a Hipster. Peace out.

[Chachacha]

Its too bad the title bar doesn't accept enough characters for the full title of this thread which is

America! One Shudders at the Thought of Another Numan Rant

[Chachacha]

.[/quote]

'
As in the case of Nazi Germany, I make a distinction between the evil American ruling class and the ordinary, powerless  people of America.

However, if you make a case that the Nazi-era Germans share some guilt for their complicity with their rulers, and for their acceptance of their rulers' evil policies, then ordinary Americans also bear some guilt for their sins of commission and sins of omission.

After the War was over, ordinary Germans were forced to go through the extermination camps and directly face what their country had done. I favour a similar policy toward ordinary Americans, and to some small extent, my postings are a part of that policy to force Americans to see what they really are.

Excellent, a world tour, I'm ready!

[/

'
So your response to the crimes of your country is a facile joke.

Clearly, a lot of American noses will need to be thoroughly ground down into a lot of their own sh:t.
.

I don't know what you're capable of, or if you incite others to violence, so I really shouldn't poke fun, but I couldn't resist.

[numan]

I don't know what you're capable of, or if you incite others to violence, so I really shouldn't poke fun, but I couldn't resist.

It is you Yankees who are the murderers, torturers and exploiters.  I left your god-forsaken terror-state precisely because I was non-violent.

However, I am quite happy to hold up a mirror so you can see your own ugly faces.

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[Chachacha]

I don't know what you're capable of, or if you incite others to violence, so I really shouldn't poke fun, but I couldn't resist.

It is you Yankees who are the murderers, torturers and exploiters.  I left your god-forsaken terror-state precisely because I was non-violent.

However, I am quite happy to hold up a mirror so you can see your own ugly faces.

.

Okay, Buckeroo, I'm taking my ugly face and very slowly, making no sudden movements, backing towards, and out, the door.

[Lance Kennedy]

I can, to a degree, understand Numan's rant.  There is a lot wrong with America.   However, there is also a lot good about America.  My own country, New Zealand, has a lot wrong with it too.   And a lot of good in it.
Have I said that before?

To fully appreciate any country, whether the USA, NZ, or Chad, you have to appreciate both sides.

I love the fact that the USA promotes individual personal liberty.  I love the fact that the USA is carrying out scientific research to carry humanity into a new and brighter future.   I love the way Americans celebrate success. I hate the fact that the USA wages war on Iraq and Afghanistan.   I hate the American gun culture.  I hate the American religious right.

Overall, what the heck.  I love everybody!

[OlegTheBatty]

I can, to a degree, understand Numan's rant.  There is a lot wrong with America.   However, there is also a lot good about America.  My own country, New Zealand, has a lot wrong with it too.   And a lot of good in it.
Have I said that before?

To fully appreciate any country, whether the USA, NZ, or Chad, you have to appreciate both sides.

I love the fact that the USA promotes individual personal liberty.  I love the fact that the USA is carrying out scientific research to carry humanity into a new and brighter future.   I love the way Americans celebrate success. I hate the fact that the USA wages war on Iraq and Afghanistan.   I hate the American gun culture.  I hate the American religious right.

Overall, what the heck.  I love everybody!

There's a lot of tendency to equate the characteristics of a people with the characteristics of their ruling elite, which is frequently an error.
Most people are doing the best they can with the resources they have to mitigate the bad aspects of their ruling elite (of course, there is much disagreement on what the bad aspects are).

[brauneyz]

'
So your response to the crimes of your country is a facile joke.

Clearly, a lot of American noses will need to be thoroughly ground down into a lot of  their own sh:t.

.

It's OK, numan, you can say {!#%@}.  Really, I'm quite expert in all matters of {!#%@}, and these ravings of yours, yup .... they definitely qualify as {!#%@}.  Though I must admit, your {!#%@} has gotten funnier once you became an equal opportunity offender.  You just hate everybody!  

 He even hates me, apparently because I don't hate you.

Probably not the defense you want to use, Oly, but I appreciate the sentiment.  

There's a lot of tendency to equate the characteristics of a people with the characteristics of their ruling elite, which is frequently an error.
Most people are doing the best they can with the resources they have to mitigate the bad aspects of their ruling elite (of course, there is much disagreement on what the bad aspects are).

Thank you for this.  For those of us who feel pretty displaced in our own country, it is nice that someone recognizes our pain.

And to Lance, also a thank you.  In all my dealings with you, I recall you being fair, enumerating both the good and the bad, as I have always tried to do with other nations.  Of course, not traveling much outside the US and Canada leaves me talking only in hypotheticals, and I try never to generalize about a peoples.  Policies are fair game, but lumping all folks under the same umbrella because of their country's political structure always seemed a little goofy to me (yes, numan, that is aimed directly at you!)

Peace and love, my fellow humans.

[bigtim]

I've spent time in Mexico (while ago though...) and a couple of day trips into Canada.  Folks are folks.  Everyone is trying to make a living, take care of their family, enjoy the time they have.

I suppose one could say Mexicans are evil because the government is corrupt and the drug cartels butcher innocent people.  There are towns in Mexico where if a girl walks alone she'll come in missing.  I suppose we could say that Islam is a disease and all Muslims are evil because they torture and kill, well, basically anybody (mostly their fellow Muslims though) for some point.  I suppose we could say that all Italians are child rapists because the Catholic Church seems to have a penchant for that... and I suppose we can say that ALL Catholics are horrid monsters for the people that have been tortured and killed over the centuries.

Sure, hate filled bigots will do that.

But when you talk to people and get to know them you realize we're pretty much all the same.

[Chachacha]

All good points.  Sadly, fanatics rarely recognize what is bad about what they love or what is good about what they hate, and even when they do, it doesn't stop them from being fanatics.

[Chancellor Bigsby]

...Until then, they are just Nazis to me.

.

     Numan!  (hey, I sound like Jerry Seinfeld)  We are not Nazis!  The Germans exterminated their purported enemies themselves!  While we do dabble in the occasional conflict in the interests of Empire, America historically slaughters innocents by proxy.  I resent you characterizing my government as acting like Nazi Germany.  It would (generally) never do that!  We just support regimes that do--BIG DIFFERENCE, man!

     I suggest that if you want to rail against the United States with impunity, don't always resort to hyperbole.  Really, there is no reason to do so (we've done enough heinous things, after all).  I've agreed with most of what you've posted, but don't appreciate you allowing yourself (and, by extension, your sentiments) to be labeled as "racist" and "fanatic."  There is a lot of truth in what you say--and no, I am not going to follow that statement with an equivocation.*  I just wish you wouldn't discredit those beliefs by decidedly seeking to insult people in the process.  That precludes earnest debate.  

    Of course, most Americans will assiduously avoid coming to grips with reality AT ALL COSTS.  So maybe your approach is to try and pierce through the pervading obliviousness by being especially offensive.  While I can understand this reasoning, I disagree with it as a strategy on this forum.  Document what you're talking about, instead of constantly unleashing unsubstantiated diatribes.  They may be warranted (we are in many ways an evil empire, after all), but people will just tune you out.  Your gold-rush  anecdote was superb, for example.  I really enjoyed it.  

    In the meantime, if you'll promise not to call me a Nazi I'll confide in you that I have a lot of respect for Canada.  The United States could learn a lot from your country.

Regards,

The Chancellor

*I'm glad New Zealand isn't a world power.  

[brauneyz]

Chancellor, please note that I also read 'numan' with a Seinfeld accent.  

As for encouraging the monotonous diatribe this thread has become ... please reread my post above.  There are many Americans upset with actions of previous (and current) administrations, but denouncing entire groups of human beings based on zip code will get us nowhere.  We should all be advised to confine our criticisms to policy, not people.  I realize that will probably cut the amount of chatter here significantly, but it will prove interesting to see just who can rise to the challenge, no?  

[numan]

I love the fact that the USA is carrying out scientific research to carry humanity into a new and brighter future.

My, oh my! I thought that sort of intellectual pablum went out of style in the 1930's!

"Science" was bought, lock, stock and barrel, decades ago by the moneyed interests. That is why there have been virtually no new basic break-throughs in the past 60 years.

If there is money going to "science," you can bet your penultimate bottom dollar that it is there because someone hopes to make a buck off of it --- not to benefit humanity,  Very much the reverse!

.

[Chancellor Bigsby]

Dear brauneyz,

    I did reread your post and found myself agreeing with it.  I would note, however, that as a whole Americans have often sanctioned the most ignominious actions of our government.  The fact that you and I may be repulsed by some of the things perpetrated in our name does not negate that often a majority of Americans actually agree with, say, fighting Communism at all costs (even if it means overthrowing democratically-elected governments).  

    I point this out because I think there are instances where Numan (heehee; I want to go watch some episodes now) can generalize about Americans without running afoul.  The problem is that he does it indiscriminately and with unsurpassed eagerness to offend.  

    Anyway, we should absolutely begin discussions with actual policies.  Extending it to the people who supported the policy is permissible if relevant, evenhanded, and tempered by facts.  

Regards,

Chancellor

[numan]

America historically slaughters innocents by proxy.  I resent you characterizing my government as acting like Nazi Germany.  It would (generally) never do that!  We just support regimes that do--BIG DIFFERENCE, man!

     I suggest that if you want to rail against the United States with impunity, don't always resort to hyperbole.  Really, there is no reason to do so (we've done enough heinous things, after all).  I've agreed with most of what you've posted, but don't appreciate you allowing yourself (and, by extension, your sentiments) to be labeled as "racist" and "fanatic."  

Essentially, I agree with what you have written, though the Americans often do their own slaughtering themselves, notably in Vietnam and Iraq -- and, of course, of each other in the USA!

I think you should go back over what I have actually written, rather than what you think I have written! I have made sufficient qualifications and exceptions to exonerate me of charges of racism and tarring every American with the same brush. It is rather other posters who have deliberately ignored these qualifications and resorted to hyperbole and misrepresentation toward me!

Of course, most Americans will assiduously avoid coming to grips with reality AT ALL COSTS.  So maybe your approach is to try and pierce through the pervading obliviousness by being especially offensive.

There is some truth in what you say, though I reject the phrase "especially" offensive. I am being just offensive enough to adequately deal with the very real crimes and folly emanating from the U. S. of A.  The propaganda and brainwashing that inundates the USA renders most Americans stunned, brain-dead quasi-zombies -- one can get through to these people only by galvanic shocks.

"In this world, if you do not say a thing in an irritating way, you may as well not say it at all, since nobody will trouble themselves about anything that does not trouble them. The attention given to a criticism is in direct proportion to its indigestibility."
--- George Bernard Shaw

Your gold-rush  anecdote was superb, for example.

I know.

I'm glad New Zealand isn't a world power.

Yes, that is a saving grace, isn't it? Though it doesn't seem to work for Australia. My friends, who disparaged Australia, were equally laudatory toward New Zealand. It seems to be an exceptionally good country: almost up there with the Scandinavian countries, but with a better climate.

I have heard, though, that in recent years it has turned to the same vomit from America which the Australians eagerly lap up.

.

[numan]

For those of us who feel pretty displaced in our own country, it is nice that someone recognizes our pain.

To the extent that you can form an objective assessment of your own country, you have my sympathy.

As a former American, I know how difficult it can be for someone who does not "enjoy freedom" in the manner dictated by the boob-tube.

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[numan]

Most people are doing the best they can with the resources they have to mitigate the bad aspects of their ruling elite....

So you admit that you are suffering under the illegitimate rule of tyrants?

Good! You are making progress!

.

[brauneyz]

Most people are doing the best they can with the resources they have to mitigate the bad aspects of their ruling elite....

So you admit that you are suffering under the illegitimate rule of tyrants?

Good! You are making progress!

.

What?  Canada's ruled by tyrants, too?  

[numan]

What?  Canada's ruled by tyrants, too?   :shock

Of course! They have a lot less power than the American vermin, so they do a lot less damage.

.

[OlegTheBatty]

What?  Canada's ruled by tyrants, too?   :shock

Of course! They have a lot less power than the American vermin, so they do a lot less damage.

.

Yep, definitely minor leaguers in comparison. Mind you Steve would love to make it to the show, but he has the wrong citizenship. The religious right just ain't got the political clout here. Outside of Alberta, they are pretty much irrelevant.

[Lance Kennedy]

Speaking as a New Zealander and about my own country.

Yes, there are good points.

1. New Zealand is one of the least religious nations on planet Earth.
2.  Last year, we were listed as the least corrupt nation on planet Earth.
3.  We are too small to threaten anyone.
4.  Our race relations are pretty good.

There are bad points.

1.  We have a terrible 'tall poppy' syndrome as part of our make up.
2.  We suffer selective blindness, and terrible parochialism .
3.  We have an awful lot of stupid people, and stupid policies, such as refusing to consider nuclear power.
4.  On matters such as race, or any politically correct issue, we bend over backwards so far that we end up sniffing our own backsides.

However, it is my home and I love it.

I have visited the USA several times, and met an awful lot of Americans.   As a people, their major characteristic is variability.   America has every kind of person you can imagine, from the most attractive (probably people like brauneyz) with hearts of gold, and hospitality oozing out of every pore, to those who meet the full description of the 'ugly American'.

For this reason, numan is absolutely in the wrong.   You cannot generalise about Americans.  Whatever you say will be wrong.

[numan]

1.  We have a terrible 'tall poppy' syndrome as part of our make up

I see that you have read your Herodotus.

For this reason, numan is absolutely in the wrong.   You cannot generalise about Americans.  Whatever you say will be wrong.

Pardon me. What you have just written is a generalization about Americans.  Therefore, it is wrong.

.

[Lance Kennedy]

I am generalising when I say you should not generalise??

OK.  Makes little sense to me, but no point arguing.
Let me just reiterate that I have met a lot of very wonderful people who happen to be Americans.

[brauneyz]

I am generalising when I say you should not generalise??

OK.  Makes little sense to me, but no point arguing.
Let me just reiterate that I have met a lot of very wonderful people who happen to be Americans.

Thank you Lance.  I think numan is having a hard time keeping his hateful arguments straight.  It was pretty obvious to me that you were making observations about the variety of Americans you have personally met or interacted with, not generalizing that we all are sugar and spice simply by virtue of the soil we walk on.

[numan]

'

People here should study a little logic, or else they won't be able to understand my beautiful and subtle wit.

.

[Matthew Ellard]

Speaking as a New Zealander and about my own country.

(adjusted by Matthew Ellard who is Australian)

There are bad points.

1.  We have Australia next door
2.  If we have a "good" rock band Australia claims it as Australian
3.  If we have a "bad" rock band Australia tells everyone it come from New Zealand.
4.  Australian jokes about New Zealanders are almost as bad as the New Zealand jokes about Australians.
5.  Australia is still next door  

However, it is my home and I love it.

( Secret: Well even I admit New Zealand is socially more advanced than Australia.....that's why we have to steal their rock-bands!   Shihad, Wetta, Split Enz, Dragon, Mi-Sex, Proud Scum, etc  ).

[vanderpoel]

'People here should study a little logic, or else they won't be able to understand my beautiful and subtle wit..

Here folks, this may help:                              

[Lance Kennedy]

Matthew

Thanks for that.
A mark of a person who is truly emotionally 'with it', is that he can make jokes about himself (or his own country) and laugh at them.
Appreciated.