Individualism, Anyone?

Where no two people are likely to agree.
Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5430
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Individualism, Anyone?

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:11 am

President Obama has decided to escalate the war in Afghanistan to the tune of hundreds of billions of more dollars spent there, and at the same time spend hundreds of billions dollars trying to revamp the bureaucrtic mess of Medicare, Medicaid, and the whole government-regulated hospital/medical care system. When the bureaucratic mess called the Soviet Union took on the expense of waging war in Afghanistan it bankrupted itself to the point that there was no more food in the stores, and Gorbachev finally threw in the towel on the empire.

Should the US government send more or less troops to the Mid-East? Should it subsidize certain new prescription drugs and to what extent? Fortunately, individualists don't have to concern themselves about such matters, since we're not too interested in the nuts and bolts of collectivist-capitalism or capitalist-collectivism, and we know that our efforts at input are not going to change anything, anyway. So, all we have to worry about is trying to keep as much of our own money as possible out of the hands of governments, while at the same time trying to recoup as much benefit as possible for ourselves in goods and services. We can behave just like everybody else without the aggravation of trying to decide which politicians represent the lesser evil and spending time and money supporting them. We can watch more soccer, maybe study Chinese, and just worry about taking care of ourselves after the system collapses of it's own weight.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
fromthehills
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9925
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:01 am
Location: Woostone

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by fromthehills » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:06 pm

If the system does collapse, the time you invested in studying Chinese won't go to waste.

I think Obama's plan of ramping up the war in Afghanistan is going to be his failure, hopefully he doesn't take us down with him. I had no hopes of him failing, it won't open the doors for a third party. Anyway, we'll see how much longer the Obama worshipers will hold on.

User avatar
landrew
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8142
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by landrew » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:23 pm

fromthehills wrote:If the system does collapse, the time you invested in studying Chinese won't go to waste.

I think Obama's plan of ramping up the war in Afghanistan is going to be his failure, hopefully he doesn't take us down with him. I had no hopes of him failing, it won't open the doors for a third party. Anyway, we'll see how much longer the Obama worshipers will hold on.

You can't win a war unless you win it. The Soviets wasted a lot of money, time and people in Afghanistan, the Americans did the same in Vietnam, because they conducted it in a very limited way, always allowing the enemy to escape and learn from their mistakes, becoming a greater and greater threat. As long as troops have to live under very limited rules of engagement, the enemy will have a field day exploiting those limitations.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

Chachacha
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 1:07 am
Custom Title: Irrational Skeptic

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by Chachacha » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:35 pm

Excuse me, Tom, did I misread your post, or are you proposing that we be invidualists by behaving like everyone else?






* poke poke * :P No answer needed, just razzing on ya!

User avatar
brauneyz
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3767
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:13 pm
Location: Everywhere, USA

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by brauneyz » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:18 pm

fromthehills wrote:If the system does collapse, the time you invested in studying Chinese won't go to waste.

I think Obama's plan of ramping up the war in Afghanistan is going to be his failure, hopefully he doesn't take us down with him. I had no hopes of him failing, it won't open the doors for a third party. Anyway, we'll see how much longer the Obama worshipers will hold on.

Well, the wars, and the healthcare reform fustercluck are neck and neck. Ideas for a tiebreaker? Complete economic collapse anyone?

(Does O have any fans left? :shock: )
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ~ Bertrand de Jouvenel

User avatar
landrew
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8142
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by landrew » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:32 pm

brauneyz wrote:
fromthehills wrote:If the system does collapse, the time you invested in studying Chinese won't go to waste.

I think Obama's plan of ramping up the war in Afghanistan is going to be his failure, hopefully he doesn't take us down with him. I had no hopes of him failing, it won't open the doors for a third party. Anyway, we'll see how much longer the Obama worshipers will hold on.

Well, the wars, and the healthcare reform fustercluck are neck and neck. Ideas for a tiebreaker? Complete economic collapse anyone?

(Does O have any fans left? :shock: )

The brutal reality about wars, is that you either have to be fully in or fully out. Sometimes you don't have a choice about being in one, but once you are, lack of commitment can be fatal. Most other initiatives for a leader are the same way.

I'm not sure if Obama is short of commitment or follow-through, but I think his fortunes will mostly ride on whether it turns out he is or not.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
brauneyz
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3767
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:13 pm
Location: Everywhere, USA

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by brauneyz » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:35 pm

landrew wrote:
I'm not sure if Obama is short of commitment or follow-through, but I think his fortunes will mostly ride on whether it turns out he is or not.

I think that is absolutely true, but it's not really his fortunes I worry about. :frown:
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ~ Bertrand de Jouvenel

User avatar
landrew
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8142
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by landrew » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:49 pm

brauneyz wrote:
landrew wrote:
I'm not sure if Obama is short of commitment or follow-through, but I think his fortunes will mostly ride on whether it turns out he is or not.

I think that is absolutely true, but it's not really his fortunes I worry about. :frown:

Well, he is the man at the controls, so his fortunes will turn on how ours turn out, and ours will turn on the job he does.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5430
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:04 pm

FTH,
Obama, Obama,
He's our man.
If he can't fail,
Palin can.

We know a couple, one's from Venezuela and the other Puerto Rico. They both speak fluent English, but their three bright young kids aren't learning Spanish. It has occurred to me that if they spoke Spanish at home, and then invested in teaching the kids Chinese, that the kids would probably have it made no matter where they or what they choose to do.

Llandy,
What good does winning a war do? The US has the expense of thousands of troops stationed in Japan and Germany, but trades with Vietnam with no troops stationed there.

Cousin Brauney,
Sorry, it does seem a bit ironic, if not downright ridiculous.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
landrew
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8142
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by landrew » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:13 pm

Tom-Palven wrote:FTH,

Llandy,
What good does winning a war do? The US has the expense of thousands of troops stationed in Japan and Germany, but trades with Vietnam with no troops stationed there.

Leadership is an active role, not a passive one, therefore a leader's actions are meant to succeed totally, not partially. Analogous to a war, most government programs accomplish nothing, but waste time and money if they can't succeed; partial successes don't count for much in politics most of the time.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5430
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:21 pm

Locke, Rousseau, Hobbes, and their "Social Contract" be damned; thank you Jeezus, he ain't my leader.

The paragraph below is from the essay, No Treason, 1869, by Lysander Spooner:

The ostensible supporters of the Constitution, like the ostensible supporters of most other governments, are made up of three classes, viz.: 1. Knaves, a numerous and active class, who see in the government an instrument which they can use for their own aggrandizement or wealth. 2. Dupes — a large class, no doubt — each of whom, because he is allowed one voice out of millions in deciding what he may do with his own person and his own property, and because he is permitted to have the same voice in robbing, enslaving, and murdering others, that others have in robbing, enslaving, and murdering himself, is stupid enough to imagine that he is a "free man," a "sovereign"; that this is "a free government"; "a government of equal rights," "the best government on earth," and such like absurdities. 3. A class who have some appreciation of the evils of government, but either do not see how to get rid of them, or do not choose to so far sacrifice their private interests as to give themselves seriously and earnestly to the work of making a change.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 13179
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by JO 753 » Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:04 am

Tom-Palven wrote:President Obama has decided to escalate the war in Afghanistan...


Makes perfect sense to me.

Its like trying to get a 747 off the ground. Going 100 mph aint gunu do it. If you think saving fuel is the most important thing, you end up wasting all that you do use because you run out of runway. And unlike this analogy, you can't see where the 'runway' endz in this case, so the consequences can be seriously dire.

What gets me about all the so called 'conservativez' iz that they oppose everything Obama duz. He could give a speech about the benefits of breathing and they'd suffocate themselvez!

I suppoze you coud call me an Obama fan, but keep a few facts in mind when you disagree with him:

1. Hez very intelligent.
2. He haz more facts about the issuez than we do.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5430
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:36 am

I agree that President Obama is very intelligent and has a lot of facts. By the same token, Robert McNamara, Secretary of Defense under Kennedy and Johnson, was supposedly brilliant and had of bunch of supposedly brilliant staffers called Whiz Kids at the Pentagon. What went wrong? What's going wrong in the Mid-East? There's an article today at LewRockwell.com titled You're Doing One Hell of a Job in Central Asia, Barack! by Jack Douglas, which I think might explain the situation.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
landrew
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8142
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by landrew » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:39 am

Tom-Palven wrote:I agree that President Obama is very intelligent and has a lot of facts. By the same token, Robert McNamara, Secretary of Defense under Kennedy and Johnson, was supposedly brilliant and had of bunch of supposedly brilliant staffers called Whiz Kids at the Pentagon. What went wrong? What's going wrong in the Mid-East? There's an article today at LewRockwell.com titled You're Doing One Hell of a Job in Central Asia, Barack! by Jack Douglas, which I think might explain the situation.

Is being brilliant politically the same thing as providing brilliantly good government?

I guess it depends whether what they say is more important than what they do.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5430
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:47 am

Hitler might have been politically brilliant, and even George Bush was probably politically astute, but good government is, to me, an oxymoron.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
landrew
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8142
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by landrew » Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:39 am

Tom-Palven wrote:Hitler might have been politically brilliant, and even George Bush was probably politically astute, but good government is, to me, an oxymoron.

Less government is always better than more government,

but better of course, than no government.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
fromthehills
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9925
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:01 am
Location: Woostone

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by fromthehills » Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:44 am

Tom-Palven wrote:Hitler might have been politically brilliant, and even George Bush was probably politically astute, but good government is, to me, an oxymoron.


What I find funny is how George, and the others, rant about evil big government, when they are part of it. Of course they want less government on their finances, but they still shovel more government on the rest of us. How this is lost on their constituency, I'll never figure out. Where I see the down side to no government is guys like Madoff [SP?], and the Enron gang, etc. will do whatever they can to fill that vacuum. It would quickly turn from utopian anarchy to a feudal system.

Bush would certainly go for private police organizations, such as Blackwater, because they serve the guy with the checkbook. Our police are not perfect, and most don't have my respect, though some do, but at least they are supposed to be enforcing laws that society, as a whole, has indirectly agreed upon. Private police departments, that would rise in the case of anarchy, look at the Pinkertons,[SP? again] would only serve the interests of their employers.

As an idealist, I would like no government what-so-ever, but as a realist, the only human nature I trust with that is my own. My guess is that, deep down, none of us want government for ourselves, but could stand having rules for the other guy. I do however think that government should be more focused on protecting our rights, rather than taking them away.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5430
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:05 pm

FTH wrote: "What I find funny is how George, and the others, rant about evil big government, when they are part of it."

As I've mentioned before, the great conservative hero RR said he would cut government and, specifically, abolish the Fed Depts of Energy and Education, in his stump speeches, but when elected President, he increased the size of both agencies and the size of the Federal Government, just as he increased the size of the government of California when he was governor. Was he sincere when he made his remarks, or just another lying politician? Does it make any difference? Conservatives still regard him as a great hero because he said the right things.

Without government Bernie Madoff might have been shot like Mussolini, hung by his feet next to a gas station, and left to rot as a warning to others, the treatment, IMHO, George Bush deserves. Then, again, anarchism could lead to warlordism, or whatever they have in Northern Pakistan, where there is allegedly no government. But I think it was tranquil there before the US started helping out Pakistan with military aid, etc. Another favorite line of Reagan's on the stump was "The scariest words in the English language are "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you."
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
landrew
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8142
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by landrew » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:00 pm

I like best the analogy of government as referee, only acting to keep things fair, but not interfering into the game to change the outcomes.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 13179
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by JO 753 » Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:32 am

Thats wut guvernment iz supozd tu do. But it also haz to make the rulez to begin with. If it makes flawed rulez, the game goez bad.

Wut we hav iz like a game uv Monopoly with a rule that the banker gets to take money for himself every time he conducts a tranzaction. The predictable rezult will be that the banker alwayz winz.

PatInTheHat
New Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:49 am
Custom Title: Major Goofball
Location: InThe Mighty BlueGrass of Falmouth in the Commonwealth of Kentucky

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by PatInTheHat » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:33 am

Bad government / good government & less government vs. big government.......

I'm not a fan of big government, but as long as corporate interests, "K" Street lobbyists and those better than you & me holier then thou's like those "family" types on "C" Street are pulling the most of the strings, it's always going to be bad government.
A big liberal leaning government is the only way the average American is going to get any kind of bang for their buck (crap, I think I now owe the defense industry a percentage)...okay, more like a little pop, but at least it's something...maybe just a filled pothole, but something.
Besides, this thing is a living fire breathing monster of a beast that practically creates it's own weather, and as we all know, big rich boys gotta have really big powerful toys.

I use to be a card carrying libertarian, when I was young and full of fanciful visions of equality (financial, social, jurisprudence, yadda yada blah blah) in my head.
BIG business, greed driven ideology, and the far right morally righteous nutbags, who somehow became embraced by it, set me straight on that.
Until big corporate interests are somehow stopped from actually writing legislation, and buying our elected officials like boxes of doughnuts, we don't live in the good 'ol US of A, we work for USA Inc..

This crap of constantly fundraising the huge monies it takes in order for politicians to win their jobs back (public service just don't mean what it use to now does it) has to end.
How is anybody's guess, all I hear is talk talk talk...but only at the most appropriate of times..often just before November.
America really does get the candidates elected they deserve I suppose.
Who really gets involved, I mean most people vote who's name they see the most on tv, and on posters stapled on poles and placards stuck in nicest manicured lawns at the local level...simple name recognition ain't a theory.
And on the national level it's a two or three ring circus without a ringmaster...the media (all of them) just eat it up and cash the huge checks.
Pundits have become viruses (and I love good punditry) with no real regard to the issues, just how much face time they can garner.
The more outrageous, the more face time, the more face time, the higher their public speaking fee quote and chances of grabbing a book deal, or whatever their false policy concerns can be cashed in for serious ducats.

Using public money should be the first step in campaign reform I think, and the FCC needs to get a handle on some broadcast issues.
I mean it sold out to huge corporations with the Telecommunication act of '96, coincidentally the same year those newly created media conglomerates started chuckin' out nearly $11 million from '96-'98 to defeat bills mandating free airtime for candidates.
They sure got what they paid for, and the investment has paid out beautifully! Especially now, since the FCC has just started selling the airwaves.
That's right..did you get your cut?... hmm, I wonder how long before broadcast air waves become privatized.
Then we can have candidates brought to us by junk like Hamburger Helper in the mid west, some froo froo fat free soy latte' joints out on the coasts, and Depends & Viagra in Florida & Arizona..who am I kidding, Viagra (& Cilais of course) is definitely a national sponsor.

If we can cut off the reprehensible and underhanded corporate money pipelines, the government has to get smaller, and the politicians would have to actually work for the people, and not their board of directors.
Is all that possible...eh, but I won't hold my breath in my lifetime, I'll do that when I'm dead and can concentrate on it better.
I'm all for bringing back the stocks (the uncomfortable ones), to be placed right in the center of "K" Street, "C" Street & Wall Street (tar, feathers and a good solid rail would probably still be frowned on), but really serious campaign finance reform would satisfy my civilized nature..for a start.
If you want to live life on your own terms, you have to be willing to crash & burn.

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 13179
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by JO 753 » Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:17 am

Ye, campaign on the brain iz a major cauze uv krappy gummit, but the 2 party system iz just az much to blame. Its like having 2 rival gangz working in a factory. Nothing will ever ship ( at least nothing worth buying ) becauze the rivalz woud spend most uv their time sabataging each otherz work.

PatInTheHat
New Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:49 am
Custom Title: Major Goofball
Location: InThe Mighty BlueGrass of Falmouth in the Commonwealth of Kentucky

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by PatInTheHat » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:58 pm

JO 753 wrote:Ye, campaign on the brain iz a major cauze uv krappy gummit, but the 2 party system iz just az much to blame. Its like having 2 rival gangz working in a factory. Nothing will ever ship ( at least nothing worth buying ) becauze the rivalz woud spend most uv their time sabataging each otherz work.


No argument there.
Going back to networks and national coverage, both parties colluded to make sure they were the only candidates to be able to participate in network national debates, after Ross Perot (crazy like a fox wacky nutbag that he is..I liked that about him :oops: ) and his snazzy high def pie charts put the monkey in the monkey wrench.
And did it right before our eyes.
What does that say about a democratic nation, other than we don't appreciate what we have, while at the same time we as a nation, want to shove democracy down everyone else's throats exclaiming it's virtues of freedom & choice ...not to mention tasteless white bread.
If you want to live life on your own terms, you have to be willing to crash & burn.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5430
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:58 pm

I believe that all government is evil, and that trying to improve it is largely a waste of time.
H. L. Mencken
US editor (1880 - 1956)

“To be governed is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so."-- Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

"Government is that great fictitious entity wherein everyone endeavors to live at the expense of everyone else." Frederic Bastiat
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

PatInTheHat
New Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:49 am
Custom Title: Major Goofball
Location: InThe Mighty BlueGrass of Falmouth in the Commonwealth of Kentucky

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by PatInTheHat » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:59 pm

Tom-Palven wrote:I believe that all government is evil, and that trying to improve it is largely a waste of time.
H. L. Mencken
US editor (1880 - 1956)

“To be governed is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so."-- Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

"Government is that great fictitious entity wherein everyone endeavors to live at the expense of everyone else." Frederic Bastiat


Well I'm with ya brother, but it's somethin' to do, and besides, whataya gonna do?
I suppose one could just watch it go down in flames, after all, historically speaking, democracy has a limited shelf life with a relatively short expiration date.
Good high quality entertainment sure don't come cheap ya know.
We might be able to squeeze some time out of our democracy though...the republic thing maybe not so much.

This type of democracy we boosted largely from the Iroquois (I think I remember it was the Iroquois at any rate) worked longer for them longer than most societies if I'm not mistaken...but then we know what happened to them.
Maybe tax free tobacco and more casinos are the answer :laff: .
If you want to live life on your own terms, you have to be willing to crash & burn.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5430
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:40 pm

I'm here proselytizing instead of tending my own garden, as Voltaire suggested, but I don't think that we're going to get anything more that's kind and decent out of this democracy. Emma Lazarus' "Give us your tired, your poor" went out a long time ago when Roosevelt turned away Jewish refugee ships and interned US citizens of Japanese ancestry, and now the US foreign legion murders innocent bystanders in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan every day with no one raising an eyebrow.
If the US government is FUBAR, and I truly believe it is, it would seem a gift to humanity to put it out of its misery sooner rather than later.

Hey, Cha, if you're there,
When I was just looking over this thread I noticed that you made a comment and I responded to Brauney, about individualists behaving like everyone else. First mistake I've ever made.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
brauneyz
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3767
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:13 pm
Location: Everywhere, USA

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by brauneyz » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:01 am

Tom-Palven wrote:...Give us your tired, your poor" went out a long time ago when Roosevelt turned away Jewish refugee ships and interned US citizens of Japanese ancestry, and now the US foreign legion murders innocent bystanders in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan every day with no one raising an eyebrow.

Cuz, my eyebrows have risen all the way over my forehead and down the back of my skull, but I'm just too damn tired of screaming. Peace out, and HNY. :(
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ~ Bertrand de Jouvenel

PatInTheHat
New Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:49 am
Custom Title: Major Goofball
Location: InThe Mighty BlueGrass of Falmouth in the Commonwealth of Kentucky

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by PatInTheHat » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:24 am

No danger in that happening anytime soon, it's too big and would leave much too great a hole.
For good or bad, warts and all, this is still a place people are willing to die to get to.
I think this is the only place on the planet where even when a foreigner becomes a citizen, he gets called the name of his new country, he (sorry gals), or she is called an American...or sure, a "Whatever" American, but that's really more a true born & bred American custom type thing, if ya get my drift..Irish American, African American, Italian...........
But you don't find that "I'm an American" anyplace else that I can think of off the top of my head.
Sure someone might say "I'm an "Whatever" citizen" if the became a citizen there, but not "I'm a "Whatever" ".
I'm not sure I'm making myself clear, but I hope so ;) .

That, at least to me, says something.
It says something kind of positive don't you think (that is if I actually explained myself clearly :oops: ), somethng that does make this kind of grand experiment still worth while, with so much potential still unrealized, and that's a potential for a potentialy bright future.
Maybe not even brilliantly bright, but more than a few watts worth.

The world is always watching us, and now with information just an instant click away, and global communication at our finger tips that we can actually carry in the coin pockets of our Levi's, who knows what the new future can bring.
That stuff is huge in my estimation, look at the Iranian's and what they're doing.
I watched the rioting on the streets they post on YouTube, and one of the things I noticed in the shots played this week, were how many people were recording the events on their own devices too, it was amazing.
We can turn technology around on our government for a change, and effect public opinion and make change, how 'bout that..pretty groovy huh?

I'm not sure it's quite FUBAR quite yet, just seems & feels that way...and has for decades to me too to be totally honest...the last almost twelve years has been agony..to me.
I really should stop paying so much attention, but I'm a glutton for punishment, as evidently is my tv...inanimate objects often need to punished too, and this one has almost been chucked outta window more than once :shockd: ...seriously, but I'm not a very good glazier :laff:!

I often think of all that potential, and just how slow real progress often takes in grand experiments starting with such lofty big ideas like starting an entire new country by seperating and really pissin' off the motherland.
We're really still just snot nosed children historically wise (but with incredible natural resources)...they're still making pizza in the same wood fired ovens in Italy that are older than the US of A

I recommend reading David Mccullough's "John Adams" (and 1776) if you'd like a little pick me up..or even if you just like history.
Sure they'll spotlight all our scabs and warts we've accumulated up to today, but they also gave me some..well maybe hope is too strong a word, but they gave me somethin'.
It really should be required reading, to go along with a written and public oral test, for anyone wishing to run for public office.
Thomas Friedmans "The Earth Is Hot Flat & Crowded" should be on that public service reading list too.
If we're going to remain the viable country we wish to be, this is knowledge & information they should be required to know..in my opinion.
If you want to live life on your own terms, you have to be willing to crash & burn.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5430
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:42 pm

When you say "look at the Iranian's and what they're doing", I think that you're seeing a very small percentage of Iranians, probably many of them members of dissident organizations being indirectly funded by the US trying to pull off another Operation Ajax, which you might check out on Wiki. If five Iranian students start chanting "Down with Ahmadinejad" the CIA probably gets some money to them, but he is probably a whole lot more popular in the Muslim world than the US government.

Vladimir Poser said that he and others had trouble "parting with illusions" about the Soviet Union, and it took some time for me to eliminate all the Kool-Aid I drank in grade school about the US, but I am now convinced that partisan politicians have played up to the very worst in people to the point that the most Americans are now motivated by paranoia, envy, self-righteousness, and magical thinking. All is not lost. The world still produces wonderful people like James Herriot and J.K.Rowling who keep humane ethics alive, but I still maintain, IMHO, that the US government is FUBAR.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

PatInTheHat
New Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:49 am
Custom Title: Major Goofball
Location: InThe Mighty BlueGrass of Falmouth in the Commonwealth of Kentucky

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by PatInTheHat » Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:59 pm

Tom-Palven wrote:When you say "look at the Iranian's and what they're doing", I think that you're seeing a very small percentage of Iranians, probably many of them members of dissident organizations being indirectly funded by the US trying to pull off another Operation Ajax, which you might check out on Wiki. If five Iranian students start chanting "Down with Ahmadinejad" the CIA probably gets some money to them, but he is probably a whole lot more popular in the Muslim world than the US government.

Vladimir Poser said that he and others had trouble "parting with illusions" about the Soviet Union, and it took some time for me to eliminate all the Kool-Aid I drank in grade school about the US, but I am now convinced that partisan politicians have played up to the very worst in people to the point that the most Americans are now motivated by paranoia, envy, self-righteousness, and magical thinking. All is not lost. The world still produces wonderful people like James Herriot and J.K.Rowling who keep humane ethics alive, but I still maintain, IMHO, that the US government is FUBAR.


I see your point, but that wasn't my point.
The footage shot was a large and violent riot being recorded in real time by people all over that were actually there participating..well, many or most were probably taking an active roll, but not all of them...even if that made a difference.
The part that struck me in the footage, was the all the other people in the footage, taking and making their own footage...the more footage the better is my motto.
That footage was then broadcast through out the world telling a vital part of their side of the story practically instantly.
It's a serious potential game changer for anyone to wanting to exact change is all I'm saying.
Truth is truth, but if you can't get it out there fast before the filter is applied, it can and often means nothing.
That's all changed now...the more ya know, ya know.
Plus it sure beats horseback ;) .
If you want to live life on your own terms, you have to be willing to crash & burn.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5430
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:48 pm

True, true. The world still awaits the rest of the Abu Ghraib pictures.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

PatInTheHat
New Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:49 am
Custom Title: Major Goofball
Location: InThe Mighty BlueGrass of Falmouth in the Commonwealth of Kentucky

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by PatInTheHat » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:35 pm

Tom-Palven wrote:True, true. The world still awaits the rest of the Abu Ghraib pictures.

:D
Yeah, they couldn't couldn't make the CIA and the privately owned intelligence contractors look any worse, incompetent or inhumane ...well okay, not much worse anyway :glare: .

I can only imagine the rolls of film Cheney & friends still have in the refrigerator crisper drawer under the bags of unorganic carrots and thumbscrews.
I understand they grate best when they're fresh & crispy...the carrots too :laff:
If you want to live life on your own terms, you have to be willing to crash & burn.

User avatar
Gord
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 31948
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by Gord » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:13 am

Tom-Palven wrote:...partisan politicians have played up to the very worst in people to the point that the most Americans are now motivated by paranoia, envy, self-righteousness, and magical thinking.

Yes, it's called the Republican Party. :mrgreen:

Democrats are about Hope, Republicans are about Fear, and whoever can generate the most of their particular emotion can expect to gain office for four years of mucking about -- either the Republicans take power and drive their policies through in lock-step formation, or the Democratics take power and dither and scrabble like a sack full of bored cats that's just been dumped out in the middle of the room.

And the rest of the world sits and bangs their heads with resignation, hoping the pain of doing so will somehow blunt the agony of listening to more bloody idiotic chanting from "Teh Gretaest Naytion on Earf!"
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
Is Trump in jail yet?

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5430
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:31 am

I agree that the Republicans play up to fear, paranoia, and self-righteousness, but I think that the Democrat politicians own the envy card, and despite being less dramatically religious, espouse the magical thinking that everyone can live at the expense of the other guy, and Zimbabwean, Keynes on Steroids economics.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
bigtim
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4076
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:04 pm
Custom Title: Skeptical Berserker
Location: Miðgarðr

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by bigtim » Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:26 pm

http://www.ibiblio.net/hyperwar/WH/XIX/ ... index.html

I hear conflicting stories from folks that have been in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I hear that nobody wants us there and that the people don't want us to leave.

Guy I talked to back from Iraq said that he had families ask him to stay (this was when they setup bases in neighborhoods) because the American's made it safe and treated folks with respect. The folks that wanted them out were the ones the Americans were cockblocking.

I hear from folks that have been in Afghanistan similar stories, but what I read from the Intel folks and others is that no one wants us there.

Why are we there?

Time called it the Aimless War.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 30,00.html


The war in Afghanistan has become an aimless absurdity. It began with a specific target. Afghanistan was where Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda lived, harbored by the Islamic extremist Taliban government. But the enemy escaped into Pakistan, and for the past seven years, Afghanistan has been a slow bleed against an array of mostly indigenous narco-jihadi-tribal guerrilla forces that we continue to call the "Taliban." These ragtag bands are funded by opium profits and led by assorted religious extremists and druglords, many of whom have safe havens in Pakistan.


When I saw the towers fall and we learned from whence it came my thought was "let destruction rain" down on the Taliban and al-Qaeda like the horde of Norsemen appearing from the foggy sea. I didn't care that people cried "Crusades" in an effort to insult it. I said "damn {!#%@} right, eat steel".

When I heard people try to blame the US for 9/11 I felt disgust at any person saying such things.

That was then. Bush/Cheny made the same BS mistakes Nixon/Mcnamara made. And now the same BS mistakes are made in Afghanistan.

If we are going to fight a war let us fight a war. War is not nice. War is not pleasant. War has no rules. Let the American Horde loose to wreak hell and havoc and then reign then back in when the objective is done. If we are not going to do that then bring our soldiers home.

Late at night when I'm drinkin a bit and reading {!#%@} about the war I feel very bad. I feel I *should* be there, that it's wrong I’m not. But, that was a set of stairs I didn't walk down decades ago and due to that my life had a different path. Had I taken those steps I'd have been a lifer...
~
BigTim
"I'm not entirely convinced that ValHalla isn't real."

User avatar
brauneyz
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3767
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:13 pm
Location: Everywhere, USA

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by brauneyz » Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:33 pm

bigtim wrote:
Late at night when I'm drinkin a bit and reading {!#%@} about the war I feel very bad. I feel I *should* be there, that it's wrong I’m not. But, that was a set of stairs I didn't walk down decades ago and due to that my life had a different path. Had I taken those steps I'd have been a lifer...

Jeebus, Timmy, it sounds like you're drinking now. Go with your other gut feeling, the one that says none of our boys and girls *should* be there right now. :(
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ~ Bertrand de Jouvenel

User avatar
bigtim
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4076
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:04 pm
Custom Title: Skeptical Berserker
Location: Miðgarðr

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by bigtim » Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:36 pm

brauneyz wrote:
bigtim wrote:
Late at night when I'm drinkin a bit and reading {!#%@} about the war I feel very bad. I feel I *should* be there, that it's wrong I’m not. But, that was a set of stairs I didn't walk down decades ago and due to that my life had a different path. Had I taken those steps I'd have been a lifer...

Jeebus, Timmy, it sounds like you're drinking now. Go with your other gut feeling, the one that says none of our boys and girls *should* be there right now. :(


Nope, not drinking now. But I am happy my son isn't going. And, yeah, if there is no war to fight then bring them home. I don't really see a war to fight, not unless they pick very clear objectives and let the generals conduct it as they see fit. I don't see that happening.
~
BigTim
"I'm not entirely convinced that ValHalla isn't real."

User avatar
rrichar911
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4852
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:03 pm
Location: Texas, God's country USA

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by rrichar911 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:22 am

The US is going the way of Rome. From a Republic, to a welfare state, to authoritarian rule. It may turn around but I doubt it.

There are to many indicators to ignore them. A less educated people, production down as measured by decades, debt through the roof, ideas promoted based in lies that would drastically change our lives, a seemingly unwinable war, ignoring the scientific method, etc.

The success of the US is in large part because equal opportunity in a free society creates capable people, as opposed to the results of a welfare state.

The problems keep growing, and hitting with greater frequency. Our leadership seems to not have a clue how to solve them.
What really intrest me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the universe ~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
brauneyz
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3767
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:13 pm
Location: Everywhere, USA

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by brauneyz » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:37 am

Rrichar, agreed. I just hope you recognize that the problem predates the Obamanation. Worse now, I fear, but it was a long time in the making. Yes?
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ~ Bertrand de Jouvenel

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5430
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Individualism, Anyone?

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:23 am

Yes, the US empire seems to going the way of Rome or the way of the Raj.. IMHO the attitude of the average US citizen probably approximates the attitude of the average Brit who kept stiff upper lips and bore up under the "white man's burden" as they fleeced the "wogs" and "the sun never set on the British Empire."

To repeat ad nauseum, I don't think that we're going to get anything more that's kind and decent out of the US democracy. Emma Lazarus' "Give us your tired, your poor" went out a long time ago when Roosevelt turned away Jewish refugee ships and imprisoned US citizens of Japanese ancestry in WW II, and now the US foreign legion murders innocent bystanders in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan every day with no one raising an eyebrow. When George Bush "shocked and awed" the totally innocent citizenry of Iraq with bombs, his popularity shot up to a record for sitting presidents of about 85% favorable.

Politicians here have used demogoguery to play up to fear, paranoia, and envy, and seem to have brought out the very worst in what was once a pretty generous and tolerant society, moving it ever-closer to a police state. If the US government is FUBAR, and I truly believe it is, the party is over, and it would seem a gift to North America and humanity in general to put it out of its misery sooner rather than later,.The best way to do that might be to starve it death with a tax revolt, possibly begun by paying a few dollars more or a few dollars less than what you calaculate you "owe" and write on the tax forms.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire