My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

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My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:51 pm

2-3 very important issues in the news. "Local" interests always trying to become autonomous and rule themselves their own way. Its a tension AGAINST world domination by a single political entity: the end goal before we go to Mars. Should Spain "go to WAR" with Barcelona over this issue........or let them break off? Lots of pros and cons........all the same pros and cons to any separatist movement. XXXXXX Gee, just thought of the Kurds forming their own autonomous unit.

Left to anyone's druthers........people would continue to separate until it got down to the family unit. Each home a castle, with each knuckle dragger a king. Would it work? Of course not........so where to draw the line........ how many lives spent to maintain it??? Can we have world peace without a World Government? If so.....more weight to not allowing Brexit and its co-horts?

CONFLICT.................all I see is conflict. We should have evolved from the bonobo's rather than their killer cousins.

EDIT: The Russian connection is to support every separatist movement as it increases the power of any larger political movement. Same with election interference.... all to the greater power of larger political units, especially the autocratic ones. Re the Home as the final political unit: the kiddies all think their own bedrooms should be their own units as well. thats what this is all about..........behaving like kiddies.
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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby Poodle » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:20 pm

a) No one 'allows' Brexit. I voted against it, but I live in a democracy and I lost. After that it's matter of course, not permission.
b) Note the Scottish vote on independence (they decided against it). No one went in there with jack boots and swinging cudgels.
c) Madrid sent in the Guardia Civil, and there's only one outcome from that - it was a disgusting demonstration of what democracy is not.
d) Had Madrid allowed a full vote, the Catalan independence movement would, in all likelihood, have lost the vote. Pro/con is about the same ratio there as it is in Scotland.
Do remember that historical Catalonia extended into southern France. See the problem?

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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:58 pm

Isn't the problem exactly what I posted about?

.........and to the former........."allowing" and forcing is what its all about. Nations/those willing to make history..... don't follow "rules."

But its not the "mechanisms" of separatism that interest me, but rather the outcomes/effects: the PRAGMATIC CONSEQUENCES of these various actions/desires. As stated: there is a tension. Too small...and you eventually will get taken over by more aggressive forces, with the over arching point of: Can we have World Peace when the obvious DRIVE of people is to form the smallest political unit possible which only DRIVES conquest by their neighbors.

Thats history.
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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby Poodle » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:18 pm

I suppose, bobbo, that it boils down in the end to selfishness. Catalonia would survive easily as an independent state, being one of the major earners in the Spanish economy. But Spain has been a unit for a long. long time - is it morally right for the richest areas to secede?
I would try, if I was a romantic, to say the same of Scotland, but that's based upon rather whimsical imagination - people living in Scotland would suffer (and they're no longer all True Scotsmen). How on Earth Nicky the Fish thinks she could create a Gaelic powerhouse just north of a rump UK is beyond me. Heather sales and salmon farms don't really cut the mustard.
But you're correct in one respect - multiplying the number of small, independent states in the world will, given the nature of the beast, result in small wars of economic conquest, and some of those would turn into larger wars of acquisition and consequent resistance. 'Tain't worth it. Nor is it worth the futile attempt to try and build a European super-state, but that's another matter.

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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby Major Malfunction » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:07 am

Open trade. Not shady deals.
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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:12 am

Poodle wrote:Nor is it worth the futile attempt to try and build a European super-state, but that's another matter.

Rather self fulfilling. Given the playing field, the players, and the setting all attempts to UNIFY MANKIND so as to bring reason to this world will be futile.................................................... until it succeeds.

So........MY POINT: in which direction do you want to head?

Those voting for autonomy have the short view of history. so do those wanting to maintain their current Nation State. CHANGE===>means actual change. Doing the futile.
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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:14 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
So........MY POINT: in which direction do you want to head?


Individualists would head in the direction of smaller and smaller political units right down to individual sovereignty, every person a king or queen, just the opposite of every person controlled by a single central authority such as the World Bank.
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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:32 am

There is a reason why we don't have a single mayor that runs all the cities in the US.

Instead the cities enjoy their own sovereignty. More or less.

The reason that cities band together to form states, and states band together to form nations is not because they want a single overlord, but because they want a unified defense against bad guys, and for resolving other matters of self interest of the cities and states (such as having reciprocity in driver's license, for example).

When a sovereign unit, such as California or Quebec or Scotland or Catalonia or Kurdistan, decide it is no longer in their interest to be subservient to their overlords, they have the right to control their own destiny.

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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:48 am

X==missing the point again.
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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby Poodle » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:48 am

xouper wrote:There is a reason why we don't have a single mayor that runs all the cities in the US.

Instead the cities enjoy their own sovereignty. More or less.

The reason that cities band together to form states, and states band together to form nations is not because they want a single overlord, but because they want a unified defense against bad guys, and for resolving other matters of self interest of the cities and states (such as having reciprocity in driver's license, for example).

When a sovereign unit, such as California or Quebec or Scotland or Catalonia or Kurdistan, decide it is no longer in their interest to be subservient to their overlords, they have the right to control their own destiny.

I agree in principle - but practicality doesn't take principle into account. Take Scotland as fairly typical. If Scotland goes its own way (a situation already rejected twice by the voters in Scotland) it loses one of its major sources of employment and income - the Ministry of Defence. Glasgow and Edinburgh would be very hard hit. Also, the push for Scottish independence is predicated upon Scotland being defined as 'everything in the UK north of the Scotland/England border. Unfortunately, the inhabitants of the Hebrides, the Orkneys and the Shetlands don't necessarily see it that way. Then again, lots of people who live in the Border area work in England - Berwick upon Tweed is a huge employer of Scottish 'migrant 'workers. Lots of Scots now live in England, and lots of English now live in Scotland. What happens to the armed forces? Do all Scots in the British Army have to join a Scottish Army? How many ships should be transferred from the British Navy? How many aircraft?
It's such a minefield created by centuries of Union that I think only a gooey-eyed romanticist would ever dream of breaking up the Union.

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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:17 am

Poodle wrote:
xouper wrote:There is a reason why we don't have a single mayor that runs all the cities in the US.

Instead the cities enjoy their own sovereignty. More or less.

The reason that cities band together to form states, and states band together to form nations is not because they want a single overlord, but because they want a unified defense against bad guys, and for resolving other matters of self interest of the cities and states (such as having reciprocity in driver's license, for example).

When a sovereign unit, such as California or Quebec or Scotland or Catalonia or Kurdistan, decide it is no longer in their interest to be subservient to their overlords, they have the right to control their own destiny.

I agree in principle - but practicality doesn't take principle into account. Take Scotland as fairly typical. If Scotland goes its own way (a situation already rejected twice by the voters in Scotland) it loses one of its major sources of employment and income - the Ministry of Defence. Glasgow and Edinburgh would be very hard hit. Also, the push for Scottish independence is predicated upon Scotland being defined as 'everything in the UK north of the Scotland/England border. Unfortunately, the inhabitants of the Hebrides, the Orkneys and the Shetlands don't necessarily see it that way. Then again, lots of people who live in the Border area work in England - Berwick upon Tweed is a huge employer of Scottish 'migrant 'workers. Lots of Scots now live in England, and lots of English now live in Scotland. What happens to the armed forces? Do all Scots in the British Army have to join a Scottish Army? How many ships should be transferred from the British Navy? How many aircraft?


You just reinforced what I said. Thanks.

Scotland made its decision. My point was that its a decision they have the right to make.

Weigh the pros and cons and make your choice.

Other sovereign units get to do the same thing.

Quebec chose to stay and suck from the Canadian teet while still demanding special treatment.

California might be making a similar decision soon.

Catalonia was not allowed to make a fair choice.

The Brexit decision has already been made.

Kurds are not being allowed to decide their own sovereignty.

And around and around we go . . .

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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:18 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:X==missing the point again.


No, just making a different point.

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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby Phoenix76 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:23 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:X==missing the point again.


Here you go again BtC. Which point exactly is X missing?

Bobbo, often it is very difficult to hang onto the thread of your posts. Your grammar and punctuation appear to be Bobbo specials. Try writing like normal people and maybe we would all understand where you are coming from a little better than we do at moment.

Anyway, just to add another thought to the debate. The USSR was made up of many independent states/countries. All these little places were squashed by the almighty "United Soviet Socialist Republic". At the end of the day, it didn't work. Just as communism doesn't work anywhere.

So what is your view Bobbo? Should all these little nations be able to govern their own futures, or should they have some big bad wolf have them conform to a different tune? And yes we all know that it hasn't been all that peaceful in some of those nations, but again, shouldn't those historical nations be allowed self rule?

Go one step further Bobbo. 2nd World War and Germany's conquest of various European countries to its own end. Was that right? Or should those countries be able to self rule?

So perhaps the overriding question is, do nations, no matter how large or small, have a right to self determination?

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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:56 am

Phoenix: you have left unanswered any of the four points last posed to you on "that other thread." YOU must engage the subjects......not pose questions and make personal attacks and then run away.

The dialectic is a two way street. You need to man up and do your share.

I await your substantive response.
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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:57 am

xouper wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:X==missing the point again.


No, just making a different point.

Ha, ha..........that would be a "Yes....but...."

I know. words are hard.
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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:55 am

Perhaps certain people should refrain from posting when they're inebriated.

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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:06 pm

X==try to be substantive.

"Tension" requires two positions. Arguing for just one position MISSES THE WHOLE POINT.

If I were you..............drinking would be my only excuse.
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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:19 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:X==try to be substantive.


Hey look, the pot is calling the kettle black.

:rotfl:

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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:26 pm

I am substantive. You are usually irrelevant: aka: not substantive.
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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby xouper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:51 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I am substantive. You are usually irrelevant: aka: not substantive.


Hey look, the pot is calling the kettle black. Again.

:roll:

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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:13 pm

X....yeah, yeah==the difference being I give the rationale or analysis for my position whereas all you do is give the words. Thats what being "substantive" means. Not that we disagree...but the basis on which we disagree. I give that basis, you don't.

Fairly often you offer up "words" that don't actually mean what you think they do. Calling the kettle black in this case has a strong inference that you indeed lack substance.... you are just calling me out as being the same. You are half only half right.
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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby xouper » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:02 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:X....yeah, yeah==the difference being I give the rationale or analysis for my position whereas all you do is give the words. Thats what being "substantive" means. Not that we disagree...but the basis on which we disagree. I give that basis, you don't.

Fairly often you offer up "words" that don't actually mean what you think they do. Calling the kettle black in this case has a strong inference that you indeed lack substance.... you are just calling me out as being the same. You are half only half right.


And the pot just keeps on calling the kettle black.

:roll: :roll:

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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:35 pm

xouper wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:X....yeah, yeah==the difference being I give the rationale or analysis for my position whereas all you do is give the words. Thats what being "substantive" means. Not that we disagree...but the basis on which we disagree. I give that basis, you don't.

Fairly often you offer up "words" that don't actually mean what you think they do. Calling the kettle black in this case has a strong inference that you indeed lack substance.... you are just calling me out as being the same. You are half only half right.


And the pot just keeps on calling the kettle black.

:roll: :roll:


You mean like the washing machine calling the dryer white, honky?
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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby xouper » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:07 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
xouper wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:X....yeah, yeah==the difference being I give the rationale or analysis for my position whereas all you do is give the words. Thats what being "substantive" means. Not that we disagree...but the basis on which we disagree. I give that basis, you don't.

Fairly often you offer up "words" that don't actually mean what you think they do. Calling the kettle black in this case has a strong inference that you indeed lack substance.... you are just calling me out as being the same. You are half only half right.


And the pot just keeps on calling the kettle black.

:roll: :roll:


You mean like the washing machine calling the dryer white, honky?


Yeah, that's more or less what I had in mind. ;)

Image

I'm the one on top, clearly oppressing my inferiors.

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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby Phoenix76 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:11 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I am substantive. You are usually irrelevant: aka: not substantive.


Well mate, that is very open to debate.

I know that I like to stir the possum at times, or more often, but with some of your comments or comebacks, I just bite my tongue and ignore them.

You know Bobbo, you do actually make some good comments, and when I see them I always acknowledge them with a thumbs up. But a lot of your comments seem to be stirring for stirring sake. I accept that we can at times, have a light hearted go at each other, but you seem to make a profession of it.

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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:50 am

Phoenix76 wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I am substantive. You are usually irrelevant: aka: not substantive.


Well mate, that is very open to debate.

I know that I like to stir the possum at times, or more often, but with some of your comments or comebacks, I just bite my tongue and ignore them.

You know Bobbo, you do actually make some good comments, and when I see them I always acknowledge them with a thumbs up. But a lot of your comments seem to be stirring for stirring sake. I accept that we can at times, have a light hearted go at each other, but you seem to make a profession of it.

1. "Well mate, that is very open to debate." /// Go ahead.

2. "I know that I like to stir the possum at times, or more often, but with some of your comments or comebacks, I just bite my tongue and ignore them." /// Why?

3. "You know Bobbo, you do actually make some good comments, and when I see them I always acknowledge them with a thumbs up. " //// Some is a high water mark.

4. "But a lot of your comments seem to be stirring for stirring sake. " //// Almost never.......and I uniquely mark when I do with "Sarc"

5. I accept that we can at times, have a light hearted go at each other, but you seem to make a profession of it //// ....and that would be a good thing.......so ....... I assume you have a typo or need to edit.

I find most of your posting all too personal and thereby off point. I get no greater satisfaction than by having a position or fact of mine shown to be wrong.........or could be made better. Simple disagreement doesn't hack it.

I took a quick spin thru the forum and could not identify the thread that has those 4 questions still unanswered by you...If I have missed you follow up please tell me and provide link or I'll spend more time trying to find it.

Consistent with the above, TOO MANY of your posts are simply BS. Of note: you recognized you post that studies by scientists are corrupt .. blah, blah..........and then on another thread you post that issues need to be studied and tested. You note the conflict in saying/thinking both things rather than striking some accord. It shows.
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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby xouper » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:42 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I am substantive. You are usually irrelevant: aka: not substantive.


Well mate, that is very open to debate.

. . . I accept that we can at times, have a light hearted go at each other, but you seem to make a profession of it.


Bobbo is the forum's most active heckler, and has been for years.

His substantive stuff (and yes there is some) often gets lost among the flames he posts.

Bobbo is not stupid. Can't be a military pilot and not have above average cognitive ability (when he's not inebriated).

The problem is he wastes all that on heckling and harassing people. And it seems everyone here knows it, including bobbo.

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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:46 pm

X: thank you.

Define heckle. Its pointing out the inconsistencies, conflicts, failures of someones post and getting some excuse in return.

Heckle standing alone is worthless. Heckling after or with analysis: to be cherished.

How else you gonna learn???

To that end, to fine tune Phoenix's review: my heckling of him is very much based on the fact that he posts on both sides of an issue complaining if anyone disagrees ==>with either side. Pro science review and anti science review at the same time. Can't stand my posts.... but takes pleasure from them.

Substantive: these types of mental disorders are thought through to reach a consistent position that can be supported.

Rare....but more of that going on in this forum than in most others.

EDIT: If you take the time and effort to homogenize your conflicting opinions down to anything near consistent........you will find yourself more comfortable with ambiguity and allowing for more opinions. Heckling arises when others stick to some minority inconsistent hypocritical unsupported view that they run away from when challenged. Its one thing to be stupid because you are ignorant, quite another thing to stay stupid once informed.

Just look.
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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby xouper » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:35 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Define heckle.


Heckling: Attacking the person and not the issue, disguised as "asking questions".

This forum's purpose is for discussing issues and practicing critical thinking, not disparaging each other, as you do.

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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:29 am

The EU doesn't need to disband. They just need to work out a better arrangement.
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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:12 am

xouper wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Define heckle.


Heckling: Attacking the person and not the issue, disguised as "asking questions".

This forum's purpose is for discussing issues and practicing critical thinking, not disparaging each other, as you do.

BWHWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yes, I agree: "disguised as "asking questions", or fudging the case by arguing you were misunderstood? THAT kind of question????? In fact, while I use ??????? more than most, I don't substantively don't ask all that many questions that aren't or haven't been answered in CONTEXT. The questions you complain of are actually POINTERS to get the confused going in the right direction. For them.

If you want people busy eating tea and crumpets so no one can see you shitting in the punchbowl..............go to a church social.
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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby Poodle » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:59 am

You have punchbowls in church? Now that's freedom!

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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:20 am

Poodle wrote:You have punchbowls in church? Now that's freedom!

No..... not in Church......AT Church Socials. Different thing entirely. And sadly, said punch is non-alcoholic so the taste of turd really comes thru.
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Major Malfunction
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Re: My view on Brexit, Catalonia, and Russian Interference

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:12 pm

And they have crappy cover bands that replace all the lyrics with Jesus this and Jesus that. Like to the tune of Mustang Sally, "Jesus Christ, won't you shine your light down? Jesus Christ, O Lord! Won't you shine your light down?"
This being was produced using the same process as other beings, and therefore, may contain traces of nuts.


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