Interesting historical/biographical detail

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Interesting historical/biographical detail

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sun May 14, 2017 5:32 pm

"[A clergyman] debases spiritual exaltation by reducing it to a hollow and meaningless formality, as a politician debases patriotism and a lady of joy debases love." -- H. L. Mencken

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Re: Interesting historical/biographical detail

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon May 15, 2017 1:00 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:Who knew this? I didn't.


It does seem a bit unusual. On one hand Churchill became prime minister again, post war and yet she isn't mentioned anywhere in Russian documents when the Russians were bragging about the magnificent Five. Peter Wright, who got into all kinds of problems after accusing Sir Roger Hollis of being a Soviet officer in the 60s & 70s doesn't mention her, yet artistically she would have been "circulated" by Anthony Blunt who was a Soviet agent and the Queen's purveyor of art and thoroughly discussed by Peter Wright. Blunt was a university recruiter or Apostle. Blunt didn't get hanged as he gave a full confession in the late 60s and yet she isn't mentioned.

I really don't know but my gut feeling is that she just socialised with some leading characters and had sex with some of them. Some people do that. Was she a Russian spy? My problem is What was her product? Its all very good to hang around with leading characters but leading characters don't tell artists how many extra tons of coal was shipped to Denmark to prepare to receive a fleet and things like that. Perhaps she was just a temptress but if she screwed Trotsky, why would Stalin tolerate her post WWII after the anti-Comintern purges?

What we really need to do is look at her Mi5 file. You break in a steal them and I'll read the files. :D

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Re: Interesting historical/biographical detail

Postby gorgeous » Mon May 15, 2017 1:53 am

maybe she was a spy for churchill
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Re: Interesting historical/biographical detail

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon May 15, 2017 2:07 am

gorgeous wrote:maybe she was a spy for churchill
Churchill didn't have spies. The British did not make it common knowledge until the 70s that they could read German Enigma traffic. The British intelligence services pretended they had spies in the German High command up to that point in time. Many people, before that point in time, put out books saying they were secret spies for Churchill and obtained this secret information.

Nigel West, the British intelligence historian put out a book destroying all these claims and made the very clear point that Churchill didn't have spies.
counterfiet spies.jpg
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Re: Interesting historical/biographical detail

Postby gorgeous » Mon May 15, 2017 2:18 am

all have spies
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Re: Interesting historical/biographical detail

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon May 15, 2017 3:38 am

gorgeous wrote:all have spies
No Gorgeous. Winston Churchill did not run spies. He was the Prime Minister. :lol:

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Re: Interesting historical/biographical detail

Postby Poodle » Mon May 15, 2017 5:35 am

Pies, you mean, gorgeous. Churchill had lots of pies.

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Re: Interesting historical/biographical detail

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Mon May 15, 2017 11:06 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:Who knew this? I didn't.


It does seem a bit unusual. On one hand Churchill became prime minister again, post war and yet she isn't mentioned anywhere in Russian documents when the Russians were bragging about the magnificent Five. Peter Wright, who got into all kinds of problems after accusing Sir Roger Hollis of being a Soviet officer in the 60s & 70s doesn't mention her, yet artistically she would have been "circulated" by Anthony Blunt who was a Soviet agent and the Queen's purveyor of art and thoroughly discussed by Peter Wright. Blunt was a university recruiter or Apostle. Blunt didn't get hanged as he gave a full confession in the late 60s and yet she isn't mentioned.

I really don't know but my gut feeling is that she just socialised with some leading characters and had sex with some of them. Some people do that. Was she a Russian spy? My problem is What was her product? Its all very good to hang around with leading characters but leading characters don't tell artists how many extra tons of coal was shipped to Denmark to prepare to receive a fleet and things like that. Perhaps she was just a temptress but if she screwed Trotsky, why would Stalin tolerate her post WWII after the anti-Comintern purges?

What we really need to do is look at her Mi5 file. You break in a steal them and I'll read the files. :D


Thanks for that very thoughtful answer. I think it remains just an interesting tidbit of gossip/celebrity news. It brings to mind Tom Lehrer's song about another woman who collected famous lovers. Here's a version with pictures:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWFEy1lVUMI
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Re: Interesting historical/biographical detail

Postby gorgeous » Mon May 15, 2017 2:59 pm

Michael Beschloss
@BeschlossDC


JFK asks his mother (after Cuban Missile Crisis) not to contact Nikita Khrushchev again without asking him first: pic.twitter.com/mGrdwUBXWC
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Re: Interesting historical/biographical detail

Postby gorgeous » Mon May 15, 2017 3:00 pm

Michael Beschloss
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Rose Kennedy responds to JFK's note about her contacting Khrushchev--pledges to notify him before writing Castro: pic.twitter.com/j9lO6qTDEC
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Re: Interesting historical/biographical detail

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon May 15, 2017 11:43 pm

gorgeous wrote:JFK asks his mother (after Cuban Missile Crisis) not to contact Nikita Khrushchev again without asking him first
Rose Kennedy could not speak Russian and Nikita Khrushchev could not speak English.

Are you really that stupid? :lol:

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Re: Interesting historical/biographical detail

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed May 17, 2017 8:51 pm

gorgeous wrote:Michael Beschloss
@BeschlossDC


JFK asks his mother (after Cuban Missile Crisis) not to contact Nikita Khrushchev again without asking him first: pic.twitter.com/mGrdwUBXWC


Interesting mother connection, I must say. So, I gather Rose Kennedy had some pictures of the 1961 summit in Vienna, and since she had other pictures autographed by Konrad Adenauer and other leaders, she wanted Khrushchev to autograph this one for her. (And she was going to ask De Gaulle to autograph her Christmas present to JFK.) Kennedy's remonstrance was very gentle. He just said he wanted to avoid any misunderstandings, so his mother shouldn't be contacting the Soviet Premier on her own. She should make her request known through diplomatic channels. I wonder exactly what route she did follow to make her request.
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Re: Interesting historical/biographical detail

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu May 18, 2017 9:11 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
gorgeous wrote:maybe she was a spy for churchill
[color=#000080]Churchill didn't have spies.

So, Noel Coward was a fraud?
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Re: Interesting historical/biographical detail

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri May 19, 2017 12:27 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: Churchill didn't have spies.
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:So, Noel Coward was a fraud?


Well I did go looking after you said that. I found a New York Times book review that indicates Noel Coward was a cultural ambassador who reported back on the responses he received for his anti-fascist performances. In British terminology, that makes him an agent. ( a source of information)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/13/books ... och-t.html

However he wasn't handled by Churchill, but rather Sir William Stephenson, the head of British Security Co-ordination, set up in New York City by MI6 in May 1940 upon the authorisation of Prime Minister Winston Churchill.

"Coward’s contacts were at the top. Visiting America in the spring of 1940, he received a surprise invitation to the White House, where he kept the dinner party in stitches singing “Mad Dogs and Englishmen” straight through, very fast, twice. Then, over a private nightcap, Roosevelt discussed his desire to “manage” the march of events toward aid for Britain.

A month later, Coward was invited back. There were no more songs. It was just after Dunkirk, and the talk was grim. Back in London a month later, Churchill’s secretary handed him this memo: “Mr. Noël Coward ... would like to see you tonight if you can spare the time, as he has been staying with the president.” But Churchill had a mixed response to Coward as intermediary. “I had a gnawing suspicion that there was something about me that he didn’t like,” Coward wrote."

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Re: Interesting historical/biographical detail

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri May 19, 2017 7:03 am

There was more to it than that bit of fluff article.
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