Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

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Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:52 pm

More Than 75 Percent of Earth’s Land Areas Are ‘Broken,’ Major Report Finds

A short interesting read. You know.....it does all add up. This follows an excellent 30 minute show on Russian TV about the dwindling Tuna Stocks. I didn't know the history of Tuna's, Tuna Fishing, the Tuna Market. All part of the diversity that is being over-exploited undercutting the very foundations of what supports the hooman over population.

Good tv all over the place. Chris Hedges having an interesting talk with a "Classicist" reviewing direct democracy vs voting in an Oligarchy and what government and greed is all about. Nothing we don't already know, but nice to see the cards reshuffled this way.

We could have made it.............
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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:41 pm

Old fish few and far between under fishing pressure
Date: September 14, 2017

Source: University of Washington

Summary: A new study has found that, for dozens of fish populations around the globe, old fish are greatly depleted -- mainly because of fishing pressure. Old fish are increasingly missing in many populations around the world.
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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:03 pm

Yea, verily. What I found fascinating about Tuna was that they keep growing their whole lives....makes me wonder what finally kills them off? also VERY interesting and important with Tuna and I assume with other fish species, or maybe only with those that grow larger and larger each year: they volume of eggs they produce is logarithmic rather than arithmetic. aka: killing off the larger fish is extremely injurious to their populations.

The Russian TV special on Tuna on this week is well worth the watch.....its very emblematic of the challenges to managing our ocean resources in the context of the challenges of the common green, although the program doesn't explore that part of it, aka: the Japanese who seem hell bent on fishing out the last one .............
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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:39 pm

The tuna design is great for swimming until you get to be a certain size. After that you're lunch.
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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:46 pm

Good thought........but they sure looked pretty speedy to me. Who would eat a one ton Tuna except homo not too sapiens?......and thinking about it, there WERE one ton Tuna's before hoomans made fishing competions to fish them out of the water......and then bury the carcass in the sand because "who wants to eat tuna?"

I have always wonders how smart fish actually are. eg: Killer Sharks (Orcas) about the smartest swimmer in the sea yet they kill baby whales by harassing them, wearing them out, and drowning them. As with sharks.....why not just eat them? Thats what Cookie Cutter Sharks do..... but the efficient direct action of this appears not to be adopted by the rest of the phylum.
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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:16 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Who would eat a one ton Tuna except homo not too sapiens?......

Orca. Megalodons. Etc.
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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:59 am

a - op vid is about wetlands drying up , rainforest converted to palm oil tress ? , etc.
and how wealthy countries cause this by importing food from these areas .
example - England .
also about wealthy people wasting food and buying meat .
I tend to blame over population - fact is I am a good example of wasting resources .
I would be healthier if I could stick to a low calorie diet - but I don't

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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:15 am

psyche: yes, thats the point. Human numbers outstripping the land and the ocean. Nothing to stop that from continuing. Very related is the lack of food right now in Puerto Rica. Island is totally capable of being self sufficient in food but Big Ag has moved in turning most of the island into single crops for corporate profit: coffee and bananas. Island has to import all its fuel and most of its food. After the Hurricane, the locals went back to the land and planted root crops asap waiting the 3-6-9 months to get Food Aid in the form of cheetos and spam.

If the USA doesn't PREVENT IT: the locals will restore their island with more food than they can eat and solar panels.....if the tax free haven PR has made itself does not corrupt the whole process one more time again.

PR is lucky.....it can heal. Many of the other impoverished locals cannot.
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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby Gord » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:40 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Who would eat a one ton Tuna except homo not too sapiens?......

Orca. Megalodons. Etc.

Cats.

Spoiler:
I remember a cat food commercial from a long time ago. It was taken off the air quickly due to public reaction. It claimed it was made with chicken, liver, and tuna -- three foods that cats would naturally eat.

People laughed at the thought of cats hunting cows to eat their livers, and catching tuna far out at sea.
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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:07 pm

Cat will naturally eat anything that doesn't require effort.
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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby Poodle » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:25 pm

We're doomed. DOOMED, I say!

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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:57 pm

Poodle wrote:We're doomed. DOOMED, I say!

Beyond doomed, beyond Thunderdoomed!
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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:47 pm

Somehow..........this thread has merged in spirit with the Trolley made Fun thread!

Yep.......if you can't beat it, make fun of it. I feel rewarded....both ways. But of concern: building a fall out shelter does not help in either case, although they are good for wine and distilling experiments.........

The Tuna special was just on Russia TV again as I was waking up. Tunas used to grow to 2 Tons in size. Then they followed up with Nestles domination of food resources especially in the fradulent micro-plastics laden city water they sell over the world with its huge pollution and carbon footprint, along with the broken farming policy of huge coffee plantations forming the base economy in many 2nd world and emerging economies (Brazil then Vietnam).

Heh, heh: in truth, ALL THE TRENDS I see are negative for maintaining our numbers on Earth...or coming on strong but ultimately too late?

I have: looked.
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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:39 pm

Here is Bobbo with his "we are all doomed " message once more. At least his fallacies are consistent.

No, we are not all doomed. It is true that humanity has seriously harmed the natural world, but nowhere near as badly as the dinosaur killer asteroid did, and life survived that. Humans are probably the most flexible and versatile of all megafauna ever. We are the only mammals to have colonised all major land masses without help (rats did the same, but needed human help). There are people living even in Antarctica.

Humanity is not doomed. I will never live to see it, but my prediction is that over the next 1000 years or so, our species will expand to colonize the vast expanse off our planet. When they say that the sky is the limit, they are seriously underestimating.

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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:13 am

Say Lance: given your rapier wit and well known sense of humor, what does "...ALL THE TRENDS I see are negative for maintaining our numbers on Earth..." mean to you? total wipe out, or huge reduction?? You gotta read past the headlines.......

Its not what you mean (see how some people can actually read past the words to the clear intent?) but " We are the only mammals to have colonised all major land masses without help"...we had the support of all the other animals and plants we bent to our will to make our way on the land. What if all large species of land animals are killed off? No nice fur to keep us warm...sounds like fewer numbers of us will be supportable.

does kinda put a cramp in colonizing space...... ha, ha.
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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:26 pm

When you say ALL THE TRENDS, Bobbo, you are simply wrong.

For example, human welfare can be measured by simply looking at average lifespan. After all, pretty much all the negatives for human welfare (hunger, disease poverty etc) also reduce lifespan. Yet human lifespan continues to increase ( except weirdly, in the USA ). This is a major indicator that welfare continues to get better.

You have this habit of insisting, Bobbo, that Homo sapiens must bow down to the laws of nature and ecology, even though I have pointed out to you that humanity has this habit of cheating.

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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:19 pm

Thats: one.

........but if I was a negative person, I'd say extended lifespan is just another negative impact on the Earth, aka: consuming resources without producing anything. Ever been to a nursing home?
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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:53 pm

Extended lifespan, Bobbo, includes being fit and able for longer. Not in every case, of course, but often enough to make a real difference. I am 69 years old and I am still a keen scuba diver. I can do things that a 50 year old would have been unable to do a couple centuries back.

The impact humans have on the Earth is primarily a function of what we do. Not of how many of us there are. Humanity has the ability to learn. Other animals may have negative effects. For example, elephants destroy trees. Rats render entire bird species extinct. But they cannot change. Humans can.

This is why we have a science of ecology. We can learn to live in such a way as to minimise our harmful impact. Humans are not doomed, as other species are, to live and die in obedience to the laws of nature. We cheat. We get around those laws.

Humanity today is thriving. The major indicator of how well a species is doing is its numbers. At 7.5 billion, Homo sapiens right now is thriving as it has never done before. Nor is there any real sign that humans will stop thriving.

You, Bobbo, are caught up in the belief that humans are just like other animals and limited by the same things that limit other species. We are not.

Take Liebig's law of the minimum, a basic rule of ecology. It says that a species will grow in number until the resource in least supply runs out, and then the numbers will stop increasing, or may even drop drastically. Does this happen with humans? No ! Humanity has encountered this 'limit ' numerous times, and always found a way around. In ancient Persia, food supply was limited by water for irrigation. It ran out 3000 years ago. Did this stop the Persians ? No. They used their bronze tools and built underground tunnels called qanots to carry water from the mountains down to the fertile plains to permit even more food cultivation .

Humans cheat. We find ways around the limits that stymie other species. As our knowledge and technology grows, we keep finding more and more ways of cheating.

You have this unreal belief that nature's limits will stop us. I got news for you. We passed those limits many centuries ago, and keep right on growing.

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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:53 am

Lance.................... what to do with you?

I will be honest, direct, short.

1. "Kill Us All" is a meme. Meant to be a humorous attention getter....and to link all related issues together. Contra: it is the worst case outcome if the right/wrong elements come together====>especially when all too many societal forces argue against the issue.

2. There are pros and cons to all issues. To think everything will work out because it always has....is just unthinking wild eyed optimism that is even worse than its opposite cousin of pessimism. You have to accept the possibilities of the worst and lesser outcomes IN ORDER TO PREVENT THEM. This is the main trick you are oblivious to. The OP even says: "looks to"==>NOT that it is going to. What else is this but a plea to recognize the threat and to take steps to counter it?

3. On the current issue: you dogmatically refuse to accept what is clearly stated: "ALL THE TRENDS I see are negative for maintaining our numbers on Earth.." Ie: expessly not going to kill us all, worst case: just most of us.

4. ALL THE TRENDS: hyperbole that is very clear in context as stated twice now, yet you continue to ignore. Doesn't fit your mania. Your failure, perhaps even inability, to actually read and deal with the clear positions stated, forget the subtleties of nuance, has you arguing against yourself, not what is posted. and arguing gives you too much credit. As you fail to engage, what you do is repeat your position usually word for word in blocks. No added nuance, no new argument, no provision statements. In that.....You and Jim Steele are well matched. Ironic as he is taking the Science wins position while you are being pessimistic/warning/trying to manage the Earth and its resources. aka: just what you criticize me for doing. when did you last dive?==>long case of hypoxia.

5. I agree that Science has been causing and saving our butts since we stopped huhting and gathering. See both words there? CAUSING........and saving. Is there a universal law that requires saving all the time? Why is life getting very advanced and wiping itself out on of the elements of the Life in the Universe equation?????

I stopped scuba when I got PTSD from the multiple shark engagements I experienced...... plus, I don't like cold water. More dangerous and difficult: driving in rush hour traffic.

Check you gas mixture...and man up.
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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:02 am

Bobbo

As I have told you before, your pessimism is not based on data. It is based on your own emotions. The data shows humanity becoming more and more successful.

Sorry about your shark phobia. Personally, I love sharks, and I have encountered 25 different species of sharks over all the years I have been scuba diving. My main gripe is that most of them are just too wary to let me get close enough. I blame Stephen Spielberg for the widespread and irrational fear of sharks.

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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:12 am

Fear/caution re sharks is not irrational....especially if you are spear fishing....in low visibilty...etc. I get out of the water/don't dive whenever a predator is around....last time, a school of barracuda. The "joy" of staying in the water just isn't worth the risk/unknowns/uncomfortable feelings. There is always....tomorrow, and a margarita waiting.

Data. The OP is BASED ON DATA. Did you read the link at all?

Double check that gas mixture.....back down on the Helium and make shorter dives.

EDIT: I continued to dive for 20 years after my last main shark encounter. Its the PTSD I can't handle....or see no reason to force myself. I'm quite happy snorkling and scuba in the day time in VERY clear water with no history of shark attacks. I don't have my gear anymore....lost it body surfing in Hawaii. Hassle to rent it.

I did change my penultimate post...not in effect, but details.
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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:15 am

I have no argument with the idea that humanity is overfishing and causing other environmental harm. It is the jump from there to "we are all gonna die " that is not rational.

On sharks. If you spear fish in dirty water, and a shark comes along and grabs your catch, what do you expect ? Do not spear fish. That is a damn lousy form of environmental despoilation in itself.

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Re: Before AGW, our Broken Earth looks to kill us all!

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:33 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:.... It is the jump from there to "we are all gonna die " that is not rational......

Why can't you read what is right in front of your face? Try again.
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