Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

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Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Phoenix76 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:37 am

I do recall reading a thread on this subject previously, but came across this article in Real Clear Science and thought it might generate some great debate.

Given the unity between time and space, it leads to the obvious question: Is time travel, of any sort, possible? Under any circumstances? At all?


Oddly enough, the answer is yes!


https://www.space.com/37941-is-time-tra ... sible.html

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:08 am

Forward but not backwards?.............right???? (By switching definitions)
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Gord » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:10 am

Phoenix76 wrote:
Oddly enough, the answer is yes!

But then look at the rest of that paragraph:

Oddly enough, the answer is yes! We cannot avoid moving into our futures, but we can control the rate that we move through time. This is a consequence of another lesson from relativity: Not all clocks are the same.


Also note the conclusion to the article:

Into the past: Nope

It's the same story every time (pardon the too-hard-to-resist pun). For every scenario we concoct in general relativity to allow CTCs and time travel into our own past, nature finds a way to confound our plans and rule out the scenario.

What's going on? General relativity allows — in principle — time travel into the past, but it appears to be ruled out in every case....

So yes, time travel is possible into the future, but so far as anyone has been able to determine it is not possible to travel into the past.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:12 am

Moronic word game. Popular with Headline writers to sell that ad space.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby KevinLevites » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:58 am

As a published science fiction author, I have (naturally) wondered about time travel.

A major interest that I would have with time travel is the ability to travel into the past and rescue extinct species (made extinct by mankind, not natural extinction) like the dodo bird, great auk, elephant bird, etc..

I can see that if a person could travel faster than light...then this person could also--in a way--travel into the past.

To imagine this, suppose I want to see a carolina parakeet in the wild before they were driven into extinction around 1915 or so.

If I could travel faster than light...let us suppose a light year in ten minutes...then I could travel, say, 150 light years in a little more than a day...and use a sufficiently powerful telescope to look back at the Earth and see the carolina parakeets flying around in the wild even though they're currently extinct. This observation of extinct parakeets is just as valid as, say, the foreshortening brought about by Fitzgerald contraction, or blue-shifted light reflected from a moving object.

Perhaps the speed of light limit exists because, otherwise, there would be so many self-contradictory paradoxes that time iteslf couldn't exist...or, perhaps, not exist in the form that we know it.

If time functioned differently then we currently experience it...would entropy still exist? If not, does this mean that the second law of thermodynamics is a consequence of the speed of light?

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Phoenix76 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:49 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Moronic word game. Popular with Headline writers to sell that ad space.


Well Bobbo, you definitely seem to be in denial. From one of your previous posts I realize that you do not believe time travel is possible. A true skeptic no doubt. Will not even consider any possibilities.We all know that you are a declared pragmatist, okay, but your are clearly not a scientist or physicist. Obviously you have little desire to explore any possibility that flies in the face of your entrenched ideas.

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:56 am

Phoenix.......you're ON FIRE!!!!!!!

I think you are confusing science with science fiction. THE POINT of science is to figure out what can be done, how to do it, and what can't be done.

You aren't arguing with me, but rather with Einstein and the rest of Science: the SPEED OF LIGHT is a limit on things. Various other very established scientific principles like ENTROPY suggest time travel is not possible. Why "should" it be?? Just because you can think of it????? How about logical conflicts like killing your father before he met your mother? I was going to post if time travel were possible..... we'd know it because we would be being visited. Yes/??? No?????? but that is so obvious...... I didn't post it. Like aliens...... if they we here...... they'd be known.

Simple.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Phoenix76 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:18 am

Yes Bobbo, well once again it would appear that you did not read the article in the link. If you did, you would see that, whilst time travel into the future may be possible, everything suggests that travel to the past is not. So your rationale about killing your Father before he met your Mother, doesn't hold, as it is currently accepted, according to this argument, that travel to times past is impossible.

How about reading the article and then commenting on the rationale of time travel into the future.

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:58 am

I also posted that cheating on the definition of forward time travel was BS.

Its all inane.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby gorgeous » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:07 pm

people who travel out of body meet their far past self and far future self at times....get with the program...
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:25 pm

I've tried. All I do is wake up with a headache.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Poodle » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:23 pm

KevinLevites wrote:...A major interest that I would have with time travel is the ability to travel into the past and rescue extinct species (made extinct by mankind, not natural extinction) like the dodo bird, great auk, elephant bird, etc..


Come on. Kevin! You've just set up an insoluble paradox. Had you gone into the past to rescue species and then returned to your modified present, the impetus to travel into the past would never have been there, therefore you wouldn't ... and on it goes.

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby KevinLevites » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:04 pm

Poodle wrote:
KevinLevites wrote:...A major interest that I would have with time travel is the ability to travel into the past and rescue extinct species (made extinct by mankind, not natural extinction) like the dodo bird, great auk, elephant bird, etc..


Come on. Kevin! You've just set up an insoluble paradox. Had you gone into the past to rescue species and then returned to your modified present, the impetus to travel into the past would never have been there, therefore you wouldn't ... and on it goes.

Exactly my point.

If traveling faster than light sets up time paradoxes...then perhaps an FTL "warp drive" and/or "hyperspace" travel system must forever remain a fantasy since FTL drive is just as much a logical contradiction as traveling into the past.

If this is the case, then travel between the stars might only be possible with a combination of patience and medical advances that create a really long lifespan.

So...any E.T. aliens visiting Earth must be a patient people...which is probably a good thing considering how nasty and disgusting the human race is.

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:21 pm

Looks like FTL will have to occur before PARADOX is understood.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:59 am

Is time travel, of any sort, possible? Under any circumstances? At all?
I time travel every day...at the rate of one second per second. :mrgreen: During the night, though, the rate seems to change to seven hours per second. (Damn! Didn't I just fall asleep?)

We cannot avoid moving into our futures, but we can control the rate that we move through time.
Absolutely. Do something you enjoy and tempus seems to fugit at light speed. Do something boring, and time fails to pass no matter how far you pull over into the breakdown lane. :roll:

Are we still tied to just the one time dimension? Seems lopsided, given three space dimensions. There should be three for time as well. Past, present, future. Or inception, duration, and termination of an event.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Gord » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:05 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:During the night, though, the rate seems to change to seven hours per second.

Wow, that's fast! I seem to average about eight hours per hour.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Phoenix76 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:26 am

Nikki wrote:
Are we still tied to just the one time dimension? Seems lopsided, given three space dimensions. There should be three for time as well. Past, present, future. Or inception, duration, and termination of an event.


Well Nikki, we certainly do have a past, I can remember past incidents in my life; we certainly have a present, I am sitting hear pushing little black keys to talk to you; as for a future, well again whilst sitting here I have travelled from the past, into the present and into the future.

But what is the future? Is it just one millisecond since the present, is it tomorrow, is it next year?

Time appears to be very fluid. Past, present and future is happening constantly. I guess that the only time there is no future is at that precise moment we die and cease to exist.

Thought provoking subject.

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:14 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:Nikki wrote:
Are we still tied to just the one time dimension? Seems lopsided, given three space dimensions. There should be three for time as well. Past, present, future. Or inception, duration, and termination of an event.


Well Nikki, we certainly do have a past, I can remember past incidents in my life; we certainly have a present, I am sitting hear pushing little black keys to talk to you; as for a future, well again whilst sitting here I have travelled from the past, into the present and into the future.
Agreed. Although it is interesting how our memories change in that we tend to remember the most recent retelling of the memory as the actual event. I'm curious as to the role that plays in our idea of our "self." How much do we change as we retell memories, in what way do we change details, and for what reason? I mean, how many times has it happened that you and someone else were present at the same past event, but your memories of it differ significantly?

Phoenix76 wrote:But what is the future? Is it just one millisecond since the present, is it tomorrow, is it next year?
I would say it's all of those. Everything that has not yet happened, but might possibly happen. Then we can take that and go really deep with it: Is there a reality where I didn't get married and have a daughter? Or one where I actually did die by drowning when I was nine years old, instead of being rescued? :shockd:

Phoenix76 wrote:Time appears to be very fluid. Past, present and future is happening constantly. I guess that the only time there is no future is at that precise moment we die and cease to exist.
Well, there is still a future in that case; it just doesn't include us being consciously aware. At that point, we don't cease to exist, but our existence is limited to the genes we have passed to the next generation, and their memories of us.

Phoenix76 wrote:Thought provoking subject.
To say the least! I wish I had more background in it. (I don't count 40+ years of reading science fiction...lol.)
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby salomed » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:18 pm

Same universe TT is not logically possible as it entails the possibility of contradictions.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:19 am

salomed wrote:Same universe TT is not logically possible as it entails the possibility of contradictions.
I'm extremely surprised to hear this from you, Salomed, after you discarded any number of logical arguments in favor of your own personal belief. To what contradictions are you referring in regards to this issue?
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:18 am

Time travel into the past appears to be impossible. There is one way you miiiiiiiight have a fake time travel into the past, one way. That is if you actually travel to another universe, if other universes exist, and that other universe appears like ours did in the past. Seriously, seriously unlikely, but on a 1 in a trillion off chance, perhaps. Maybe. If you want to write a time travel sci-fi story, that is the way to put it.

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Major Malfunction » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:35 am

If you sit in a gravity well time slows. The rest of the Universe seems to go faster. So you could fast-forward, but there's no rewind.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby salomed » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:49 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
salomed wrote:Same universe TT is not logically possible as it entails the possibility of contradictions.
I'm extremely surprised to hear this from you, Salomed, after you discarded any number of logical arguments in favor of your own personal belief. To what contradictions are you referring in regards to this issue?


You know nothing about me other than your rather misplaced assumptions. Anyways...

The contradictions I am referring to are of course the standard ye olde time travel paradoxes involving closed causal loops. Some of them, like sending back a picture of the nike logo to the nike logo designer as a child, are simply melon twisting. Others, like auto-infanticide, entail a contradiction, and thus are logically impossible.

If you want to get all "manyworlds" on the issue, you have a way out, but it has always seemed a bit of a cheat to me. This is why I say same universe TT.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Poodle » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:23 am

Even if travelling into the future at a faster rate than we do as a matter of course was possible, you'd never be able to get back to say "Told you so!" Where's the pleasure in that, then? Anyway, everyone would want to have a go, and then where would we be?

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Phoenix76 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:47 am

Poodle wrote:Even if travelling into the future at a faster rate than we do as a matter of course was possible, you'd never be able to get back to say "Told you so!" Where's the pleasure in that, then? Anyway, everyone would want to have a go, and then where would we be?


Well there would be nobody left in the present to hear anybody who did come back say "I told you so" :?:

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Poodle » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:00 pm

Very good point.

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby TJrandom » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:33 pm

I time travel into the past every time I read a history book, visit a museam, or converse with relatives at a funeral.

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Phoenix76 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:26 am

Yes nicely put Tj. Perhaps tongue in cheek?

But if what you describe as time travel into the past is correct, then I, along with billions of others, would be past masters of the art.

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby TJrandom » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:34 am

Phoenix76 wrote:Yes nicely put Tj. Perhaps tongue in cheek?

But if what you describe as time travel into the past is correct, then I, along with billions of others, would be past masters of the art.


Of course jokingly - except for those rare cases where I get lost in the story, emotions, understanding the technology and how it is applied, etc., and can thus see myself transported in that instance. For then it isn`t observation, but rather mental participation. This may more often be in dreams. I can see enhanced reality technology helping people `time travel` in this way.

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:46 pm

There is an interesting consequence to all this. The scifi writer, Greg Bear wrote a trilogy called Eon. In that it turned out that travel into the past was possible, but only for an immensely advanced civilisation. So time travel into the past was discovered by the descendants of humans and all other intelligent species a million years in the future. They came back and checked up on us, and arranged for a copy of our minds to be downloaded into an artificial paradise after death.

So, you see, all those ancestor worshipping guys got it the wrong way around. We should be worshipping our descendants. Great, great great to the power of 10 grandchildren are God.

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby TJrandom » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:59 pm

...paradise after death, ... grandchildren are gods... Sounds like the religionists somehow survive and we will have to put up with their nonsense even after death. So Hell awaits. Bummer. :?

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Phoenix76 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:07 am

Come, come, Tj. What is hell??

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Major Malfunction » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:16 am

We've already discussed this. It's a cruise ship.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby gorgeous » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:11 am

fox-----Wyoming man arrested after claiming he traveled from 2048 to warn of alien invasion -----------told ya....
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby ElectricMonk » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:21 am

gorgeous wrote:fox-----Wyoming man arrested after claiming he traveled from 2048 to warn of alien invasion -----------told ya....


I hope the Time Cops throw the Temporal Directive at him.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Gord » Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:34 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:...arranged for a copy of our minds to be downloaded into an artificial paradise after death.

So, you see, all those ancestor worshipping guys got it the wrong way around. We should be worshipping our descendants. Great, great great to the power of 10 grandchildren are God.

Copies aren't the originals. Why would I worship my descendants for creating a duplicate of me that I'll never even get to meet? Hell, not only does it "get downloaded to paradise" (a place I'll never experience), but it doesn't even happen until after my death (a time I'll never experience).

Besides, if it's supposed to be paradise, nobody wants a copy of me in there. :beee:
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Gord » Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:43 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
gorgeous wrote:fox-----Wyoming man arrested after claiming he traveled from 2048 to warn of alien invasion -----------told ya....

I hope the Time Cops throw the Temporal Directive at him.

It's a pity Bryant Johnson has a history on this planet going back to 1990, or else his story would be less explainable as the lunatic ramblings of a drunken 27-year-old.

Of course, there's also the argument that he's telling the truth: http://www.theroot.com/in-crazy-wypipo- ... 1819189797
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:54 am

To Gord.

Fair comment.

However, I have often wondered what the difference would be. I pondered this after seeing the fictional Star Trek transporter system. If a person is disintegrated and sent to a point where he is reassembled, is that still the original guy ? If so, how is that different to the person being disintegrated and an exact copy made ?

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:00 am

The same difference as going to bed one person, and waking up another.
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Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26776
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:18 am

gorgeous wrote:Fox .. Wyoming man arrested after claiming he traveled from 2048 to warn of alien invasion -----------told ya....
You really are a total idiot Gorgeous. It was a joke to see how stupid Fox viewers are........that would be you. :lol:

"He told police he had been able to time travel because aliens had filled his body with alcohol."

"Johnson, who was allegedly found with a blood alcohol content of 0.136"

"After delivering his message, Bryant Johnson was charged with public intoxication."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/ ... cae802aea7


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