Gravitational Waves Detected

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Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Monster » Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:01 pm

http://www.economist.com/news/science-a ... icted-them

So, I've been wondering about the applications of detecting such waves. Basically, it helps with detecting objects that are a billion or more light years away. And peeking into neutron stars. Stuff like that.

Interesting quote from the article:
...is the first gravitational wave to be detected directly by human scientists.

Maybe gorgeous is right. The reptiles are here and they detected gravitational waves already!
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby ElectricMonk » Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:10 pm

Using this detector, can we calculate how much God weighs?
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Gord » Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:02 pm

Monster wrote:http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21692851-gravitational-waves-at-LIGO-century-after-Albert-Einstein-predicted-them

Feb 13th 2016

Did I lose two days somewhere, or is this article coming from the future? :shock:
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Monster » Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:24 pm

Gord wrote:
Monster wrote:http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21692851-gravitational-waves-at-LIGO-century-after-Albert-Einstein-predicted-them

Feb 13th 2016

Did I lose two days somewhere, or is this article coming from the future? :shock:

Oh my puke, you're right! It's from the future!
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Gord » Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:03 pm

Oh no run!
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:22 pm

Which direction?
Hi, Io the lurker.

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:47 pm

We all walk/run towards the future. Motivations differ, the outcome is the same.
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:48 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Which direction?
Backwards. We must all run backwards!
redqueen.jpg


I recommend this book by the bloke who helped "kick start" our modern skeptical movement, Martin Gardner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Annotated_Alice

MGB 1991 C Alice.jpg
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Poodle » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:06 am

OK, OK - we've detected gravitational waves. They're real. But I'm getting old and can't quite get my head round it. Does it mean that we've proved the physical existence of spacetime, or is that still to be regarded as a mathematical construct?

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Monster » Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:44 am

I think it means space time is for realsies.
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Flash » Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:44 am

So it means that space-time is actually something (not nothing), probably what used to be called "ether" and both Michelson and Morley were wrong. :gum:
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:44 am

We knew about space-time before. Now we know it can 'wobble'.

With this discovery, we have gained a new way to probe the universe, not using electromagnetic waves, but gravitational ones.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Poodle » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:24 am

ElectricMonk wrote:We knew about space-time before. Now we know it can 'wobble'.

With this discovery, we have gained a new way to probe the universe, not using electromagnetic waves, but gravitational ones.


Well, we knew we could use the concept but we haven't known if it was really real. If that's changed now, then it makes for a lot of finger-pointing at time, doesn't it? I mean, if spacetime can genuinely wobble rather than wobble only on paper, doesn't that mean that time is, in fact now rather than in math, just another dimension identical to the others?

This is what I'm getting at - time should, therefore, be interchangeable with any other dimension or my mind is incapable of grasping the reality.

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:44 am

Poodle wrote:
This is what I'm getting at - time should, therefore, be interchangeable with any other dimension or my mind is incapable of grasping the reality.


for me, the most useful way to think about spacetime is like this: everything always moves at the speed of light. But this speed distributed along four dimensions: 3 spacial, one temporal. We can not interchange dimensions, but we can 'allocate' how fast we move along each one.
to illustrate:
the earth moves rather slow in 3-dimensional space, and most of its total speed therefore occurs in the temporal dimension: time is moving fast on earth.
But a muon, as emitted by our sun, travels very fast in space, a significant fraction of c. it therefore travels much slower in time. We can prove this by looking at the decay times of slow vs. fast moving particles: the faster a particle moves in space, the slower it decays. A muon, that by our time-measurement should have decayed long before reaching the earth can nevertheless be detected here because time passes slower for it.
(From the POV of the particle, the decay rates are, of course, always the same. )
In the case of photons, all the speed goes into spatial movement, leaving nothing to time: a photon therefore does not experience time.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:24 am

What was very funny was that a "Wooster" on the JREF/ISF forum, had just started to present a beautiful, complex, insane alternative hypothesis in psychics, that proved gravity waves would not exist, and then the press release was issued about the discovery of Gravitational waves. :frown:

I actually felt a little bit sorry for him, because he never got a chance to rave on about what a genius he was, after all his hard "scientific woo" work.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... p?t=303204

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Gord » Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:32 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Which direction?
Backwards. We must all run backwards!

Wrong again, un-American!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CCh9sk-9l4

Matthew Ellard wrote:I actually felt a little bit sorry for him, because he never got a chance to rave on about what a genius he was, after all his hard "scientific woo" work.

What?? Since when does reality dissuade a True Genius™ from raving on about his woo?!


...oh wait, apparently it hasn't stopped him.
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:01 am

I've seen this reported on a few times now. I still have the original question: "What are the applications of "listening" to gravity waves." One telling comment: "We can now go back to the very beginning of the Universe." Ha, ha---I don't get that at all. I'm guessing that the instruments can tell us where and when 2 black holes collided, but I don't get how this new tool can tell us anything more than that.

Oh well. I can only hope the utility of this discovery will make itself clear as time progresses at whatever rate is warranted. Meanwhile, sea levels continue to rise.
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Flash » Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:08 am

Ve vill be able to detect farts of god. :oldman:
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:13 am

Flash wrote:Ve vill be able to detect farts of god. :oldman:

I thought that was the background radiation?
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:54 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Flash wrote:Ve vill be able to detect farts of god. :oldman:

I thought that was the background radiation?


That told us how much they stink.
Gravitational Waves tell us how loud they are.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:25 am

That big horn looking cosmic ray detector does look like a huge snout.

Good call. We have to understand the basics before we sally forth.
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Poodle » Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:50 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I've seen this reported on a few times now. I still have the original question: "What are the applications of "listening" to gravity waves." One telling comment: "We can now go back to the very beginning of the Universe." Ha, ha---I don't get that at all. I'm guessing that the instruments can tell us where and when 2 black holes collided, but I don't get how this new tool can tell us anything more than that.

Oh well. I can only hope the utility of this discovery will make itself clear as time progresses at whatever rate is warranted. Meanwhile, sea levels continue to rise.


Well, it's not only told us where and when they collided, but also that they exist in the first place. This is the first time black holes have been directly detected. The applications of listening to gravity waves are the same as those for light waves - you can detect very distant objects and events. light waves can be blocked. Apparently, gravity waves can't - so we can look much, much further away and, therefore, much longer ago.

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:23 pm

Poodle: we agree. But again: what besides that can be teased out of these oh so minimal perturbations?
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Gord » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:54 pm

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:39 pm

Poodle wrote:OK, OK - we've detected gravitational waves. They're real. But I'm getting old and can't quite get my head round it. Does it mean that we've proved the physical existence of spacetime, or is that still to be regarded as a mathematical construct?.


The latter imo, unless someone can offer a convincing explanation of how mass is supposed to distort spacetime.
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:47 pm

Poodle wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I've seen this reported on a few times now. I still have the original question: "What are the applications of "listening" to gravity waves." One telling comment: "We can now go back to the very beginning of the Universe." Ha, ha---I don't get that at all. I'm guessing that the instruments can tell us where and when 2 black holes collided, but I don't get how this new tool can tell us anything more than that.

Oh well. I can only hope the utility of this discovery will make itself clear as time progresses at whatever rate is warranted. Meanwhile, sea levels continue to rise.


Well, it's not only told us where and when they collided, but also that they exist in the first place. This is the first time black holes have been directly detected. The applications of listening to gravity waves are the same as those for light waves - you can detect very distant objects and events. light waves can be blocked. Apparently, gravity waves can't - so we can look much, much further away and, therefore, much longer ago.


How can one signal simultaneously confirm both the existence of black holes and the production of gravity waves by black holes? Isn't this a circular argument?

"LIGO detected a particular signal. The signal was a gravity wave from two colliding black holes. We know this because LIGO also showed that black holes exist. We know that LIGO showed that black holes exist because LIGO detected that particular signal."
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Poodle » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:37 am

You have a point. It appears to be very much a case of " ... these things are the most massive things we can conceive of, therefore these waves must come from them".

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby TJrandom » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:24 am

Pusssh... I detected gravity waves a long time ago - whenever I climb out of the waterbed, step on a scale, or synch up my belt...

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Gord » Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:32 am

http://www.pressreader.com/canada/metro ... a/textview

I don't know who they're quoting, but:

"The history of astronomy was based on light. We started out with visible like, and then we came up with technology where we could see radio waves, gamma rays, x-rays. Now what we're observing is not just another form of light. It's completely new. Anything that's dark in the universe could be revealed to us by gravitational waves. That's the promise this holds."

I think it's a quote from Dr. Eric Poisson, gravitational physicist at the University of Guelph in Ontario.

(Note that I'm holding a hardcopy of the paper in my hands, and the quote I've given has the word "could" in bold the way I've shown it, as opposed to the online version which does not. However, mine is the Winnipeg version of the paper and may be different in form than the Ottawa version to which I have linked. Also, I've taken the name of Dr. Eric Poisson from a side-panel in my version of the paper which does not appear in the online Ottawa version.)

(Second note: Oh look, I've found the online version of the Winnipeg Metro I'm sourcing, but it seems to be locked: http://www.pressreader.com/canada/metro-canada-winnipeg )
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby freebill » Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:50 pm

how come 2 black holes can merge, if time slows around black holes;

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/bla ... atts-power

or, since time can not flow faster, that's why ripples in space-time are created

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:06 am

How can we both get to the local grocery store if you drive and I walk?
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Gord » Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:53 am

freebill wrote:how come 2 black holes can merge, if time slows around black holes

Because time is relative. It doesn't seem to pass in the reference frame of the black holes, but to an outside observer time continues to pass normally.
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby freebill » Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:18 am

no; time is not relative in the sense gordie means

bobbo's answer is also a workaround

time is intrinsically-inherently connected to the space, or matter

time flows faster in higher altitudes than in ground level;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitati ... e_dilation

so, those ripples might be some disturbances/fluctuations resulting from the black hole masses' overcoming the boundaries of time

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby freebill » Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:59 pm

from the link above;

A) Time stops at surface of a black hole.
B) Escape velocity from surface of a black hole is c.
C) Time stops at speed c.

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:32 am

freebill, the scientist wrote:no; time is not relative in the sense gordie means
No, Gord is right and you have an IQ of 70 and think a half chicken god sent you on a mission to this forum.

1) Tell me what is the time dilation effect on the outside of the Schwarzschild radius? Explain, mathematically, your claim that two black holes cannot merge.


2) Then mathematically explain to us, you other claim, that President Eisenhower, in the 50's was transported to another galaxy and had a chat with "Ra" your half chicken god, in less than an hour, as no one on Earth noted he was missing? Stick to scientific terminology please.

3) Finally, how did "Ra" technically "have a conversation" with Don Elkins in the 80's, by taking over Carla's body, while she was on LSD? Why was Carla's hair, "the antenna"?

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby freebill » Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:21 am

relative velocity also slows down the time as it increases, as item C) above suggests already;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dila ... e_dilation

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Gord » Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:13 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
freebill, the scientist wrote:no; time is not relative in the sense gordie means

No, Gord is right

Yup. Time is relative in the sense I mean.

We can see two black holes collide (well we can't, but that's because we can't see black holes in the first place 'cause they're friggin' invisible!). In our time frame, it doesn't matter that time in their frame of reference is slowing down -- they still have to collide in a normal-looking way to an outside observer. If they didn't, time wouldn't be relative, because their time-slowing would affect us.

So for us in our frame of reference, everything looks normal. There is one odd occurrence, though -- whatever is falling into a black hole seems to be turning invisible. Whatever electromagnetic radiation it is emitting -- light, for instance -- will be reduced in wavelength as the object's time slows down in relation to ours. So an object growing bright white will shift to a red colour and finally to infrared, a frequently invisible to our naked eyes.

In the frame of reference of the black holes, everything gets really weird. For one thing, because time is slowing for them but not for the rest of the universe, the rest of the universe seems to be heating up. All those stars out there are putting out a constant amount of energy, but for the black holes, where time is distorting, it looks like the stars are emitting more and more energy.

(I'm speaking from memory, and it's been a while, and I'm too lazy to verify this stuff with a quick and easy Google search, so take it all with a grain of salt :P But also remember, freewillie is a bit of a twit. And I'm a bit of a twit, but at least I studied astronomy at university. HA! I just turned my head and I can see my old textbooks! Jeez, I wonder if they're still worth any money? ...what'm I talking about, of course they aren't; they're from the 1980s. Who would I sell them to, time travellers who wanted to go back to the 1980s and take the exact same courses I took? Although that would explain some of the other students in those classes...but on the other hand, I think "it was the 1988-1989" probably explains those weirdos just as well.)
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby freebill » Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:23 pm

nice try gordie, but I had taken an astronomy course in the university, too :D

and it had nothing to do with the physics of any object up there; you should have taken astrophysics course in order to be able to make your comments in your post look like as some kind of "official" fact :D

nevertheless, your post is contradictory in itself

in the surfaces of black holes time stops, but gravity does not stop, therefore 2 black holes can merge

but this merging creates a distortion in space/time, because sizes/masses and corresponding positions with respect to time might be different

how can massless photon be diverted by a black hole?? because blackhole distorts the space/time, the path of the photon; so that it can fall into the blackhole

now you should study those jets from black holes and explain to us :wave:
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby Gord » Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:37 pm

Sorry, freewillie, but you misread my post again. As usual. I didn't say I took a course. I said I studied astronomy. It was my major, eventually, after my major was physics, which was after my major was computer science, which was after my major was going to mathematics but never actually was.

None of what you typed (at least, not the parts that made sense) contradicted what I wrote. And I added quite a large disclaimer to my own post, so suggesting that I was typing "'official' fact" just helps to show how poor your thinking is. I clearly stated that you and I are both twits, and whatever we say should be taken with a grain of salt (although I'm obviously smarter than you are, so my grain of salt will be tastier and have fewer contaminants than your grain of salt).

If you need an explanation for the jets from black holes, try Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrophys ... rgy_source Not sure why you think they make your nonsense sensible, but whatevs!
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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freebill
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected

Postby freebill » Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:51 pm

in short, no, gordie

now you can go back to your neverending search for low-sodium recipes


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