Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby ElectricMonk » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:07 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:To Gord.

Fair comment.

However, I have often wondered what the difference would be. I pondered this after seeing the fictional Star Trek transporter system. If a person is disintegrated and sent to a point where he is reassembled, is that still the original guy ? If so, how is that different to the person being disintegrated and an exact copy made ?


Not the same atoms, ergo not the same person.

Even if it was only the pattern of atoms that mattered, it would diverge within picoseconds of creating the duplicate.
More interesting: the transporter obviously murders the original.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby gorgeous » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:41 am

You really are a total idiot ellard. It was a joke
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:52 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The same difference as going to bed one person, and waking up another.

When I was younger that wasn't unknown. Bunks are squeaky.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:14 pm

gorgeous previously wrote:I have told my own fortune in my precognitive dreams that come true..........and some future news events...............and I have enchanted many guys and animals...so there...

gorgeous wrote:You really are a total idiot ellard. It was a joke

So all your posts are "jokes"? :lol:

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:42 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:But what is the future?
An unreachable space-time locus. If you are there, it's your present; you can't be in your own future. Ugh...we need a new language to discuss time travel.

Ok. Let's say I traveled into a future space-time locus. My destination might be the future, but it wouldn't be my future. The instant I arrived there, it would be my present. And my normal space-time locus would become my past (as well as the past). My future would still be unknown and unreachable.

But there's one concept the author is overlooking: He mentioned that time and the three dimensions of space we experience are "a single unified entity—space-time." But he forgot that if you wish to travel in time, you must also travel in space. If you leave "now" to go back to 20 years ago (or ahead 20 years), you also must move in space in order to arrive where Earth was 20 years ago (or will be 20 years from now). If you just travel in time, you'll end up breathing vacuum. So time travel doesn't separate space-time; you always must move in both at once.

Time travel to the future? Well, we're already going in that "direction." So we would merely be speeding up the journey. But time travel to the past? I'm not sanguine that it's possible to travel against the entropy arrow and remain alive. I mean, I don't see how the journey could be instantaneous, so we would have to experience reversed time to get there. Imagine your heart and lungs working backwards, suddenly forcing "dirty" blood backwards through your circulatory system. You'd need some kind of protective bubble of normal time in which to travel.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:47 pm

salomed wrote:You know nothing about me other than your rather misplaced assumptions.
Correction: I know nothing about you except the arguments you have proffered in this forum on a number of issues.

salomed wrote:The contradictions I am referring to are of course the standard ye olde time travel paradoxes involving closed causal loops. Some of them, like sending back a picture of the nike logo to the nike logo designer as a child, are simply melon twisting. Others, like auto-infanticide, entail a contradiction, and thus are logically impossible.

If you want to get all "manyworlds" on the issue, you have a way out, but it has always seemed a bit of a cheat to me. This is why I say same universe TT.
I agree with you that time travel to the past is not possible, although my reasoning differs from yours. But what about to the future? Do you infer contradictions arising when time traveling to the future?
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:51 pm

Gord wrote:Besides, if it's supposed to be paradise, nobody wants a copy of me in there. :beee:
I can visualize it...

"Excuse me, who's in charge here? I need to make a complaint. There are at least a dozen signs in this so-called paradise that are misspelled. How can you call it paradise when I'm miserable every time I'm forced to look at imperfection? Fix it, already." :mrgreen:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:54 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:To Gord.

Fair comment.

However, I have often wondered what the difference would be. I pondered this after seeing the fictional Star Trek transporter system. If a person is disintegrated and sent to a point where he is reassembled, is that still the original guy ? If so, how is that different to the person being disintegrated and an exact copy made ?
The reassembled you might not be made of the exact same atoms as the you that got onto the transporter platform, but if the incredible complex equation required to describe "you" was followed without deviation, you wouldn't know the difference. Don't ask me how one goes about formulating such an equation...lol.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:35 pm

The thing is that one carbon atom is exactly the same as every other carbon atom. If I was disintegrated and reassembled from the same atoms, that would be EXACTLY the same thing as being disintegrated and reassembled using an entirely new lot of atoms of the same kind.

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby xouper » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:53 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:The thing is that one carbon atom is exactly the same as every other carbon atom. If I was disintegrated and reassembled from the same atoms, that would be EXACTLY the same thing as being disintegrated and reassembled using an entirely new lot of atoms of the same kind.


That reminds me of the old joke:

"This here is my great grand pappy's axe that he's had since he was a wee lad. It's been handed down generation to generation and now I have it. Along the way the axe head has been replaced only once and the handle twice."

Image

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Major Malfunction » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:53 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Gord wrote:Besides, if it's supposed to be paradise, nobody wants a copy of me in there. :beee:
I can visualize it...

"Excuse me, who's in charge here? I need to make a complaint. There are at least a dozen signs in this so-called paradise that are mis-spelled. How can you call it paradise when I'm miserable every time I'm forced to look at imperfection? Fix it, already." :mrgreen:

FTFY
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Major Malfunction » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:58 pm

xouper wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:The thing is that one carbon atom is exactly the same as every other carbon atom. If I was disintegrated and reassembled from the same atoms, that would be EXACTLY the same thing as being disintegrated and reassembled using an entirely new lot of atoms of the same kind.


That reminds me of the old joke:

"This here is my great grand pappy's axe that he's had since he was a wee lad. It's been handed down generation to generation and now I have it. Along the way the axe head has been replaced only once and the handle twice."

We're like a riffle in a stream. A standing wave of disparate atoms glomming together through the flow of time.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby xouper » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:03 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:To Gord.

Fair comment.

However, I have often wondered what the difference would be. I pondered this after seeing the fictional Star Trek transporter system. If a person is disintegrated and sent to a point where he is reassembled, is that still the original guy ? If so, how is that different to the person being disintegrated and an exact copy made ?


They address that issue in this episode:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chances_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)

What I have not (yet) seen in any of the Star Trek plots is using a transporter to create armies of duplicate soldiers.

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:06 pm

If you have an atomic assembler that can, with 100% accuracy, copy a small bar of metal, is the copy the same as the original?
No, it is a copy even if it behaves exactly like the original.

In the case of a perfect human copy, it would feel like you are the same, but in fact you are a duplicate.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
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1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Major Malfunction » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:29 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:If you have an atomic assembler that can, with 100% accuracy, copy a small bar of metal, is the copy the same as the original?
No, it is a copy even if it behaves exactly like the original.

In the case of a perfect human copy, it would feel like you are the same, but in fact you are a duplicate.

I don't have a problem with that.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Major Malfunction » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:29 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:If you have an atomic assembler that can, with 100% accuracy, copy a small bar of metal, is the copy the same as the original?
No, it is a copy even if it behaves exactly like the original.

In the case of a perfect human copy, it would feel like you are the same, but in fact you are a duplicate.

Me neither.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:34 pm

I'm unconvinced -
you might just be schizophrenic.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Major Malfunction » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:44 pm

We don't have split personalities. We were only copied a moment ago. But I'm certain our personalities will diverge as we are exposed to different stimuli.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Major Malfunction » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:46 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:We don't have split personalities. We were only copied a moment ago. But I'm certain our personalities will diverge as we are exposed to different stimuli.

I hate you! I'm leaving and taking my computer!
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Major Malfunction » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:47 pm

That's MY computer!
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:49 pm

Trip down memory lane, feel free to disregard:

The AD&D P&P RPG had a Clone spell that allowed a wizard to create a copy that would awaken when the wizard died.
If it got woken up early, the clone would seek out the wizard to kill him ( face it, not that many female wizard players), so that there would be only one version.

So watch your back, both of you!
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:04 pm

Every molecule in your body is replaced over time. Skin, every 21 days; bone takes 9 years (IIRC); other tissues somewhere in between. What difference does it make if the replacement is gradual over time, or all at once?
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Major Malfunction » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:01 pm

That's what I said. We're just a standing wave of atoms that come and go.

The biggest problem with replicators is reproducing the current state of all the atoms and their relation to each other and all the rest.

Spins, ups downs, sideways...

You'd need a huge amount of data, not just where each atom was, but what each and every atom was doing down to quantum detail.

And you know the Heisenberg Principle, observing the waveform collapses it.

So you could likely 3D print a Human with every atom in perfect position, but it would never take a breath, and subside into an organic slurry of components, if you don't capture the standing wave that we call "Life".
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Major Malfunction » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:21 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Trip down memory lane, feel free to disregard:

The AD&D P&P RPG had a Clone spell that allowed a wizard to create a copy that would awaken when the wizard died.
If it got woken up early, the clone would seek out the wizard to kill him ( face it, not that many female wizard players), so that there would be only one version.

So watch your back, both of you!

It's two frontline female battle clerics against one female wizard that ain't that smart. We can take her. Hmm. She'll only need one hit. Buff! Split!

You see, we can feint, distract, resurrect each other. You just need one hit with the Mace Almighty.

You shoulda considered being friends with your clones, you murderous mage! Observe the power of socialism! Bring the Holy Beam of Wokeness!
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:12 am

MM

Even though numerous crackpots claim quantum principles govern human body and mind, it is very, very unlikely that such things matter a damn. The human body and brain are chemical machines, and operate at the molecular level. Life is not a standing wave. It is simply that chemical machine at work.

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Major Malfunction » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:59 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:MM

Even though numerous crackpots claim quantum principles govern human body and mind, it is very, very unlikely that such things matter a damn. The human body and brain are chemical machines, and operate at the molecular level. Life is not a standing wave. It is simply that chemical machine at work.

I'm talking deeper than that. Fundamental substrate of the Universe stuff.

No woo. It's waves. Frequencies and interacting interference patterns. Explains everything.

Seriously, there is no such thing as particles.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:17 am

Major Malfunction wrote: Seriously, there is no such thing as particles.
I think that may be true, in the context of what makes up these thingys that we call "particles". But that's a whole different thread and probably getting beyond everyone's skill levels on the forum. :D

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Major Malfunction » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:40 am

I know. You'd think I'd've stopped trying to dis-spell that myth by now. But, you know... This is the Skeptic Forum...
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:34 am

With all due respect to MM, it is also bull-shit.

Life is not waves and interfering frequencies. It is molecules and molecular structures, interacting via chemical processes. You do not have to look at esoteric quantum principles in relation to life. Life is chemistry.

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Major Malfunction » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:58 am

And then chemisty becomes physics again. Chemistry is just another model to make it easier to understand. Electron shells are a lie. Electrons don't orbit atoms like planets. Then electron clouds are a lie. They don't live in clouds. They don't exist at all.

It's just easier to explain it, how they stick together in 3D like Legos. Another model.

How they really stick together is harmonic waves in the fabric of space.

I don't know what space is made of, but it's the highest energy state, and all matter is condensed from that.

Your graphs are upside-down.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:32 am

All of which is true, MM. But has nothing to do with life. Life is chemistry, not quantum physics.

To understand and manipulate the processes of life, you do not need to even know what an electron is. You just need to appreciate the chemistry.

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Major Malfunction » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:36 am

Play with your Legos, if that makes you happy.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:46 am

Now I'm not so sure. The only thing in the very early Big Bang was quarks and electrons. CERN has evidence quarks are particles, can collide, have different mass and cant reach light speed.

If Quarks were both waveforms and particles like electrons, then I'd be more comfortable claiming that everything was made from waveforms that later on populated the universe.........but I can't say that because the evidence is against me.

Whoops!
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Major Malfunction » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:02 am

One of the smallest fallacies holding us back is the whole particle physics legacy from a hundred, and thousands of years ago.

Now we can actually see it, and simulate it with computers. But I'm afraid it's going to take a while to seep into the general scientific mind.
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:26 am

Possibly true, MM. But that has nothing to do with life.

Nor do we, in fact, understand what the underlying reality is. In math it can be represented as probability functions. Neither particle, or wave, or even electromagnetism.

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:33 am

Ability to simulate makes us even more detached from quantum physics: ab initio QM simulations are a bitch to do for anything but the tiniest systems.
Coarse grain models using forcefields are so much easier to handle and useful in most cases that molecular modellers avoid QM calculations whenever possible.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:37 am

Major Malfunction wrote: Seriously, there is no such thing as particles.

That strikes a chord (sic...see below) with me. Seems the history of physics is to identify that matter is made up of smaller and smaller particles. How small do you get before there's nothing there?

But waves. ? What is a wave?.........Hah, hah.......and now I'm trapped by my high school physics out in the sports field flopping a rope around on the ground to show wave form, frequency, harmonics and so forth.........to the point that I thought waves were just a "motion" thru something? Again........nothing there except the medium.......but what is the medium in "the vacuum of empty space"?

So...that brings us to string theory. Isn't that mostly just waves? (Music has chords made by striking strings....took me this long to make the connection.)

..........Oh Well. At least I know: "Nothing can travel (through space) faster than light." I don't know that, its just my mantra. I know my Mantra. Strike the chord with me: ...........................♫.......................
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:47 am

String theory is branes, not waves (though they oscillate at specific frequencies).
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:52 am

brane: (physics, string theory) a three dimensional hypersurface embedded in a higher dimensional bulk

Nope. I ain't gonna do it. Believe in something that I can't make sense of.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

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ElectricMonk
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Re: Time Travel Isn't Possible…Or Is It?

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:02 am

Unbeliever!
Stone him!
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams


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