Falsifying wrong beliefs.

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Lance Kennedy
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Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed May 03, 2017 9:42 pm

http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/wha ... aba2d2db27

Many people go through life with incorrect beliefs. Actually, most of us. Arguments often make no difference to the false belief, and the person involved just uses rationalisation to support the belief even in the fact of contrary evidence. If you encounter someone who has such a wrong belief, how do you change it?

In the article referenced above, it is suggested that you challenge those people to falsify their belief. As them what evidence it would take to make that belief less sure. The example given is the idea that Obama is a Muslim. Ask them what would shake that idea. Give examples. Would a photo of Obama drinking alcohol do it? Would a video of Obama praying in a Christian church?

I have been in an argument on another thread about nuclear energy. My opponents have no data or even good logic to support their views that nuclear energy is some kind of bogeyman. Yet they rationalise with shakey opinions that they cannot be swayed from, even in the face of contrary numerical data I present. How do you get them to break from false ideas? (I admit I have not done a very good job at this, and I have not used the falsification approach.)

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby gorgeous » Wed May 03, 2017 9:54 pm

why do you need to change them?....live and let live...and there are different levels of Muslims as with other religions...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed May 03, 2017 10:58 pm

Well, gorgeous, you certainly argue hard enough for your own version of superstition.

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby gorgeous » Wed May 03, 2017 11:16 pm

reality
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed May 03, 2017 11:21 pm

There is a vital principle in the study of reality (science), gorgeous, called replicability. That means that if a person does an experiment and gets a certain result, and that experiment is repeated by ten others, the ten new results will repeat the first. Your version of "reality" is when one person does an experiment, and gets a weird result, and the experiment is repeated by ten others, getting a different result, you will believe the one weird result.

Why do you think governments like Russia and the USA stopped doing experiments on paranormal phenomena?
Answer, lack of replicability.

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby Nobrot » Thu May 04, 2017 12:02 am


You should have left it their, changing the venue will not alter the discussion.
Now as for the article. Defeasibility? What a {!#%@} ugly word, and as a concept probably quite useless outside of philosophy. From the article:
What, then, can we skeptics do? Here’s my recommendation: Instead of telling people to form beliefs on the basis of evidence, encourage them to seek out something, anything, that could potentially undermine their confidence in a particular belief.

Christians tell us god is in constant mind meld with seven billion people, now try explaining the rules by which the universe operates proscribes such an entity.* The answer will be a stare of utter incomprehension. The wooMeisters belief in gods, crystal healing, homoeopathy are immune to science or reason. The writer now proposes we add yet another layer of reasoning in an attempt to penetrate the impenetrable. It can't be done. He needs to take his defeasibility concept back to philosophy where it belongs.
I'm sure some homoeopaths are familiar with Avogadro's no. Now ask them how their potions work after the "medicine" has been diluted out of existence? Answer: It just does!!

*Spend a few hours @Catholic answers forum. Read it and weep.

Edit. Tried to fix link.

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby gorgeous » Thu May 04, 2017 12:19 am

they still do them secretly...and remote viewing was duplicated
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu May 04, 2017 12:26 am

gorgeous wrote:they still do them secretly...and remote viewing was duplicated
Really? .....so where is the missing jet MH370? Why is your crack team of remote viewers not telling us where the missing jet is?
Have they asked President Clinton to help them?
:lol:
Remote viewing Clinton.jpg
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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu May 04, 2017 12:32 am

To nobrot

There is a better example. How do you counter gorgeous' superstition about remote viewing?

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby gorgeous » Thu May 04, 2017 12:36 am

nobrot ...science evolved from philosophy and with quantum physics is returning to philosophy to understand it.....the core being ...what is real , what is an illusion...Bohr said everything is made of stuff that's not real...he knew...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby Nobrot » Thu May 04, 2017 12:37 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:To nobrot

There is a better example. How do you counter gorgeous' superstition about remote viewing?

That one's easy, she doesn't have any. Trolls generally don't believe a word that say.

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby gorgeous » Thu May 04, 2017 12:37 am

the missing jet...where indeed....maybe in another dimension.....you can't counter remote viewing because it has been proven to work...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby Nobrot » Thu May 04, 2017 12:38 am

gorgeous wrote:nobrot ...science evolved from philosophy and with quantum physics is returning to philosophy to understand it.....the core being ...what is real , what is an illusion...Bohr said everything is made of stuff that's not real...he knew...

Bohring.

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby gorgeous » Thu May 04, 2017 12:39 am

troll---meaning someone you can't convince...who shows the truth that you fear...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby gorgeous » Thu May 04, 2017 12:41 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
gorgeous wrote:they still do them secretly...and remote viewing was duplicated
Really? .....so where is the missing jet MH370? Why is your crack team of remote viewers not telling us where the missing jet is?
Have they asked President Clinton to help them?
:lol:
Remote viewing Clinton.jpg

-----------------the remote viewing of Clinton as president was early in the campaign...she was thought to be the most likely then....rv changes at each instant as people change...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu May 04, 2017 12:45 am

gorgeous wrote:the missing jet...where indeed....maybe in another dimension.....you can't counter remote viewing because it has been proven to work...
No. Exactly the opposite. The CIA closed down Stargate as remote viewing was a complete failure. So are you. You just haven't been closed down yet. :lol:

Your crack team of remote viewers haven't got a clue where MH370, Jimmy Hoffa, or their car keys are. :lol:

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu May 04, 2017 12:49 am

gorgeous wrote: the remote viewing of Clinton as president was early in the campaign
So your crack team of remote viewers didn't remote view anything and all those remote viewed images of Hillary Clinton being inaugurated in as president, were just a bunch of lies. Thanks for that.
Remote viewing Clinton.jpg
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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby Nobrot » Thu May 04, 2017 12:49 am

gorgeous wrote:nobrot troll---meaning someone you can't convince...who shows the truth that you fear...

Spoiler:
Image

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu May 04, 2017 1:17 am

gorgeous wrote: evolved from philosophy and with quantum physics is returning to philosophy to understand it......


Wrong.

Science is about empiricism. That is, about experiments and observations of the real world, as opposed to stuff invented between your ears. Quantum physics is a part of science BECAUSE it has been demonstrated correct by experiment. No one has ever had enough imagination to dream up something so weird! Certainly no philosopher.

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby gorgeous » Thu May 04, 2017 1:40 am

wrong....wiki-----From classical antiquity through the 19th century, science as a type of knowledge was more closely linked to philosophy than it is now, and in the Western world the term "natural philosophy" once encompassed fields of study that are today associated with science, such as astronomy, medicine, and physics.--------------------------and what is the real world???...if you exclude the non-physical worlds you are missing most of the 'real world'....
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu May 04, 2017 2:29 am

Gorgeous

Science was once called 'natural philosophy'. But it broke away and became a separate discipline. But philosophy is not science. Science is about empirical testing, and philosophy is not.

You could define philosophy as 'thinking about stuff'. In that respect, there is a philosophy of science, which is thinking about science. But science is not anything as fuzzy as that. Science is a discipline, and scientists are required to be very disciplined in the way they do things. Thinking about stuff is a good starting point for a lot of science, but it is only that, a starting point, giving a few ideas to work on. Without the disciplined approach to developing ideas beyond this point, there is no science.

Thinking about stuff is insufficient. In the days before modern science, lots of those who considered themselves wise would try to develop a knowledge of life, the universe, and everything, by thinking about it. For 2,000 years, this was the approach, and they got nowhere. (Except for a few practical people who learned stuff by trial and error.) Only with the discipline and empirical testing of science can progress be made in our knowledge of life, the universe, and everything.

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu May 04, 2017 12:27 pm

Lance: what data driven falsifiable scientific position do you advance for the fact that chocolate ice cream is better than a cherry parfait?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby gorgeous » Thu May 04, 2017 12:31 pm

stuff made of nothing real you mean ?....as Bohr said...which points back to philosophy...what is real?----------when you are traveling in dimensions meeting higher evolved beings and dead people you are leaning what scientists won't for centuries...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby Poodle » Thu May 04, 2017 4:18 pm

Niels Bohr quotations ...
"A physicist is just an atom's way of looking at itself."
"Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future."
"Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true."
"Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think."
He had a sense of humour, you see, gorgeous. And he knew that you would exist, so he wrote ...

"Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real." He would have died laughing. At you.

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Re: Falsifying wrong beliefs.

Postby gorgeous » Thu May 04, 2017 9:52 pm

nope
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.


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