I find a clash in a secular based value system

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I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Omniverse » Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:11 am

Read This Bolded Summary Instead: I will post a summary of this post that gets my point across. With a beautiful rose, I can find value in that rose even though it will decay away one day. But when it comes to a human being, then this person cannot be like a rose which would solely be a nature-based thing that will forever rot and decay away one day. This is because that takes away the human value of a human being and replaces it with a "rose" based human value. In other words, it makes human beings look like nothing more than roses or plants that will just forever wilt and decay away one day. Since the value we have as human beings is being subjected (clashed) with this "rose" based value, then that takes away the real human value of human beings.

In order for a human based value to be established, then it cannot have any relationship to things such as roses or a car which are things that will rot, rust, and decay away one day and that be the end of them. If it has any relationship, then that makes any value claim of a human being not a genuine value at all. By having a relationship, then you subject human value to mere things such as the value that a car or rose has which are mere transient things that will rust and decay away one day. In other words, by having a relationship, you take away the human value of a human being and replace it with the value that a car or a rose has.

Our human value is something very special, precious, and dear to us. We do not want that value to be subjected to the type of value that a car or a rose has. It becomes a major problem for most of us when our value is put into the context (framework) of the value of mere transient materialistic things. It is both degrading and insulting to the value we have as human beings and reduces said value to nothing more than cosmic dust. We wish to be special, unique, and different from mere transient materialistic things. Most of us wish to be divine eternal souls who are loved by a God who get to live in eternal bliss. I'm not talking about any religious based God who condemns you and has you go to hell. I am instead talking about a God who has universal unconditional love for all human beings.


When I say secular, I mean the whole idea that this is the only life we got and that once we die, that is it. Where the clash comes in here is the personal value we have as human beings with the insignificance we have in this universe. Imagine if there were a beautiful young child and I said to him/her:

"This child is a very beautiful person, BUT he/she will rot and decay away like trash because that is all he/she is (in the grand scheme of things). He/she is nothing more than insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things. We are all just biological organisms in the grand scheme of things only to have the precious value we have as human beings rot and decay away."

I see a major clash here in this quote. I cannot see how this child is a beautiful person when that is being clashed with the whole idea that we are insignificant trash in the grand scheme of things. The only way to create harmony between the claimed beauty of the child and the grand scheme of things would be to have this universe be one that is meant for us. A universe where we are souls who are more than our biology who get to live on happily ever after with a God who truly loves us.

This harmony is what would allow the claimed beauty of the child to finally be established as firm and sound beauty. Otherwise, there would be a clash which is no different than pinning up a positive against a negative. The positive and negative would cancel each other out. Therefore, you cannot have the positive value of a human being (beauty) when you have the negative (the idea that we are insignificant trash in this universe).

That's just how life works. If you pin up a positive force against a negative force, then they will both cancel each other out. Again, the child would be significant to those who love him/her in terms of personal value. But when that gets clashed with the idea that we have no value in the grand scheme of things and that we are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, then that is when things cancel out.

When I talk about establishing harmony, I am not talking about any religion here because it is often the case that you are punished and go to hell according to some religions. I am instead talking about a truly loving God and a truly beautiful and eternal blissful afterlife. Therefore, I really hope there is such a God and afterlife. I really hope it is not some Christian based God or afterlife.
Last edited by Omniverse on Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:23 am, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Nobrot » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:01 pm

"grand scheme of things" X 7. Please proof read your copypasta before posting, it will make your submissions less of a chore to read.

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:05 pm

"Beauty is truth, truth beauty, - that is all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know." John Keats from Ode on a Grecian Urn. Its poetry...aka...virtually meaningless outside its own context.

I far prefer the less quoted line just above this one: "Thou, silent form, dost tease us out of thought
As doth eternity: Cold Pastoral!"..... which actually leads us right back to Plato.

small world......but everything has been thought of already...in much better form.

................still, very few answers.
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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Poodle » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:55 pm

My preference is ...
You're born, you eat, {!#%@} and sleep, and then you die.
The simple wonder and emotion encapsulated in that pearl should be enough for anyone.

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:56 pm

Poodle wrote:My preference is ...
You're born, you eat, {!#%@} and sleep, and then you die.
The simple wonder and emotion encapsulated in that pearl should be enough for anyone.

Really? I knew I was missing ..... something.
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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby gorgeous » Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:19 pm

there are answers...by more knowledgeable beings and by people who travel out of body or have nde's..... they have seen and experienced the greater reality... ----------------------Seth- “(After death) you will find yourself in another form, an image that will appear physical to you to a large degree, as long as you do not try to manipulate within the physical system with it.” (From the book: SETH SPEAKS)
--------“For those of you who are lazy I can offer no hope: Death will not bring you an eternal resting place. You may rest, if this is your wish, for a while. Not only must you use your abilities after death, however; but you must face up to yourself for those that you did not use during your previous existence.” (From the book: SETH SPEAKS)

----------“You will reincarnate whether or not you believe that you will. It is much easier if your theories fit reality; but if they do not, you will not change the nature of reincarnation one iota.” (From the book: THE SETH MATERIAL)
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Poodle » Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:30 pm

I don't think that's the stuff the OP has in mind, gorgeous.

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby gorgeous » Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:37 pm

you can have positive and negative..it's called yin and yang..
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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Omniverse » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:25 pm

If I find out the truth and that truth is that there is no life after death, then I would feel very angry and disappointed. I would think it is pathetic and pitiful that all we are as human beings are biological machines with no free will and that once we die due to any circumstance, that is the end of us. However, I would get over it just like anyone else would and I would just have to make the best of this life I have anyway.

But for now, I am doing open minded research into the nde research conducted by Jeffrey Long, Sam Parnia, and Pim van Lommel. I do at least see great potential for the possibility of life after death due to my open minded mindset that is able to give these and other claimed evidence for the paranormal a fair chance. But since I am a very open minded individual, then I won't come to any conclusions just yet. I will not conclude there is a God and an afterlife and neither will I conclude that death is final.

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby gorgeous » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:29 pm

learning about nde's is great...you can also learn how to travel out of body if you like...Robert A. Monroe taught thousands of people it including govt people...they experience the non-physical beings and dimensions...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:04 pm

Omniverse wrote:If I find out the truth and that truth is that there is no life after death, then I would feel very angry and disappointed. I would think it is pathetic and pitiful that all we are as human beings are biological machines with no free will and that once we die due to any circumstance, that is the end of us. However, I would get over it just like anyone else would and I would just have to make the best of this life I have anyway.

You won't find out that there's no life after death. You'll be dead. Period. Humans are not blessed or special. Get over yourself.
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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby gorgeous » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:15 pm

death is not the end
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:19 pm

gorgeous wrote:death is not the end

Yeah, you'll keep posting from Hell.
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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby gorgeous » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:20 pm

sounds like you are there now
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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:22 pm

gorgeous wrote:sounds like you are there now

Yes, I am reading your posts, so I must be.
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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Nobrot » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:25 pm

gorgeous wrote:there are answers... THE SETH MATERIAL)

And here's me thinking trolling was easy, summon up a random brain fart and hit the submit button. But to be wrong on every count takes effort. You are to be commended for your tenacity Gorgeous.

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby gorgeous » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:27 pm

you will learn
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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Nobrot » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:43 pm

Omniverse wrote:If I find out the truth and that truth is that there is no life after death, then I would feel very angry and disappointed. I would think it is pathetic and pitiful that all we are as human beings are biological machines with no free will and that once we die due to any circumstance, that is the end of us. However, I would get over it just like anyone else would and I would just have to make the best of this life I have anyway.

But for now, I am doing open minded research into the nde research conducted by Jeffrey Long, Sam Parnia, and Pim van Lommel. I do at least see great potential for the possibility of life after death due to my open minded mindset that is able to give these and other claimed evidence for the paranormal a fair chance. But since I am a very open minded individual, then I won't come to any conclusions just yet. I will not conclude there is a God and an afterlife and neither will I conclude that death is final.

Regarding the highlighted: If you make this your starting point you will find life to be much simpler.
And btw, no amount of research into near death experiences will give you a handle on after death experiences, if you get my drift.

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby gorgeous » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:14 pm

does
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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Poodle » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:23 pm

... are deers, are female deers.
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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Omniverse » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:40 pm

With a beautiful rose, I can find value in that rose even though it will decay away one day. But when it comes to a human being, then this person cannot be like a rose which would solely be a nature-based thing that will forever rot and decay away one day. This is because that takes away the human value of a human being and replaces it with a "rose" based human value. In other words, it makes human beings look like nothing more than roses or plants that will just forever wilt and decay away one day. Since the value we have as human beings is being subjected (clashed) with this "rose" based value, then that takes away the real human value of human beings.

In order for a human based value to be established, then it cannot have any relationship to things such as roses or a car which are things that will rot, rust, and decay away one day and that be the end of them. If it has any relationship, then that makes any value claim of a human being not a genuine value at all. By having a relationship, then you subject human value to mere things such as the value that a car or rose has which are mere transient things that will rust and decay away one day. In other words, by having a relationship, you take away the human value of a human being and replace it with the value that a car or a rose has.

Our human value is something very special, precious, and dear to us. We do not want that value to be subjected to the type of value that a car or a rose has. It becomes a major problem for most of us when our value is put into the context (framework) of the value of mere transient materialistic things. It is both degrading and insulting to the value we have as human beings and reduces said value to nothing more than cosmic dust. We wish to be special, unique, and different from mere transient materialistic things. Most of us wish to be divine eternal souls who are loved by a God who get to live in eternal bliss. I'm not talking about any religious based God who condemns you and has you go to hell. I am instead talking about a God who has universal unconditional love for all human beings.
Last edited by Omniverse on Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:23 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Nobrot » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:46 am

Correct.
Edit to add. Even after your edit, you are still correct.

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Gord » Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:21 am

I've been wilting, rusting, and decaying away since day one. I don't see how anyone get's gods out of that.
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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby TJrandom » Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:12 am

I definitely believe in an afterlife. In fact I have witnessed an afterlife many times now with family and friends, and can attest that after death, not all has ended. After death, one does not simply disappear. No, your body is still here - and it begins to decay almost immediately. With some help from vermin, bugs, bacteria, and even your fellow humans - you are assured either a fast acting disintegration, or a long and somewhat smelly one. When I die, - well, before I die, I will opt for a fast disintegration thru fire, but if that is not to be - then any of the other outcomes is just fine by me since I don`t plan to hang around to find out.

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:38 am

Hmmmmmm...... there is something in the new member's sentence structure, topics and style that remind me of MattMSV7. The "Joining date" was April the 1st. :D

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby TJrandom » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:31 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Hmmmmmm...... there is something in the new member's sentence structure, topics and style that remind me of MattMSV7. The "Joining date" was April the 1st. :D


What are ya saying... that there is life after death? :lol:

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Nobrot » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:09 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:Hmmmmmm...... there is something in the new member's sentence structure, topics and style that remind me of MattMSV7. The "Joining date" was April the 1st. :D

[Cough]
https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/i-find-a-clash-in-a-secular-based-value-system./

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Cadmusteeth » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:14 pm

It seems the issues you're bringing up, Omni, has less to do with secularism, and more to do with coming to terms with subjective morality.

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:00 pm

Nobrot wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:Hmmmmmm...... there is something in the new member's sentence structure, topics and style that remind me of MattMSV7. The "Joining date" was April the 1st. :D

[Cough]
https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/i-find-a-clash-in-a-secular-based-value-system./


Fair enough. Well spotted. :D

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Gord » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:21 am

Nobrot wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:Hmmmmmm...... there is something in the new member's sentence structure, topics and style that remind me of MattMSV7. The "Joining date" was April the 1st. :D

[Cough]
https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/i-find-a-clash-in-a-secular-based-value-system./

Religious Forums - Error
The requested thread could not be found.

:frown:
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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Gord » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:25 am

"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Nobrot » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:29 am

Gord wrote:https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/i-find-a-clash-in-a-secular-based-value-system.196882/
https://able2know.org/topic/377994-1

That's the one.

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Gord » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:41 am

At least he's found people willing to talk to him about it as if it's a real thing.
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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:48 am

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads ... em.196882/
https://able2know.org/topic/377994-1
Nobrot wrote:That's the one.


"Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by MattMVS7, Friday at 8:23 PM."

Thanks guys. MatttMVS7 is a creature of habit. He thinks he is clever, using sock puppets but he can't break from his ongoing insane delusions, limited vocabulary and writing style.

For those of you who are wondering, MarkG5, Cobalt6 and Matt MSV7 is the same troll, who keeps pestering science and skeptic forums, such as ours. His most infamous trolling event was asking "if a nerd could strangle a bully with his legs." He also posts videos of himself dribbling on himself. :lol:

Here is MattMSV7 explaining his insanity issues, that another person copied before MattMSV7 deleted all his videos. Everything he says in this video is a complete lie.
[BBvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuilagUcLvA[/BBvideo]

Case Closed / Troll Identified

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Nobrot » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:30 am

If a blond piece with magnificent thighage could strangle a bully with her legs

Ok, possibly there's something lost in translation but I'm thinking Sissy Spacek's thighs crushing my skull as my last round hits Roy Batty right in the nads.

eta, is Sissy Spacek the skinny one? I can't remember. An enquiring ming need to know.

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:42 am

Nobrot wrote: eta, is Sissy Spacek the skinny one? I can't remember. An enquiring ming need to know.

When Carrie the movie came out, the school playground rumour was that Billy Mumy from Lost in Space had a sex change and became Sissy Spacek. :D
same person 2.jpg
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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Nobrot » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:50 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Nobrot wrote: eta, is Sissy Spacek the skinny one? I can't remember. An enquiring ming need to know.

When Carrie the movie came out, the school playground rumour was that Billy Mumy from Lost in Space had a sex change and became Sissy Spacek. :D same person 2.jpg

The catholic school I attended had a carmelite infestation. Any such talk would invoke much wielding of the swishy stick.

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Omniverse » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:03 pm

If I believed in an eternal blissful afterlife, then that would be no different than a situation where I am all optimistic, happy, and loving towards myself and others knowing that I and everyone else are all going to get rich, get whatever we want, and have all the fancy thing we want. But upon discovering that this is not the case (discovering that an eternal blissful afterlife does not exist), then that would be no different than a situation where I give up on the whole concept of loving myself and loving others and where I would think it would be better off if we all just rotted and decayed away since all we are is poor trash and we don't all get to be the rich and wealthy individuals of our dreams.

I see the same things applying here as well. In other words, I see no value in human beings including myself and I would think it would be better off if we all just never existed in the first place since that is all we are anyway. We are all just biological material bound to rot and decay which no longer gives us human value (a superior value of dignity), but instead an inferior value that is nothing more than that of the type of value that mere transient materialistic things have that are bound to rot, decay, and break down such as a car, a bicycle, etc. It is our destiny and it is where we are all heading anyway. If all we are is biological beings here for a short while just to rot and decay away and we are not the eternal divine blissful beings that new age spiritual traditions make us out to be, then that, to me, takes away all human value and instead replaces it with the inferior value that mere transient materialistic things have.
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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby Cadmusteeth » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:26 pm

You're not fooling anyone dude.

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Re: I find a clash in a secular based value system

Postby TJrandom » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:35 pm

We need a sentence word counter and ability to delete any sentence that is longer than say, 25 words. Inferior value indeed... 53, 81, 8, 35, 60, 12, 57. Give it up Omniverse.


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