The threat of artificial intelligence??

How should we think about weird things?
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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:39 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:you have to travel at an extremely high fraction of light speed. Maybe 99.9999%.


Incorrect.

There are relativistic effects with any velosity. Remember the sinkronized clocks experiment?

Going at just 1/10 LS haz a significant effect.

If you go too fast, you run the risk uv reaching the end uv the universe befor you know it.
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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:59 pm

You mean to block or nullify inertial mass. Which is one of those things that is clearly against the laws of physics.

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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby ElectricMonk » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:19 am

Not necessarily.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:25 am

JO 753 wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:you have to travel at an extremely high fraction of light speed. Maybe 99.9999%.


Incorrect.

There are relativistic effects with any velosity. Remember the sinkronized clocks experiment?

Going at just 1/10 LS haz a significant effect.

If you go too fast, you run the risk uv reaching the end uv the universe befor you know it.


There are, indeed, relativistic effects at any speed. But you were talking of very, very big effects. So 99.9999% of light speed would be required.

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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:56 am

gps satelites correct for time shifts to give us the necessary accuracy.
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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:23 am

Yes they do, Bobbo, but those satellites can allow for one part in a billion. Jo was talking of absolutely MASSIVE time dilation. That requires a velocity so close to light speed that the difference is miniscule.

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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:34 am

Off Topic

Steve Klinko, concerning his claims regarding consciousness, made the following claim
"Scientists and mathematicians have often claimed that as a computer becomes more complex it will eventually become self aware".

I went looking and I can't find one scientist or mathematician who has ever claimed this. It is my opinion this is an urban rumour lifted from Science fiction films , Colossus : The Forbin Project, Dark Star, The Terminator, Demon Seed, and so on. :D

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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:41 am

Matt: not off topic. Thats very close to what I said very recently....this thread or elsewhere. Ha, ha....... WITH a sentient computer, we would be able to establish a threshold number of connections required for consciousness? Given a "program" would be in place to run the simulation ((or would it be real?)) it might be far fewer connections than required by analogue? But yeah.... trillions of connection could well be necessary but not sufficient for consciousness..........but I do assume what is missing from lack of hormones and archetypal memory could be provided by programming? I mean...what else is evolution and dna?
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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:44 am

Lance: Jo was specifically talking about 80% LS, which is massive, but not in the 99's. He posts as if he is familiar with the Math and as I ignorantly commented: 80% LS is incredibly fast and when it comes to standard rockets....when I say hooge amount of fuel I mean more fuel than is in the Universe?....I think I read something like that.

But it all does come down to the Math............aka: Not me.
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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:16 am

80% of light speed is enough to create a measurable but small time dilation effect**. Nothing like as big as Jo was talking about.

Time dilation of the order that he mentioned is probably, in practical terms, forever out of reach. There is no way I know of, even by the most way out theory, that a space vessel can be accelerated to 99.9999% of light speed, and definitely no way it could then be decelerated back to relative rest.

** The amount of time dilation at 80% is 1 to 1.66. That is, one minute passes for the person on the vessel at that speed, for 1.66 minutes passing from the point of view of the person at rest.

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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:22 am

How many "9's" before you start to gain mass, or stretch, or whatever it is that makes LS impossible?...and I have two memories that conflict: that light can travel at LS because it has no mass......which is why anything with a mass cannot... but photons have mass? Particles vs waves?

I'm confused..........and still not using math.
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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:33 am

Light travels at light speed because photons are "created" already at light speed. The prohibition is for anything to accelerate to light speed. Yes, having mass is a problem. If something with mass is travelling and the attempt is made to accelerate it to light speed, it will accelerate steadily, but gain mass. The rate at which it gains mass increases exponentially as it approaches light speed. According to Einstein's math, to reach light speed, it would require infinite energy.

This principle is tested empirically with nuclear accelerators. These accelerate particles with some mass till they reach a very high fraction of light speed. But they never reach light speed, no matter how much energy is put in, because it would take infinite energy.

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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:45 am

anyway to explain how simply gaining speed adds to mass? I can totally not understand if its a time/space issue...but not if mass is a function of particles?

Or how photons "start" at light speed?

infinite is "a huge amount"...seems way too much about Einstein is about infinity and such.
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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:59 am

Just as an aside, I tried to find out time dilation at 99.9999% of light speed, but the calculator complained. It is somewhere near 1 to 400. Still nowhere near enough for Jo's proposal.

How do particles gain mass with speed ? I do not know. But Einstein math requires it, and experiments confirm it.
A photon is "created" when an electron drops from a high energy state to a lower state, such as when atoms are heated into that high energy state, .like in the filament of a light bulb, or a hot atom in the sun. It is already at light speed in the indsant of creation and that appears to be a property of the photon. It cannot exist not travelling at that speed.

On infinity.
You are correct. It is a huge amount. In fact it is impossibly big. That impossibility is why it is never reached.

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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:11 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:It is already at light speed in the indsant of creation

That violates my Newtonian soul. But .... since it makes no difference in my life, I'll accept it.
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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby Poodle » Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:14 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:anyway to explain how simply gaining speed adds to mass? I can totally not understand if its a time/space issue...but not if mass is a function of particles?

Or how photons "start" at light speed?

infinite is "a huge amount"...seems way too much about Einstein is about infinity and such.

Because e=mc2. You pour energy in, but c (let alone c2) cannot increase. There's only one thing left - m must increase. And if a massless particle such as a photon gains ANY amount of energy, it will instantaneously travel at the speed of light (same equation but lose the mass part - e=c2).

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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:25 pm

WOW! It was right there. Thanks Poodle. I kid myself I can actually understand that. On totally sober reflection...its only the formula that makes sense....not the transubstantiation.
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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby Poodle » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:11 pm

You're right, bobbo - relativistic phenomena are weird. But so are the rules of cricket.

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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:55 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Just as an aside, I tried to find out time dilation at 99.9999% of light speed, but the calculator complained. It is somewhere near 1 to 400. Still nowhere near enough for Jo's proposal.
I often suffer this problem, calculating if the bus will come on time, or wondering if the tea-lady pushed her tea-trolley at near light speed, would the tea remain hot? Would the tea & biscuits increase in mass? Therefore I use the online Special Relativity calculator. :D

Special relativity (time dilation) Calculator Page
http://keisan.casio.com/exec/system/1224059993

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Re: The threat of artificial intelligence??

Postby OlegTheBatty » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:06 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:anyway to explain how simply gaining speed adds to mass? I can totally not understand if its a time/space issue...but not if mass is a function of particles?

Or how photons "start" at light speed?

infinite is "a huge amount"...seems way too much about Einstein is about infinity and such.


Particles with non-zero rest mass require an infinite amount of energy to accelerate to lightspeed. Particles with zero rest mass require zero energy to accelerate to lightspeed - they are always at that speed.

Photons have momentum, and therefore, mass. That's how a light sail works. They have zero rest mass.

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