Where do I begin?

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Where do I begin?

Postby MattMVS7 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:54 pm

Note: This is a different situation. Rather than looking at both sides of a debate, I am asking for resources that will educate me. I am asking where to begin in educating myself. That is unlike my previous topic.

I apologize in regards to the previous topic I have made. I was just having a bad crisis in my life at the moment. The crisis has passed now. I am actually a cool, calm, and respected individual in real life. I would never harm anyone or anything of the sort. Now I lack education. I know very little about science, logic, reasoning, and basically life itself.

It is for this very reason why I am agnostic about the existence of the afterlife. I realize the skeptics here would say that this is the wrong position to take and that I should instead be a full materialist. Someone who should dismiss the concept of the afterlife as though there is no possibility of it being real.

But I wish to educate myself both in the area of skepticism as well as in the area of those who think the afterlife does exist. I wish to educate myself to see if the skeptics really are right. I wish to see for myself if I really do have every reason to dismiss the afterlife or if I instead have every reason to think the afterlife does exist.

So where do I begin? Could someone explain and give me links to things that will educate me?
Last edited by MattMVS7 on Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:58 pm

Welcome back, MattMVS7. Am short on time right now but would offer this to peruse. It holds much information. :)
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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:32 pm

by MattMVS7
Sat May 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Forum: Skepticism and Critical Thinking
Topic: Trying to decide whether to be a materialist or believer
Replies: 451
Views: 2787

You've already run this grift. DECIDE on way or the other ...... or learn to accept ambiguity.

Easy.
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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby MattMVS7 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:48 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:by MattMVS7
Sat May 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Forum: Skepticism and Critical Thinking
Topic: Trying to decide whether to be a materialist or believer
Replies: 451
Views: 2787

You've already run this grift. DECIDE on way or the other ...... or learn to accept ambiguity.

Easy.

This is a different situation. Rather than looking at both sides of a debate, I am asking for resources that will educate me. I am asking where to begin in educating myself. That is unlike my previous topic.

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:12 pm

BS. You have more education than 99.0% of people who have ever existed. 99% of them managed to conclude or get comfortable.

If you are being honest, most likely you want more information rather than finally decide. You know, when you don't want to make a decision, form a committee to research the issue some more.

Stop BS'ing yourself.

Relax, take a few deep breaths, close your eyes, evaluate your body...find any tense muscle and relax it. Think of a beautiful day, think of nice relaxing music. What do you think?

There it is.
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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby MattMVS7 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:22 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:BS. You have more education than 99.0% of people who have ever existed. 99% of them managed to conclude or get comfortable.

If you are being honest, most likely you want more information rather than finally decide. You know, when you don't want to make a decision, form a committee to research the issue some more.

Stop BS'ing yourself.

Relax, take a few deep breaths, close your eyes, evaluate your body...find any tense muscle and relax it. Think of a beautiful day, think of nice relaxing music. What do you think?

There it is.

So you are saying that I already have all the education and whatnot I need to decide. If that really is the case and that there is no need for any further education, then I would have to remain an agnostic. But since the skeptics would tell me that agnosticism is the wrong position to take, then that is why I asked if I needed more education since the skeptics would tell me that the reason why I remain an agnostic is because I am uneducated and that if I were to be educated like these skeptics are, then I should become a full materialist like them.

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:26 pm

You are trolling.
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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby MattMVS7 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:30 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You are trolling.

I'm not.

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:04 pm

MattMVS7 wrote: But since the skeptics would tell me that agnosticism is the wrong position to take, then that is why I asked if I needed more education since the skeptics would tell me that the reason why I remain an agnostic is because I am uneducated and that if I were to be educated like these skeptics are, then I should become a full materialist like them.

There is no evidence for a deity, but the existence of a deity cannot be disproven. Agnosticism is rational.
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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:16 pm

MattMVS7 wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You are trolling.

I'm not.

Trolling yourself then. Repetitive. Whining. Refusing to accept what your own intellect shows you.

Read what interests you. Enjoy the ride. Certainty is for fools.
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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby MattMVS7 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:20 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
MattMVS7 wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You are trolling.

I'm not.

Trolling yourself then. Repetitive. Whining. Refusing to accept what your own intellect shows you.

Read what interests you. Enjoy the ride. Certainty is for fools.

That whining was all in the past like I said. I was just having a life crisis. That is done and over with.

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby Poodle » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:58 pm

Hi again, Matt. I do hope you're a bit more settled now.

Oleg managed to slip the spot-on attitude in (a little above here). There's nothing wrong with a bit of agnosticism. In fact, it's the default position of any skeptic. Agnostic means not knowing, and that's the entire point behind skepticism - until you CAN know, there's no position to take on any subject except a healthy "if you claim that then prove it" stance. It works equally well whether you're talking to wooists or hard-line technoworshippers.

So - if that's the attitude you are going to take, you're a lot further forward than you were last time we heard from you. Good for you.

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby MattMVS7 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:13 pm

Poodle wrote:Hi again, Matt. I do hope you're a bit more settled now.

Oleg managed to slip the spot-on attitude in (a little above here). There's nothing wrong with a bit of agnosticism. In fact, it's the default position of any skeptic. Agnostic means not knowing, and that's the entire point behind skepticism - until you CAN know, there's no position to take on any subject except a healthy "if you claim that then prove it" stance. It works equally well whether you're talking to wooists or hard-line technoworshippers.

So - if that's the attitude you are going to take, you're a lot further forward than you were last time we heard from you. Good for you.

The thing is though is that skeptics are saying that the afterlife is no different than the toothfairy and Santa Claus. That they are 99.99% unlikely to be real. So that to me is not an agnostic position. That is a 99.99% materialistic stance. But I am starting out as an agnostic until further education into the skeptical world to see for myself if the skeptics really are right or if they are wrong.

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby Poodle » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:22 pm

MattMVS7 wrote:... The thing is though is that skeptics are saying that the afterlife is no different than the toothfairy and Santa Claus. That they are 99.99% unlikely to be real. So that to me is not an agnostic position. That is a 99.99% materialistic stance. But I am starting out as an agnostic until further education into the skeptical world to see for myself if the skeptics really are right or if they are wrong.


Well, I wouldn't agree with anyone who said that any of those things is 99.9% unlikely to be real, There's absolutely no way of measuring such likelihood. But I can say that I have never seen nor been presented with any evidence at all for the existence of fairies of any kind, saints who survived death, or any other survival after death. I'd be tickled pink if the tooth fairy physically turned up to prove me wrong, but I doubt it will. Just doubt, with no degree of doubt expressed.

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:10 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You are trolling.
I'm with Bobbo on this matter. This is pure trolling and bad acting.

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby MattMVS7 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:13 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You are trolling.
I'm with Bobbo on this matter. This is pure trolling and bad acting.

I don't understand...

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby Paul Anthony » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:20 pm

I don't know which atheists you are listening to, but if they're telling you they are sure, be skeptical of that, too.

People who say "always" or "never" are usually wrong at least part of the time.

Being an agnostic means never having to say "Oh {!#%@}, I was wrong!" :D
People who say ALWAYS and NEVER are usually wrong, part of the time.
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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:32 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You are trolling.
Matthew Ellard wrote:I'm with Bobbo on this matter. This is pure trolling and bad acting.
MattMVS7 wrote:I don't understand...
Yes you do. The next couple pages of posts will confirm that Bobbo and I are right.

Are you still having a discussion with RacerX on the other forum? :lol:

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby MattMVS7 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:36 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You are trolling.
Matthew Ellard wrote:I'm with Bobbo on this matter. This is pure trolling and bad acting.
MattMVS7 wrote:I don't understand...
Yes you do. The next couple pages of posts will confirm that Bobbo and I are right.

Are you still having a discussion with RacerX on the other forum? :lol:

That behavior of mine that you are talking about here was all in the past like I said. I was just having a life crisis. Since that crisis is over, then that behavior is also over with as well.

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby Cadmusteeth » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:43 pm

MattMVS7 wrote:I apologize in regards to the previous topic I have made. I was just having a bad crisis in my life at the moment. The crisis has passed now. I am actually a cool, calm, and respected individual in real life. I would never harm anyone or anything of the sort. Now I lack education. I know very little about science, logic, reasoning, and basically life itself.

It is for this very reason why I am agnostic about the existence of the afterlife. I realize the skeptics here would say that this is the wrong position to take and that I should instead be a full materialist. Someone who should dismiss the concept of the afterlife as though there is no possibility of it being real.

But I wish to educate myself both in the area of skepticism as well as in the area of those who think the afterlife does exist. I wish to educate myself to see if the skeptics really are right. I wish to see for myself if I really do have every reason to dismiss the afterlife or if I instead have every reason to think the afterlife does exist.

So where do I begin? Could someone explain and give me links to things that will educate me?

I think before you look at the links, you should reflect on how strongly you feel about your beliefs if you haven't already. If they're tightly held, it can affect how you view opposing viewpoints and comunicate with those who have them.
(I've found that both sides of the divide can have views that they can't discuss well because they feel very strongly about them. And have no sense of objectivity when talking about them.)

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby MattMVS7 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:46 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:
MattMVS7 wrote:I apologize in regards to the previous topic I have made. I was just having a bad crisis in my life at the moment. The crisis has passed now. I am actually a cool, calm, and respected individual in real life. I would never harm anyone or anything of the sort. Now I lack education. I know very little about science, logic, reasoning, and basically life itself.

It is for this very reason why I am agnostic about the existence of the afterlife. I realize the skeptics here would say that this is the wrong position to take and that I should instead be a full materialist. Someone who should dismiss the concept of the afterlife as though there is no possibility of it being real.

But I wish to educate myself both in the area of skepticism as well as in the area of those who think the afterlife does exist. I wish to educate myself to see if the skeptics really are right. I wish to see for myself if I really do have every reason to dismiss the afterlife or if I instead have every reason to think the afterlife does exist.

So where do I begin? Could someone explain and give me links to things that will educate me?

I think before you look at the links, you should reflect on how strongly you feel about your beliefs if you haven't already. If they're tightly held, it can affect how you view opposing viewpoints and comunicate with those who have them.
(I've found that both sides of the divide can have views that they can't discuss well because they feel very strongly about them. And have no sense of objectivity when talking about them.)

The mindset I am in as of now is a strongly unbiased mindset. I am an agnostic as of right now searching for the truth that will eventually either lead me to materialism, thinking the afterlife does exist, or still remaining an agnostic.

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:48 pm

Paul Anthony wrote:Being an agnostic means never having to say "Oh {!#%@}, I was wrong!" :D

Thats totally wrong.

You are totally wrong to be agnostic over that which is perfectly clear and obvious. Religion is BS....and if you are agnostic on that issue...you are wrong. Now....to be epistemologically pure....should you ever die and dog does appear to you....he won't be anything like anything contemplated on this blue orb.

Don't be misled (I'm speaking to all others) by Poodle. the guy is just too nice. I suspect if I showed up at this door at 9PM and demanded he served me a glass of rhubarb wine, than he would cheerfully provide. You can't trust guys that well grounded.

Poodle: prove me wrong. What percentage of doubt do you give the claim that there is a 9 foot unicorn in your left front pocket?..... ..... Only 99%? How many more 9's would you honestly add?

How many 9's does it take to spell BS?
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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:50 pm

Maybe this thread by Shen1986 would be helpful. It deals with NDEs and "afterlife". You might wish to look up more of his work. Just go to his profile and search his posts for keywords.
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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:53 pm

The mindset I am in as of now is a strongly unbiased mindset. /// No such thing. The challenge is to identify and deal with your bias(es).

I am an agnostic as of right now //// I don't believe you. You are either trolling or a believer who for whatever reason wants to test your faith.

searching for the truth /// BS. In philosophy.....there is no truth except existentialism. That being true....... whats left is choices.

that will eventually either lead me to materialism, thinking the afterlife does exist, or still remaining an agnostic. /// You got that backwards.....but why the supposed either/or dichotomy??? Ha, ha......total troll BS.l
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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby MattMVS7 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:56 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The mindset I am in as of now is a strongly unbiased mindset. /// No such thing. The challenge is to identify and deal with your bias(es).

I am an agnostic as of right now //// I don't believe you. You are either trolling or a believer who for whatever reason wants to test your faith.

searching for the truth /// BS. In philosophy.....there is no truth except existentialism. That being true....... whats left is choices.

that will eventually either lead me to materialism, thinking the afterlife does exist, or still remaining an agnostic. /// You got that backwards.....but why the supposed either/or dichotomy??? Ha, ha......total troll BS.l

An unbiased mindset is where you have a complete open mind to both sides of a debate. Such a mindset obviously exists and it is the mindset I have as of now. Until either side of the debate becomes obviously right or wrong to you, no decision will be made as of yet and you will still remain open minded (unbiased).

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:02 pm

An unbiased mindset /// SECOND TIME: unbiased does not exist.

is where you have a complete open mind to both sides of a debate. /// That can only mean you are lying to yourself or are totally uninformed. Need to read about the subject in English???? THAT is a bias. Deal with it.

Such a mindset obviously exists /// No it doens't. Was does exist in oversupply is BS liars and the uninformed....usually waiting to be told what to think. The amount and sugar and roses to make it go down, ..... varies.

and it is the mindset I have as of now. /// No.

Until either side of the debate becomes obviously right or wrong to you, no decision will be made as of yet and you will still remain open minded (unbiased). //// .............or........... too lazy or stupid to accept what is apparent and true.

Denial....... its not just a river in Egypt.
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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby MattMVS7 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:13 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:An unbiased mindset /// SECOND TIME: unbiased does not exist.

is where you have a complete open mind to both sides of a debate. /// That can only mean you are lying to yourself or are totally uninformed. Need to read about the subject in English???? THAT is a bias. Deal with it.

Such a mindset obviously exists /// No it doens't. Was does exist in oversupply is BS liars and the uninformed....usually waiting to be told what to think. The amount and sugar and roses to make it go down, ..... varies.

and it is the mindset I have as of now. /// No.

Until either side of the debate becomes obviously right or wrong to you, no decision will be made as of yet and you will still remain open minded (unbiased). //// .............or........... too lazy or stupid to accept what is apparent and true.

Denial....... its not just a river in Egypt.

I am going to explain to you why I have the mindset I do. Tell me what is wrong with it:

First off is in regards to Ian Stevenson's and Jim Tucker's research on reincarnation. These are just anecdotes. Anecdotes can be interpreted either way which is why I remain agnostic in this situation. I am unsure as to whether reincarnation really is going on here or if the materialists are right in that there is a materialistic explanation. There is no way to tell with anecdotes.

You might be thinking that to be open to any other interpretation other than the materialistic interpretation of the anecdotes would be no different than being open to the possibility of fairies, Santa Claus, etc. However, I don't think it is like that. This is because reincarnation does seem like the best possible alternative explanation besides materialism. It is for this very reason why I remain open minded with these anecdotes.

That also applies to all the other anecdotes such as with near death experiences and such. Second is this whole idea that the researchers are crackpots and are conducting their whole research all wrong. I am open to that possibility. However, I am also open to the possibility that they are not as skeptics say they are because other people do say they are well-trained and trusted researchers.

So taking all of this together, you can see why I am agnostic.

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:27 pm

MattMVS7 wrote:So taking all of this together, you can see why I am agnostic.

No, I don't see it, unless you define agnostic as not ABSOLUTELY convinced of a likelihood. Absolute cannot be reached. Asymptotically, only an idiot, dupe, charlatan believes in reincarnation. To be agnostic on such an issue: is to be wrong.....asymptotically speaking. I can live with the point infinity 9 sequence.

If you are agnostic about reincarnation, then you are agnostic about a unicorn living in your vest pocket.

Just .................... look.
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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby MattMVS7 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:39 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
MattMVS7 wrote:So taking all of this together, you can see why I am agnostic.

No, I don't see it, unless you define agnostic as not ABSOLUTELY convinced of a likelihood. Absolute cannot be reached. Asymptotically, only an idiot, dupe, charlatan believes in reincarnation. To be agnostic on such an issue: is to be wrong.....asymptotically speaking. I can live with the point infinity 9 sequence.

If you are agnostic about reincarnation, then you are agnostic about a unicorn living in your vest pocket.

Just .................... look.

Like I said, I don't see the non-materialistic explanation of those anecdotes of reincarnation as being no different than being open minded to things like unicorns, fairies, Santa Claus, etc. This is, again, because reincarnation does seem like the best possible alternative explanation besides materialism.

If, for example, you heard an anecdote that your mother or father was lying on the ground bleeding with a knife lying on the ground, then there would be two possible explanations. Both of which are just as likely. The first explanation is that someone stabbed him/her. The second is that he/she stabbed his/herself.

Both interpretations are just as likely. It does not make the 2nd interpretation similar to a situation of being open minded to unicorns and fairies. This is what it is like with the anecdotes for near death experiences and reincarnation. Both the materialistic explanation and the non-materialistic explanation seem just as likely to me.

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:49 pm

Stabbing yourself has been seen before. Unicorns and reincaration: NEVER seen.

See the difference?
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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby MattMVS7 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:00 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Stabbing yourself has been seen before. Unicorns and reincaration: NEVER seen.

See the difference?

But as for the materialistic idea that the brain produces consciousness and that consciousness does not survive death, some people would say that there is only a correlation between brain and consciousness while others would say that we know for sure that the brain produces consciousness. I am open to both sides which is why I am agnostic. It doesn't matter what materialists say to back their claims, there will be arguments just as equally powerful from the other side of the debate.

Until it gets to the point where I can see which side of the debate is obviously wrong and emotionally attached to their worldview, I cannot yet conclude anything.

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:08 am

Yeah..... and idiots can't tie their own shoes, but smile when others do it for them. What part of "NEVER" do you ignore?
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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby MattMVS7 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:16 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Yeah..... and idiots can't tie their own shoes, but smile when others do it for them. What part of "NEVER" do you ignore?

Like I said, it could only be a correlation between brain and consciousness that is being seen here.

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby Flash » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:56 am

MattMVS7 wrote:
So where do I begin? Could someone explain and give me links to things that will educate me?

Yes of course, education is very important. I started mine with copies of Playboy and Penthouse when I was twelve. This way, I also learned a lot about human physiology which ultimately led me to learning everything about the Universe and beyond.

Now I just sit here typing posts all night...helping others. :gum:
When I feel like exercising, I just lie down until the feeling goes away. Paul Terry

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:39 am

MattMVS7 wrote:So taking all of this together, you can see why I am agnostic.

Actually, your whole "argument" concerning the afterlife, has be lifted, as a joke, from "character re-spawning" from the video game. The Legend of Zelda.

This choice of games is odd as you are 28 years old and not a child. :D

http://www.zeldainformer.com/news/the-m ... f-mattmvs7

The amount of leg pulling going on in this thread, is very substantial..... :D
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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby Gord » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:04 am

I don't get it. What skeptic told you agnosticism is "the wrong position to take and that [you] should instead be a full materialist"? To quote the friggin' internet, an agnostic is: "a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God."

I don't see how anyone could argue that those words couldn't apply to a skeptic.

And as for materialism: "the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications; the doctrine that consciousness and will are wholly due to material agency."

It's possible to be an agnostic and a materialist, to accept as likely, for instance, both that the existence or nature of anything beyond material phenomena is unknowable, and that consciousness and will are wholly due to material agency. One can predict that consciousness is explainable by purely materialistic mechanics without postulating anything at all about the supernatural.
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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby Poodle » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:38 am

Matt -

And there I was being nice to you. I've looked around at your latest batch of posts and I see that you didn't, in fact, take my previous advice. So here it is again - go and see your doctor. You are once again presenting multiple personnae on this forum. The normal technique is to spread the personnae over different forums. Then you don't get caught out.

Despite what other members think, I know you're not a troll. You couldn't be. No troll is so stupendously bad at trolling as are you. You are either a 15-year-old idiot playing for giggles or you are mentally ill, and I don't believe a 15-year-old could be so consistently inconsistent. Stop pretending that you think silence is music, stop pretending that you have a future in the creative side of things ... just stop pretending. Go and get your thought processes sorted, otherwise Bobbo the Bad will chase you.

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:49 am

Hang on everyone. He has "half admitted" to being a troll in the other thread.

His current trolling claim, is to have lost the ability to compose music because of his "personal crisis".

This is the same "personal crisis" that he has repeatedly copied and posted on many other forums in the last couple months.

Last night he composed a "composition" for me and loaded it up on to you-tube. ( A very rapid cure?) :mrgreen:

viewtopic.php?f=32&p=518400#p518400

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:51 am

Poodle wrote: You are either a 15-year-old idiot playing for giggles ......
He's 28 years old and just a troll. :D

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Re: Where do I begin?

Postby Poodle » Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:03 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Poodle wrote: You are either a 15-year-old idiot playing for giggles ......
He's 28 years old and just a troll. :D


Not possible. No self-respecting 28-year-old plays Legend of Zelda.

EDIT: Found it. In one forum, he says "No, I am not young". Twisted internet logic applies - no 28-year-old would say that. Between 15 and 20, I reckon.


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