Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue May 26, 2015 12:58 am

davidroemer wrote:We can find out very easily which one of us is being insincere. There are two questions that we are conflicted about. There is no point in going on if we can't resolve these two points. If a moderator is assigned, that will help. A moderator will not allow non-responsive or meaningless comments. The moderator should have some knowledge of thermodynamics. These are the two questions:
1) Does a pendulum have a temperature?
2) Is the second law violated when stars evolve?



And: "How is a pendulum different from a box full of ping pong balls?"
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by Poodle » Tue May 26, 2015 1:01 am

davidroemer wrote:We can find out very easily which one of us is being insincere. There are two questions that we are conflicted about. There is no point in going on if we can't resolve these two points. If a moderator is assigned, that will help. A moderator will not allow non-responsive or meaningless comments. The moderator should have some knowledge of thermodynamics. These are the two questions:
1) Does a pendulum have a temperature?
2) Is the second law violated when stars evolve?


http://www.universitypressscholarship.com/.../search:downloadsearchresultaspd...

Sorry - that link doesn't work. Never mind - the answer is obviously yes.

And the other one is no.

You are arguing against the entire universe.

Note: DO excuse the terseness of my responses to your questions but, as you are fully aware, the more expansive responses have been provided for you all over the net. I suggest you read them.

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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by davidroemer » Tue May 26, 2015 1:22 am

I am arguing against you, Gord, and a few others. I am willing to investigate those two questions, but you are not. My suspicion is that you know on an unconscious level that a pendulum does not have a temperature and that the second law does not apply to the evolution of stars. This means the idea that biological evolution violates the second law is a mistake, and the AJP article disgraces every physicist in the U.S.
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by Poodle » Tue May 26, 2015 1:31 am

davidroemer wrote:I am arguing against you, Gord, and a few others. I am willing to investigate those two questions, but you are not. My suspicion is that you know on an unconscious level that a pendulum does not have a temperature and that the second law does not apply to the evolution of stars. This means the idea that biological evolution violates the second law is a mistake, and the AJP article disgraces every physicist in the U.S.


No, you are arguing against me, Gord, and the entire scientific establishment of Planet Earth. You do not understand the Laws of Thermodynamics. This means that any conclusions you draw are hogwash.

You have been informed many, many times where your errors lie, yet you insist upon your rectitude. And it's always someone else's fault, David, as you incessantly claim - again, all over the net. You are the proverbial "only one marching in step". You constantly attempt to redefine what constitutes a thermodynamic system, even though that definition is ridiculously simple. You are in error, David, and this crusade is doing you no good at all.

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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by Gord » Tue May 26, 2015 1:50 am

davidroemer wrote:I am arguing against you, Gord, and a few others.

That's odd, because after you said this:

davidroemer wrote:We can find out very easily which one of us is being insincere. There are two questions that we are conflicted about. There is no point in going on if we can't resolve these two points. If a moderator is assigned, that will help.

I tried to figure out who you were talking to, I went back looking for anyone who had mentioned sincerity. Turns out, only you did:

davidroemer wrote:If Barr was sincere, he would have tried to resolve our conflict with the help of a moderator. I asked for a moderator on the forum of the American Scientific Affiliation, but my request was refused. We should get a moderator here.

You're just talking to yourself, aren't you. :|

I am willing to investigate those two questions, but you are not. My suspicion is that you know on an unconscious level that a pendulum does not have a temperature and that the second law does not apply to the evolution of stars. This means the idea that biological evolution violates the second law is a mistake, and the AJP article disgraces every physicist in the U.S.

I have no doubt that a pendulum has a temperature -- I suspect very few people would, if they have ever seen a pendulum and if they've ever noticed a temperature before. Every time I've tried to put aside the conclusion that a pendulum has a temperature and start over, I end up with the answer, yes, of course a pendulum has a temperature. All physical systems do. It's an inherent property.

As for the evolution of stars: That's all about how a star changes over time. Of course the 2nd law applies to how stars change over time.

And of course the idea that biological evolution violates the 2nd law is a mistake, that's what the AJP article itself argues.

And we already have a moderator. He's just not the kind you want.
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by Gord » Tue May 26, 2015 1:51 am

Poodle wrote:You have been informed many, many times where your errors lie, yet you insist upon your rectitude.

"Rectitude" :tee-hee: *snort!*
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by xouper » Tue May 26, 2015 2:27 am

davidroemer wrote:This is the abstract of the Sewell article. He says the compensation theory is without logical merit.

It is widely argued that the spectacular local decreases in entropy that occurred on Earth as a result of the origin and evolution of life and the development of human intelligence are not inconsistent with the second law of thermodynamics, because the Earth is an open system and entropy can decrease in an open system, provided the decrease is compensated by entropy increases outside the system. I refer to this as the compensation argument, and I argue that it is without logical merit, amounting to little more than an attempt to avoid the extraordinary probabilistic difficulties posed by the assertion that life has originated and evolved by spontaneous processes. To claim that what has happened on Earth does not violate the fundamental natural principle behind the second law, one must instead make a more direct and difficult argument.

By considering the Boltzmann equation for an ideal gas, you can understand how absurd the Styer article is.

Nonsense. Contrary to what you claim, that Boltzmann equation (eq #3 in Styer's paper) is not for an ideal gas, it is the equation for the statistical mechanics definition of entropy.

And contrary to what you seem to think, it is evident from the rest of the paper that Sewell is not saying that the "compensation argument" means that such "compensation" does not happen, he is complaining that the compensation argument does not explain HOW evolution happens.

The problem of course is that Styer does not make any claim about how evolution happens, only that it does not violate the second law of thermodynamics.

Your objection to Styer's paper is unwarranted and I am not surprised no serious scientist takes your complaint seriously.

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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by davidroemer » Tue May 26, 2015 2:37 am

I initially asked to have a moderated discussion because I know how emotional people can get about this topic. My guess is that no physics expert was willing to be a moderator because every physics teacher knows I am right. I am going to hold Michael Sherman responsible for this fiasco. Sherman is engaging in the same misconduct that Yvette Clarke (D-NY) is engaging in, not to mention Rush Holt, who is now the CEO of the AAAS. I'm asking for a face to face meeting with Rush Holt who also has a PhD in physics.

Yvette Clarke, to remind you, is not telling me what she did with the documentation I gave her proving the AJP article is absurd.
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue May 26, 2015 3:11 am

davidroemer wrote:Michael Sherman responsible for this fiasco.

Who is Michael Sherman?

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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by Austin Harper » Tue May 26, 2015 3:33 am

1. I already explained the temperature question. Do you have a follow up question you would like to ask so I can baby step you through this?
2. No.
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by davidroemer » Tue May 26, 2015 5:17 am

All you did was give me the thermodynamic definition of temperature. You did not address my comment that a pendulum doesn't have a temperature. Are you familiar with the watch maker argument for God's existence? A pendulum is a simple kind of watch. A watch also does not have a temperature for the same reason a pendulum does not. Richard Dawkins quite correctly refutes the watchmaker argument by saying, "Who designed the designer?" But when a creationist says, the existence of watches violates the second law, atheists go bonkers. I wonder how Michael Sherman reacted when he read my allusion to Nazis. This group is behaving like a mob. This is the end of my letter to the CEO of the AAAS:

According to Thomas Aquinas, the primary principle of morality is that we are responsible for our actions. Moral laws are secondary principles. Our conscience tells us whether or not circumstances justify saying things that are untrue or ending someone’s life. In my opinion, there can never be a justification for pseudoscience. We don’t need to consult our consciences because we can always follow the moral law against lying.
Also, I don’t think there is such a thing as a small sin as opposed to a big sin because God is not injured when we do something wrong. This, I think, is the meaning of the exchange between Spencer Tracy, playing an American judge in the movie “Judgment at Nuremburg,” and Burt Lancaster, playing a Nazi judge:
Burt Lancaster: All those millions of people … I never thought it would come to that.
Spencer Tracy: It came to that when you sentenced an innocent man to death.
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue May 26, 2015 5:18 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Who is M.... Sherman?


Image?
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by davidroemer » Tue May 26, 2015 12:38 pm

The buckley-gore link below shows the way a person with character responds when they are insulted publicly. They don't ignore it and make jokes. I'm calling Michael Shermer a liar and saying this group is his mob. You can't sue me and you can't sock me in the face. What you can do is contact Lawrence Krauss, who is a physics professor and is on the Editorial board of Skeptics Society, and ask him to moderate this discussion.

http://www.pseudoscience123.com/resources/lawrence-krauss.pdf

http://www.pseudoscience123.com/resources/michael-shermer.pdf

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/08/video-of-the-day-gore-vidal-vs-william-f-buckley-in-1968/260581/
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 26, 2015 1:19 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:Who is M.... Sherman?


Image?

M4 scmbldggs!
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by davidroemer » Tue May 26, 2015 1:44 pm

Lawrence Krauss's email address is [REDACTED] and his telephone number is [REDACTED].
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Reason: Removed email address and telephone number.
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by xouper » Tue May 26, 2015 1:48 pm

davidroemer wrote:My guess is that no physics expert was willing to be a moderator because every physics teacher knows I am right. I am going to hold Michael Sherman [sic] responsible for this fiasco.
davidroemer wrote:I'm calling Michael Shermer a liar and saying this group is his mob. You can't sue me and you can't sock me in the face.

David Roemer is a textbook example of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crank

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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue May 26, 2015 2:26 pm

He reminds me a lot of what we learned of Santilli.
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by davidroemer » Tue May 26, 2015 3:00 pm

I am trying to get the AJP to retract an article that promotes misinformation about science. What are you trying to accomplish? Did Michael Shermer tell you to make sure you got the last word? Do you think you are helping the cause of atheism by taking my name off the first page of the website?
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue May 26, 2015 3:27 pm

Whut? :scratch:
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 26, 2015 3:30 pm

davidroemer wrote:I am trying to get the AJP to retract an article that promotes misinformation about science.

It would help if you knew what science is and why you don't know what science is.
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by xouper » Tue May 26, 2015 3:41 pm

davidroemer wrote:I am trying to get the AJP to retract an article that promotes misinformation about science.

Styer's paper does not promote misinformation about science, and that's why you have not been successful in your mission.

davidroemer wrote: What are you trying to accomplish?

Once Upon A Time, I had this fantasy that you could be reasoned with, but I have since learned otherwise, and now I am just writing for the benefit of the peanut gallery.

davidroemer wrote:Did Michael Shermer tell you to make sure you got the last word?

Nope. Shermer has not told me anything. I do not speak on his behalf. I speak only for myself.

davidroemer wrote:Do you think you are helping the cause of atheism by taking my name off the first page of the website?

I did not do that. What exactly are you complaining about anyway?

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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue May 26, 2015 3:43 pm

Do you think you are helping the cause of atheism by taking my name off the first page of the website?

Are you talking about the posting order and how it is displayed?

Please keep in mind that the newest post in any topic will be the one displayed for any subforum. And this one alone has many topics (over 2000 AFAIK) and much activity. It's constantly changing.


ETA (And what has this got to do with atheism again?)
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 26, 2015 3:48 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:

ETA (And what has this got to do with atheism again?)

It's more about ego and butthurt.
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by davidroemer » Tue May 26, 2015 3:56 pm

The latest post under "Skepticism and Critical Thinking" is displayed on the first page. This means "Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics" is displayed now with my name. The only way you can get me off the first page is to stop posting.

Richard Dawkins ridiculed creationists for saying evolution violates the second law. I ridiculed Dawkins because Dawkins said the sun did it. The AJP article agrees with Dawkins about the sun doing it and then performed an absurd calculation. This proves that Dawkins/AJP are idiots, which is one of the reasons I believe in God.
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by xouper » Tue May 26, 2015 4:19 pm

davidroemer wrote:The latest post under "Skepticism and Critical Thinking" is displayed on the first page. This means "Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics" is displayed now with my name. The only way you can get me off the first page is to stop posting.

Fascinating. It doesn't matter to me at all if your name is on the front page.

davidroemer wrote:Richard Dawkins ridiculed creationists for saying evolution violates the second law. I ridiculed Dawkins because Dawkins said the sun did it. The AJP article agrees with Dawkins about the sun doing it and then performed an absurd calculation.

Except that neither Dawkins nor Styer claim the sun causes biological evolution. Your complaint is without merit, and that's why your mission is a failure.

davidroemer wrote:... Dawkins/AJP are idiots, which is one of the reasons I believe in God.

That takes the prize for silliest reason ever for believing in God.

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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 26, 2015 4:30 pm

Don't google "davidroemer" images if you're at work.
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue May 26, 2015 4:44 pm

LOL, Gawd. But some jobs demand it!
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by davidroemer » Tue May 26, 2015 5:30 pm

The probability of getting the primary structure of hemoglobin from the random selection of amino acids is 20 to the 600th power. Since the second law has to do with probability, creationists say the second law is violated by the existence of proteins. They say the emergence of proteins means the entropy of Earth has decreased. This is nonsense. This is why I keep insisting that a pendulum or a watch does not have a temperature.

The AJP article repeats the error that the entropy of Earth decreased during evolution. It says this does not violate the second law because the law against entropy decreasing only applies to closed systems. The Earth is not a closed system because of the sun.

I think this is unintelligible. Sewell says that this is without "logical merit." The AJP article then performs a calculation with the Boltzmann equation for entropy proving the decrease in the entropy of Earth was compensated for by an increase in the entropy of outer space.

I believe in life after death, even though there is no evidence, because all religions teach it. The religion founded by Machiavelli, Thomas Jefferson, and Richard Dawkins say life ends in the grave, but these guys are jerks. I think I shared with you the quotation from Campbell's biology textbook about the mind-body problem. Campbell is a jerk.
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 26, 2015 5:32 pm

*beep*
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by Poodle » Tue May 26, 2015 5:52 pm

davidroemer wrote:Lawrence Krauss's email address is ...


As far as I can gather, these are not the publicly available contact details for Mr. Krauss. Why don't you be a good boy, David, and delete that post?

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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by davidroemer » Tue May 26, 2015 6:19 pm

I faxed and emailed the letter I sent to the CEO of AAAS to almost everyone of the members of the editorial board and have proof of delivery to 10 of them, for example,
http://www.pseudoscience123.com/resources/eugenie-scott.pdf

I did something wrong in publishing Krauss's contact info? Oh my, oh my! Do you realize I'v sent certified letters to the president of colleges telling them that the chairman of the physics department has poor character? I might very well have gotten one of them fired because he is no longer the chairman. He is David Grier of New York University. I don't want him to be the moderator of this discussion. Has anybody contacted Krauss yet? Has he refused? What does Michael Shermer say about all this?

Another thing you can do is contact your congressmen and ask them to ask Yvette Clarke (NY-9th district) what she did with the documentation I gave her proving the AJP article undermined the integrity of science in the United States. She doesn't even have to tell me. All she has to do is send me an email saying she is not interested in the matter.
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 26, 2015 6:35 pm

davidroemer wrote:I faxed and emailed the letter I sent to the CEO of AAAS to almost everyone of the members of the editorial board and have proof of delivery to 10 of them, for example,

...and proof of {!#%@} for every one of them.
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by davidroemer » Tue May 26, 2015 7:09 pm

All of the chairmen of the physics departments in the New York area are a bunch of yellow-bellies. I scheduled a talk and a meeting room and invited all of them to explain why the AJP article was absurd. No one accepted my invitation. I'm seeing the same level of cowardice on this forum. Has anyone wrote to their congressman? It is usually easy if you live in their district and log on to their website. Has anyone contacted Krauss? The other physicist on the board is Leonard Mlodinow at Cal Tech. Richard Olson is a professor of the history of science at Harvey Mudd College. William McComas is the director of science education at the University of Arkansas.
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 26, 2015 7:13 pm

It might not be cowardice on their part, but rather a complete lack of respect.
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by Austin Harper » Tue May 26, 2015 7:37 pm

davidroemer wrote:All you did was give me the thermodynamic definition of temperature. You did not address my comment that a pendulum doesn't have a temperature.

Ok, so you understand that temperature is defined by the average motion of the molocules (Temperature can be defined as T = mv2/3kB where T is the absolute temperature, m is the total mass of the gas, v is the average velocity of any individual molocule of the gas, and kB is the Boltzmann constant.) Now, is your pendulum made of molocules?
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by davidroemer » Tue May 26, 2015 7:38 pm

In the case of Prof. Richardson of New York University, the lack of respect was because I was only a high school teacher. This is from http://www.pseudoscience123.com

I got a Ph.D. in physics from New York University in 1971 and played squash there with a physics professor. I asked for his help in writing the article, and he suggested that I contact Professor Robert Richardson. I sent Dr. Richardson an email about my invitation to write an article and stated:
They use the equation S=klogW, but there is no justification for the use of Boltzmann’s constant for biological systems. Am I right?

He responded:
The k in S=klogW is just a question of units and has no physical significance. logW is dimensionless and S has the dimensions of energy divided by temperature. k makes them match. In the ‘right’ set of units k=1. Please send me your work as I am always interested.


I sent him a copy of the AJP article and my analysis. He responded:
I have spent some time with your work but am not able to make an informed comment. I do sometimes testify as an expert in court. But my rate is $400/hr portal to portal. I doubt that you can afford a day of my time.


Prof. Richardson’s response to my question gave me the confirmation I needed, and I submitted a paper (manuscript ID no. 25055) on February 24, 2012, to the AJP. The paper was rejected by an anonymous reviewer.
David Roemer

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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 26, 2015 8:08 pm

"anonymous" is Richardson's username here.
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by davidroemer » Tue May 26, 2015 8:18 pm

We don't know who the anonymous reviewer is. It could have been the author himself. If you read my submission, which is on the site, it is clear that I did not intend the article for publication. The purpose of my submission was to correct the mistake in the AJP article. David Jackson, the editor, should have sent this to the author. The author, then, would be obligated to respond to my criticism. L

Letter from David Jackson, editor of the AJP
This manuscript criticizes two articles on the relationship between entropy and biological evolution that were previously published in the American Journal of Physics. The manuscript fails to present valid and clear scientific arguments and is entirely unsuitable for publication.

The manuscript begins with a desultory sequence of statements that fail to present any sort of argument or indeed to bear any relation to the articles supposedly being critiqued: there is a discourse on the meanings of the terms “common descent,” “adaptation,” and “natural selection,” followed by two quotations of no apparent relevance. Then, perhaps most bizarrely, aspersions are cast on the expertise of three linguists who are not mentioned in the original articles. The author claims that “this is the kind of information” supplied in the two articles under critique. If the author wishes to supply examples of “the kind of misinformation” in these articles, he should cite examples from the articles, not from pieces that bear no discernible relationship to them.

In the entire manuscript, I can find only one substantive criticism, namely the sentence “Laymen interpret [the calculations in the articles] to mean that natural selection explains the complexity of life.” The articles in question are extremely explicit in describing what they do and do not claim. The purpose of both articles is to refute the argument often raised by creationists that claims that the second law of thermodynamics renders evolution by natural selection impossible. They do not make the positive claim attributed by the author. The first article, by Styer, is extremely explicit on this point (see item 4 in the Appendix). I see no evidence that any “layman” has fallen into the error that concerns the author.

After this paragraph, the author resumes his stream of irrelevant observations. The next several paragraphs do not contain any argument clear enough for me to respond to. I will simply conclude by pointing out that the author displays a lack of understanding of standard thermodynamics when he remarks that “a deck of playing cards has neither entropy nor temperature.” The laws of thermodynamics apply to all physical systems. Any time there is a meaningful split between “microstates” and “macrostates,” it makes sense to compute entropy.
David Roemer

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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 26, 2015 8:24 pm

And you think this is a reason to nuke Japan again?
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Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Post by xouper » Tue May 26, 2015 8:31 pm

davidroemer wrote:All of the chairmen of the physics departments in the New York area are a bunch of yellow-bellies. I scheduled a talk and a meeting room and invited all of them to explain why the AJP article was absurd. No one accepted my invitation.

I am not surprised they declined to listen to your nonsense. Perhaps if you go to each one of their offices in person to explain why they are all cowards, they might change their mind about you.

davidroemer wrote:Has anyone wrote to their congressman?

I'm amused that you think I should write to Congress to complain about a paper in a physics journal. Especially since I consider such a complaint to be without merit.

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