Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

How should we think about weird things?
davidroemer
BANNED
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Postby davidroemer » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:23 pm

What follows is the opening paragraph of the website http://www.pseudoscience123.com which contains all of my correspondence about this topic and references to new articles about this:

On May 1, 2010, the Catholic Truth published my review of a book by Richard Dawkins titled The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution. In my review, I ridicule Dawkins for ridiculing creationists for saying biological evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics. Thermodynamics has nothing to do with biological and stellar evolution. Those people who see a connection between the complexity of living organism and the second law don’t understand thermodynamics.
David Roemer

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27093
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Wild animal
Location: Transcona

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Gord » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:39 pm

Gord wrote:This...feels...familiar.... :|
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

davidroemer
BANNED
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby davidroemer » Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:56 pm

It should be familiar because I posted about this about two years ago. I was ridiculing Dawkins for his ideas about this topic when I found out about the American Journal of Physics article about the same topic. I'v been campaigning to get the AJP to retract this absurd article. The status now is that I am waiting for Congressman Ami Bera, who is on the Science, Space, and Technology Committee, to decide whether or not to see me about this scandal. My congressman is Yvette Clarke who told me some time ago that she would investigate the matter. Clarke has not told me about the results of the investigation. I consider the fact that no one here is trying to defend the AJP article as evidence, not that it is needed, the article is indefensible.
David Roemer

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 17914
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:22 pm

Second Law of Thermodynamics applies to closed systems.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27093
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Wild animal
Location: Transcona

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Gord » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:50 pm

davidroemer wrote:It should be familiar because I posted about this about two years ago. I was ridiculing Dawkins for his ideas about this topic when I found out about the American Journal of Physics article about the same topic.

And here's how that previous discussion went: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=17927&start=320

I'v been campaigning to get the AJP to retract this absurd article. The status now is that I am waiting for Congressman Ami Bera, who is on the Science, Space, and Technology Committee, to decide whether or not to see me about this scandal. My congressman is Yvette Clarke who told me some time ago that she would investigate the matter. Clarke has not told me about the results of the investigation. I consider the fact that no one here is trying to defend the AJP article as evidence, not that it is needed, the article is indefensible.

What does Yvette Clarke have to do with the American Journal of Physics? Or Ami Bera, for that matter? What even makes it a "scandal" in the first place?

The article has already been defended, not that it needed to be. You obsession with it seems bizarre and ridiculous.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

davidroemer
BANNED
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby davidroemer » Sun May 17, 2015 8:21 pm

It is a scandal when a peer-reviewed physics journal publishes an absurd article about religion, and it is the business of the U.S. Congress. I refer you to the "Sternberg_peer_review_controversy." There was a 27-page report written by a subcommittee of the House of Representatives in 2006: “Intolerance and the Politicization of Science at the Smithsonian: Smithsonian’s Top Officials Permit the Demotion and Harassment of Scientist Skeptical of Darwinian Evolution.”

The scientist was Richard Sternberg who was an editor of the peer-reviewed journal of the Biological Society of Washington. He published an article promoting ID, and was publicly criticized by the Biological Society of Washington. He could not be penalized because his day job was at the Smithsonian. His colleagues there did the dirty work.

What Sternberg did was certainly wrong. The article was a review of the different theories about the Cambrian explosion 54 million decades ago. The reference to ID came at the end of the article, and the peer-reviewers thought it was a harmless philosophical addendum that did not detract from the scientific value of the paper. Sternberg should have deleted this reference, or at the very least, advised his fellow editors about the article. He published the article behind the backs of his colleagues.

My website (http://www.pseudoscience123.com) has a letter to the current CEO of the American Association for the Advancement of Science and former congressman from New Jersey that explains matters further.
David Roemer

User avatar
gorgeous
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3336
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:25 pm

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby gorgeous » Mon May 18, 2015 3:20 am

peer review ---ha-------Now, an actual conspiracy, a “peer review ring” has been discovered by one scientific journal and exposed. Fred Barbash reports in the Washington Post:


A “peer review and citation ring” was apparently rigging the review process to get articles published.

You’ve heard of prostitution rings, gambling rings and extortion rings. Now there’s a “peer review ring.”

The publication is the Journal of Vibration and Control (JVC). It publishes papers with names like “Hydraulic engine mounts: a survey” and “Reduction of wheel force variations with magnetorheological devices.”

The field of acoustics covered by the journal is highly technical:

Analytical, computational and experimental studies of vibration phenomena and their control. The scope encompasses all linear and nonlinear vibration phenomena and covers topics such as: vibration and control of structures and machinery, signal analysis, aeroelasticity, neural networks, structural control and acoustics, noise and noise control, waves in solids and fluids and shock waves.

JVC is part of the SAGE group of academic publications.


Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/201 ... z3aSLjszXQ
---------------------------------------Wall Street Journal op-ed - Scitation - American Institute of ...
scitation.aip.org/content/aip/magazine/physi...

American Institute of Physics
---------------------- Wall Street Journal op-ed warning emphatically about problems with scientific peer review begins by summarizing an especially extensive case of scientific fraud (also outlined in a Physics Today Online News Pick):


Academic publishing was rocked by the news on July 8 that a company called Sage Publications is retracting 60 papers from its Journal of Vibration and Control, about the science of acoustics. The company said a researcher in Taiwan and others had exploited peer review so that certain papers were sure to get a positive review for placement in the journal. In one case, a paper's author gave glowing reviews to his own work using phony names.
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24200
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon May 18, 2015 4:12 am

gorgeous wrote:peer review ---ha-------Now, an actual conspiracy, a “peer review ring” has been discovered by one scientific journal and exposed. Fred Barbash reports in the Washington Post:


Isn't it good that a scientific journal discovered this fraud.

What is your point, again?

:D

davidroemer
BANNED
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby davidroemer » Mon May 18, 2015 12:48 pm

Yes, it was good that the fraudulence of the article promoting ID was exposed. I asked my congressman (Yvette Clarke, NY, 9th District) to investigate the fraudulent American Journal of Physics article rebutting the creationist idea that evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics. Her communications director initially refused to help me. But I sent him (Scott) documentation proving the article was fraudulent and we discussed sending it to the subcommittee that monitors the National Science Foundation. Yvette Clarke won't tell me what happened to the documentation. Did she consult a physicist who said the article is an embarrassment and she should not get involved? Did she send it to the Committee on Science, Space, and Technology? Did she decide it was none of the House of Representative's business?
David Roemer

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27093
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Wild animal
Location: Transcona

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Gord » Tue May 19, 2015 1:33 am

davidroemer wrote:The scientist was Richard Sternberg who was an editor of the peer-reviewed journal of the Biological Society of Washington. He published an article promoting ID, and was publicly criticized by the Biological Society of Washington. He could not be penalized because his day job was at the Smithsonian. His colleagues there did the dirty work.

He published an article without having it properly peer-reviewed. He was never penalized for it, but continually insists that he was.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27093
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Wild animal
Location: Transcona

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Gord » Tue May 19, 2015 1:34 am

davidroemer wrote:I asked my congressman (Yvette Clarke, NY, 9th District) to investigate the fraudulent American Journal of Physics article rebutting the creationist idea that evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics.

The article in the American Journal of Physics as not "fraudulent", and you have nothing to complain about. Instead, you are a crank who bothers politicians with his pet peeves that make no sense.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

davidroemer
BANNED
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby davidroemer » Tue May 19, 2015 5:54 pm

If I am a crank, why doesn't Yvette Clarke tell me what she did with the documents I gave her proving the American Journal of Physics article is fraudulent? All her staff has to do is send me an email saying she got the documents and is not interested in the matter. Why don't you explain to Creationwiki.org why the article is not fraudulent. If Creationwiki.org ignores your corrections, I will address them on this website. This is the link to the article I wrote:

http://creationwiki.org/Pseudoscience_i ... of_Physics
David Roemer

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24200
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed May 20, 2015 12:08 am

davidroemer wrote:If I am a crank, why doesn't Yvette Clarke tell me what she did with the documents I gave her proving the American Journal of Physics article is fraudulent?


You are a crank.
"I am currently a member of Christian Speaker Network and am on the speaker list of The Shroud of Turin Website".
http://newevangelist.me/about/

You have your own website for your Christian fantasies.
"Cosmological Proof of God’s Existence" and "Why Liberalism Is a Neurotic Response to Religion" and "Entropy and Evolution"

You are posting Christian rubbish on this well known skeptic forum, to get exposure, built up by the hard work of skeptics. Try a Christian forum for Christians, where this sort of nonsense is normal.

User avatar
gorgeous
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3336
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:25 pm

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby gorgeous » Wed May 20, 2015 12:29 am

"I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are details."--- (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p.202)---------------------"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."---Einstein
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 17914
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed May 20, 2015 12:47 am

gorgeous wrote:"I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are details."--- (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p.202)---------------------"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."---Einstein

You haven't seen the latest "Star Talk", I see. :lol:
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24200
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed May 20, 2015 12:50 am

gorgeous wrote:"I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are details."--- (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p.202)---------------------"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."---Einstein



Here is another lying religious idiot, called Gorgeous, with no literacy or comprehension skills, pretending Einstein is religious, by simply editing his quotes.

Einstein simply used "God" as a stand-in for "the laws of the universe" in his entertaining lectures. Gorgeous ignores Einstein's direct statements on religion.


"I came—though the child of entirely irreligious (Jewish) parents—to a deep religiousness, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of twelve."
Albert Einstein
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ ... t_Einstein

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27093
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Wild animal
Location: Transcona

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Gord » Wed May 20, 2015 1:28 am

davidroemer wrote:If I am a crank, why doesn't Yvette Clarke tell me what she did with the documents I gave her proving the American Journal of Physics article is fraudulent? All her staff has to do is send me an email saying she got the documents and is not interested in the matter.

That's how you deal with a crank.

Why don't you explain to Creationwiki.org why the article is not fraudulent.

Because creationwiki.org is a waste of time.

Your arguments are nonsensical. For instance, you say that Dawkins' argument was unintelligible because it said entropy referred to an isolated system; that's right after you explain that entropy applies to an isolated system. Either you don't understand what Dawkins said, or you don't understand what you said, or you don't care that you've both said the same thing and insist that it's only correct when you say it. In all of those cases, you basically come off as being nuts.

Evolution does not violate the 2nd law. Dawkins ridiculed people for claiming the second law of thermodynamics disproves evolution; you think you're ridiculing Dawkins for seeing a connection between the second law of thermodynamics and evolution, but that's what he was doing. Your ridicule would reflect back on yourself entirely if your arguments were true.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

davidroemer
BANNED
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby davidroemer » Wed May 20, 2015 2:34 am

The second law only applies to gases, liquids, and solids. It does not apply to the evolution of stars or biological evolution. Suppose I am explaining the second law to a class, and I put a sugar cube in a cup of coffee and say: "Sugar dissolves, it does not un-dissolved." A student says, "That is wrong! Sugar does un-dissolve. All you have to do is boil the water." I would say that student is a wiseguy.
David Roemer

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24200
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed May 20, 2015 3:52 am

davidroemer wrote:The second law only applies to gases, liquids, and solids. It does not apply to the evolution of stars or biological evolution. Suppose I am explaining the second law to a class, and I put a sugar cube in a cup of coffee and say: "Sugar dissolves, it does not un-dissolved." A student says, "That is wrong! Sugar does un-dissolve. All you have to do is boil the water." I would say that student is a wiseguy.


You are not reading Gord's post or pretending to ignore it on purpose.

Richard Dawkins has already ridiculed Christians for claiming the second law proves evolution is wrong. He is a scientist and has clearly stated this religious argument is complete crap. You are an "anti evolution" Christian complaining that you agree with Richard Dawkins, that this is a completely crap religious argument.

Don't tell us, we already know its crap. Go tell your fellow Christians on their forums. If you don't like The American Journal of Physics, then stop reading it.


I would prefer to talk to you about your other crap religious argument "Cosmological Proof of God's Existence"
http://newevangelist.me/cosmological-pr ... existence/

" A finite being is a metaphysical composition of two correlative principles: essence and existence. An infinite being is a pure act of existence. Yahweh is translated in the English versions of the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible) as “I am who am,” which could mean God is telling mankind He is a pure act of existence."

.......what a complete load of religious crap.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24200
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed May 20, 2015 4:09 am

David Roemer's "logic".

"I believe that baby Jesus is alive for two reasons: 1) The large number of people who believe in life-after-death. 2) The historical Jesus.

It is true many people think religious faith is irrational (unenlightened), however, these people tend to be unintelligent about the mind-body problem, ignorant of the proof of God’s existence, and irrational about the meaning of life. I refer you to my essay titled, “Why Liberalism Is a Neurotic Response to Religion.”


https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.co ... be-stupid/

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27093
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Wild animal
Location: Transcona

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Gord » Wed May 20, 2015 8:11 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:David Roemer's "logic".

"I believe that baby Jesus is alive for two reasons: 1) The large number of people who believe in life-after-death. 2) The historical Jesus.

It is true many people think religious faith is irrational (unenlightened), however, these people tend to be unintelligent about the mind-body problem, ignorant of the proof of God’s existence, and irrational about the meaning of life. I refer you to my essay titled, “Why Liberalism Is a Neurotic Response to Religion.”


https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.co ... be-stupid/

:lol:
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

davidroemer
BANNED
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby davidroemer » Wed May 20, 2015 12:14 pm

As to my being irrational because I believe in life after death, I admit it. There is no evidence of life after death. I believe in life after death because God has given me the gift of faith. There are three good reasons one can give for not believing: 1) The argument for God's existence is not persuasive. 2) If God cared about our welfare, there would not be so much pain and suffering. 3) God has not given me the gift of faith.

I thought this was a moderated discussion. Suppose I say, "A pendulum does not have a temperature or an entropy." A moderator would not allow the response: "Yes, it does."
David Roemer

User avatar
busterggi
Regular Poster
Posts: 870
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:36 pm
Custom Title: General Weirdness
Location: New Britain, CT

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby busterggi » Wed May 20, 2015 5:37 pm

"I thought this was a moderated discussion."

You think wrong quite a bit.

User avatar
Hex
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1059
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:26 pm
Custom Title: mi malam ciuj el vi
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Hex » Wed May 20, 2015 5:44 pm

davidroemer wrote:As to my being irrational because I believe in life after death, I admit it. There is no evidence of life after death. I believe in life after death because God has given me the gift of faith. There are three good reasons one can give for not believing: 1) The argument for God's existence is not persuasive. 2) If God cared about our welfare, there would not be so much pain and suffering. 3) God has not given me the gift of faith.

I thought this was a moderated discussion. Suppose I say, "A pendulum does not have a temperature or an entropy." A moderator would not allow the response: "Yes, it does."

That didn't take long to fall back to "You gotta have faith."
Spoiler:
  TOYNBEE IDEA
IN KUBRICK'S 2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwoaOJZ7Dfk

davidroemer
BANNED
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby davidroemer » Wed May 20, 2015 5:52 pm

I had a discussion of this topic going on the forum of the American Scientific Affiliation, a Christian group that is against ID and creationism. The CEO, Randy Isaac, has a PhD in physics and writes about evolution. He promised to "walk me through the second law of thermodynamics" to help me see why the AJP article was not wrong. At one point, I said, "A Boeing 747 does not have a temperature." He said, "Yes, it does." Since I have a PhD in physics too, this means one of us is crazy or a crank. I asked Robert Kaita, the President, to assign a moderator. He refused. I consider this proof that I am not the crazy one. People can't wrap their heads around the idea that a peer-reviewed physics article is absurd. Since this forum does not seem to have any PhDs in physics, except me, we should concentrate on this: Does a pendulum, watch, or Boeing 747, have a temperature?
David Roemer

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 15773
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed May 20, 2015 6:03 pm

davidroemer wrote:...I thought this was a moderated discussion...


I think this sticky got here recently after Phyrro discussed this on the previously existing Moderated Discussions subforum and moved all the topics here.

AFAIK, Skepticism and Critical Thinking is not a moderated subforum.





(Should we report that post/sticky? :fr5:)

querious
New Member
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 8:53 pm

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby querious » Wed May 20, 2015 9:56 pm

davidroemer wrote:As to my being irrational because I believe in life after death, I admit it. There is no evidence of life after death. I believe in life after death because God has given me the gift of faith. There are three good reasons one can give for not believing: 1) The argument for God's existence is not persuasive. 2) If God cared about our welfare, there would not be so much pain and suffering. 3) God has not given me the gift of faith.

I thought this was a moderated discussion. Suppose I say, "A pendulum does not have a temperature or an entropy." A moderator would not allow the response: "Yes, it does."


So why has god given some the gift of faith, and not others? Is he inherently unfair?

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27093
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Wild animal
Location: Transcona

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Gord » Wed May 20, 2015 10:12 pm

davidroemer wrote:At one point, I said, "A Boeing 747 does not have a temperature." He said, "Yes, it does." Since I have a PhD in physics too, this means one of us is crazy or a crank.

While I don't agree with your logic, I do agree with your conclusion.

I asked Robert Kaita, the President, to assign a moderator. He refused. I consider this proof that I am not the crazy one.

In this case, I agree with neither your logic nor your conclusion.

Since this forum does not seem to have any PhDs in physics, except me--

:lol:

--we should concentrate on this: Does a pendulum, watch, or Boeing 747, have a temperature?

Yes, all physical systems have temperatures. A temperature is a thermodynamic property: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_th ... properties

Pendulums, watches, and Boeing 747s are all physical systems: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/inde ... 333AAohVHv
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24200
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed May 20, 2015 10:52 pm

davidroemer wrote:As to my being irrational because I believe in life after death, I admit it.


1) Jesus died for our sins
2) Jesus is alive and in heaven.

Therefore Jesus didn't die and the whole Christian faith system doesn't make any sense.

User avatar
gorgeous
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3336
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:25 pm

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby gorgeous » Thu May 21, 2015 12:15 am

died--meaning no longer in a physical body, still alive without it...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

davidroemer
BANNED
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby davidroemer » Thu May 21, 2015 12:19 am

The links only indicate that a pendulum is a physical system. The links do not say a pendulum has a temperature. The bob and the string have a temperature because they are solids. According to the zeroth law of thermodynamics, temperature is measured with a thermometer. You can't measure the temperature of a pendulum.

By a funny coincidence I am now reading a book ("Galileo's Middle Finger: Heretics, Activists, and the Search for Justice") and found out that the U.S. Congress passed a law condemning a peer-reviewed science article: House Concurrent Resolution 107 (106th Congress, 1999-2000)"Expressing the sense of Congress rejecting the conclusions of a recent article published by the American Psychological Association that suggests that sexual relationships between adults and children might be positive for children." I am right to be asking Congress to condemn the AJP article.
David Roemer

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7399
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Poodle » Thu May 21, 2015 12:19 am

gorgeous wrote:died--meaning no longer in a physical body, still alive without it...


OED

black (n) ... white, pale colour, anything you like, really.

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7399
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Poodle » Thu May 21, 2015 12:23 am

davidroemer wrote:... According to the zeroth law of thermodynamics, temperature is measured with a thermometer. You can't measure the temperature of a pendulum ...


Strangely enough, the zeroth law of thermodynamics says no such thing. And you can.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24200
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu May 21, 2015 12:29 am

gorgeous wrote:died--meaning no longer in a physical body, still alive without it...
So Jesus can't get a physical body in heaven, where you get anything you want? That makes no sense at all.

Mark 8:25 : "Then Jesus placed his hands on the man's eyes again"
So Jesus can't do his job any more. Bummer for Jesus. Do they have occupation re-training in Heaven?

If I'm a famous juggler, wouldn't I be permanently depressed in Heaven, because I can no longer juggle? ( This Heaven place just sucks big time)

davidroemer
BANNED
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby davidroemer » Thu May 21, 2015 1:20 am

This is from the Wikipedia entry on the zeroth law:
The zeroth law justifies the use of suitable thermodynamic systems as thermometers to provide such a labeling, which yield any number of possible empirical temperature scales, and justifies the use of the second law of thermodynamics to provide an absolute, or thermodynamic temperature scale.


The macroscopic concept of temperature is the sensation of hot and cold. The microscopic concept of temperature is the average kinetic energy of molecules. Heat is defined in terms of temperature changes. Entropy is defined macroscopically with an integral equation involving heat and temperature. The microscopic concept of entropy has to do with probability. A gas fills up the entire container it is in because that is the most probable distribution of molecules, that is, the entropy is maximized.

In trying to understand where proteins come from, biologists calculate the probability of getting a protein from the random selection of amino acids. Likewise, physicists calculate the probability that a sugar cube will un-dissolve. This is where creationists get the stupid idea that the existence of proteins violates the second law of thermodynamics.
David Roemer

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27093
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Wild animal
Location: Transcona

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Gord » Thu May 21, 2015 1:38 am

Poodle wrote:
davidroemer wrote:... According to the zeroth law of thermodynamics, temperature is measured with a thermometer. You can't measure the temperature of a pendulum ...

Strangely enough, the zeroth law of thermodynamics says no such thing. And you can.

It's almost as if we're required to back up everything we say, but davidroemer is free to just post any old thing he decides to believe in.

davidroemer wrote:The links only indicate that a pendulum is a physical system.

Temperature is a property of a physical system: http://www.scienceclarified.com/Sp-Th/Temperature.html

By a funny coincidence I am now reading a book ("Galileo's Middle Finger: Heretics, Activists, and the Search for Justice") and found out that the U.S. Congress passed a law condemning a peer-reviewed science article: House Concurrent Resolution 107 (106th Congress, 1999-2000)"Expressing the sense of Congress rejecting the conclusions of a recent article published by the American Psychological Association that suggests that sexual relationships between adults and children might be positive for children." I am right to be asking Congress to condemn the AJP article.

No, you're still wrong. For one thing, you haven't demonstrated your claim to be true. For another, you haven't demonstrated that the U.S. Congress was right to condemn a peer-reviewed science article. For a third, you haven't demonstrated the article was peer-reviewed to begin with (although wikipedia could have helped you out with that -- it was published in the peer-reviewed academic journal Psychological Bulletin).
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7399
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Poodle » Thu May 21, 2015 1:45 am

I was thinking of a more prosaic definition of thermometer. But no matter ...

From the same Wiki entry ... "... temperature is just such a labeling process which uses the real number system for tagging. The zeroth law justifies the use of suitable thermodynamic systems as thermometers to provide such a labeling, which yield any number of possible empirical temperature scales, and justifies the use of the second law of thermodynamics to provide an absolute, or thermodynamic temperature scale" ...

So, errrmm, I can indeed measure the temperature of a pendulum and express it as a real number.

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27093
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Wild animal
Location: Transcona

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Gord » Thu May 21, 2015 2:03 am

davidroemer wrote:The macroscopic concept of temperature is the sensation of hot and cold.

The objective comparative measure of hot and cold, yes.

Heat is defined in terms of temperature changes.

Temperature is the property of physical systems that determines the direction of heat energy flow between each other.

Entropy is defined macroscopically with an integral equation involving heat and temperature.

Entropy is the conjugate to temperature: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjugate_ ... modynamics)
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

davidroemer
BANNED
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby davidroemer » Thu May 21, 2015 4:58 am

If there is a pendulum in your room, you can point to it and say, "The temperature of that object is 73 degrees or whatever room temperature is." A pendulum, however, is a mental being. The bob is a point mass and the string has no weight. A pendulum is a mental construct and exists only in the minds of physicists. It has no temperature.

The author of the AJP article understands this. In the beginning of the article he states,
Disorder is a metaphor for entropy, not a definition.” What makes the article absurd is that he forgets this truth and goes on to perform a calculation of the change in the entropy of organisms on Earth.


I'm using a pendulum because it is a machine like a watch. Did you ever hear of the watchmaker proof of God's existence? The argument makes no sense at all, but atheists and agnostics don't quite understand why. Their answer is that eventually science will explain the origin of life and evolution.

But when you tell an atheist or agnostic evolution violates a law of physics they go bonkers with anxiety. They are afraid to say the law does not apply. They feel obligated to say, "The law of physics is not violated."
David Roemer

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24200
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Biological Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamic

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu May 21, 2015 5:10 am

davidroemer wrote: But when you tell an atheist or agnostic evolution violates a law of physics they go bonkers with anxiety.
No. We just laugh, like we are laughing at you.

davidroemer wrote:"I believe that baby Jesus is alive for two reasons: 1) The large number of people who believe in life-after-death. 2) The historical Jesus.
So, David, as you believe in the "baby Jesus", can you tell us what his body temperature is?

If you say, "Baby Jesus doesn't have a body", then what makes you think Jesus is a baby? Isn't the bloke 2,000 years old?

:D

(I love Christian "logic". It's hilarious. An ongoing joke that writes itself.)


Return to “Skepticism and Critical Thinking”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest