Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:33 am

OlegTheBatty wrote: Written records are recent - 9k years tops. Anyone who observed anything before that forgot to write it down, I guess.
No but ape physiology hasn't changed.

There is no written record of apes innately drinking cyanide either, but we sort of know that didn't happen. Have you worked out how we know this? Homeopathy isn't innate is it? :D

OlegTheBatty wrote:So what? The fact that using psychoactive herbs is detrimental to survival skills is irrelevant if the herbs were used when not practicing survival skills.
So the apes were gathering magic mushrooms, that don't exist in the savannah, in totally different foraging expeditions to their normal survival foraging trips and this was innate, although magic mushrooms were simultaneously detrimental to those same foraging skills? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Mckenna left an important conclusion out of the paper he quoted "Thus it would be detrimental to the species". I will find the original paper and quote for you, if asked.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:35 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:I'm not arguing in favor of McKenna, which is utter nonsense; I am arguing your sloppy debunking. :D
I know that Oleg and I respect you doing this. It forces me to really really think what I'm saying and that's a good thing. :D

My dilemma is that that when I argue using full terminology and carefully composed scientific sentences, I get Zeuzz responding. When I try keep things simple and easy to follow, I get you responding.

Therefore, I really should not take any shortcuts.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby OlegTheBatty » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:54 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:I'm not arguing in favor of McKenna, which is utter nonsense; I am arguing your sloppy debunking. :D
I know that Oleg and I respect you doing this. It forces me to really really think what I'm saying and that's a good thing. :D

[color=#000080]My dilemma is that that when I argue using full terminology and carefully composed scientific sentences, I get Zeuzz responding. When I try keep things simple and easy to follow, I get you responding.



Part of the problem is that you are focusing too much on minutia. Sure, McKenna posited magic mushrooms, but that is only one source of psychoactive drugs. There are many others. The actual source is not important at this stage.

Once it is established that the use of psychoactive drugs caused the evolution of a larger brain, then we can investigate the question of what the source was. Since we will never get to that point, the question of source is irrelevant.

To put it another way, the magic mushroom question merely attacks a minor detail, it does not attack the primary hypothesis.

Therefore, I really should not take any shortcuts.

You've been spending so much time debating bottomfeeders, you're losing your touch. A major leaguer does not hone his skills in the bush leagues. :D
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby OlegTheBatty » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:09 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote: Written records are recent - 9k years tops. Anyone who observed anything before that forgot to write it down, I guess.
No but ape physiology hasn't changed.

There is no written record of apes innately drinking cyanide either, but we sort of know that didn't happen. Have you worked out how we know this? Homeopathy isn't innate is it? :D

Modern apes are not in the evolutionary path to humans, so any lack of innate tendencies is irrelevant. The use of psychoactives is common in human cultures, including some that remained isolated from Eurasian influences until recently. That is evidence for an innate tendency. It does not require 100% of the population to possess the tendency for it to be a form of gene expression. Even a small percentage would suffice. The genome is complex, and varies.

Are you suggesting that because some people have blue eyes and some have brown eyes that eye color is a learned characteristic?

OlegTheBatty wrote:So what? The fact that using psychoactive herbs is detrimental to survival skills is irrelevant if the herbs were used when not practicing survival skills.
So the apes were gathering magic mushrooms, that don't exist in the savannah, in totally different foraging expeditions to their normal survival foraging trips and this was innate, although magic mushrooms were simultaneously detrimental to those same foraging skills? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Mckenna left an important conclusion out of the paper he quoted "Thus it would be detrimental to the species". I will find the original paper and quote for you, if asked.

The protohumans in question were wandering about foraging for roots and berries, and scavenging carcasses. Why would they need a 'special foraging expedition'?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:18 am

Just noticed - and like - your new sig, Oleg. :-D
Hi, Io the lurker.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:10 am

(edit: derp, too tired now, will be back later)
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:38 am

OlegTheBatty wrote: Why would they need a 'special foraging expedition'?


Because magic mushrooms don't grow in the African savanna, as I already said. :D

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:46 am

OlegTheBatty wrote: Modern apes are not in the evolutionary path to humans, so any lack of innate tendencies is irrelevant.
So why are you making a hypothesis for something that has never been observed? :D


If no ape does it. No evidence exists that a hominid did it and if a hominid actually did do it, it would be detrimental to that hominid, .......then what are we even talking about? :D

OlegTheBatty wrote: The use of psychoactives is common in human cultures, including some that remained isolated from Eurasian influences until recently.
That's because there are magic mushrooms there. There are no magic mushrooms in the African savanna, where humans evolved.

Next question.
:D

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:40 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote: Why would they need a 'special foraging expedition'?


Because magic mushrooms don't grow in the African savanna, as I already said. :D


Matthew Ellard wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote: Modern apes are not in the evolutionary path to humans, so any lack of innate tendencies is irrelevant.
So why are you making a hypothesis for something that has never been observed? :D

If no ape does it. No evidence exists that a hominid did it and if a hominid actually did do it, it would be detrimental to that hominid, .......then what are we even talking about? :D

OlegTheBatty wrote: The use of psychoactives is common in human cultures, including some that remained isolated from Eurasian influences until recently.
That's because there are magic mushrooms there. There are no magic mushrooms in the African savanna, where humans evolved.

Next question.
:D

I didn't say 'magic mushrooms', you did (and McKenna, I guess - didn't read his stuff 'cause it is nonsense). I said 'psychoactives'. There are scads of them. Even digitalin, which has only a small dose interval between getting high and getting dead.

The observation that other apes are not interested in getting high only shows that any such trait would have arisen after the split between Pan and Homo. That still leaves 2 or 3 million years for it to arise.

Really, this is an insignificant detail. The most you can show with the magic mushroom argument is that the source of psychoactive drug is an unknown.

The stoned ape hypothesis is dead in the water unless its proponents can show a mechanism by which mind expanding drugs can produce genetic changes. That is it's Achilles heel. That's why those who argue for it lead you down the garden path arguing about magic mushrooms. Pages and pages of irrelevancy.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:17 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote: Why would they need a 'special foraging expedition'?
Matthew Ellard wrote:Because magic mushrooms don't grow in the African savanna, as I already said. :D


OlegTheBatty wrote: I didn't say 'magic mushrooms', you did (and McKenna, I guess I didn't read his stuff 'cause it is nonsense). I said 'psychoactives'.
This is what Zeuzzz does. The Stoned ape theory is about magic mushrooms in the African savanna. It is not about other psychoactive drugs, in other places, where hominids didn't evolve, as that wouldn't be the claim made in this thread.

OlegTheBatty wrote: The stoned ape hypothesis is dead in the water unless its proponents can show a mechanism by which mind expanding drugs can produce genetic changes. That is it's Achilles heel. That's why those who argue for it lead you down the garden path arguing about magic mushrooms. Pages and pages of irrelevancy.


I won't torture you by asking you to read through the thread. However Zeuzzz had already withdrawn his Stoned Ape claim, for exactly the reasons you have stated. It took me two months to get Zeuzzz to admit that there is such mechanism. Zeuzzz has promised for a year to resubmit his "Stoned Ape Theory II" as a proper scientific paper.

All that happened recently, was that Zeuzz started slipping backwards and was re-entering the delusional framework that McKenna fabricated. Zeuzzz was starting to say again, that magic mushrooms caused modern humans to evolve,

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Kyle_Connor » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:15 am

Hey.
I didn't read the entire thread but just the last few comments so sorry if i repeat or miss out.
They are the Psychedelic Mushrooms if I'm not wrong.
It increases the brain activity which made the hominoids better hunters. It also boosted their sex drive and engaged in group sex. This caused genetic diversification in the children which thus continued.
I read it in a recent article.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:48 am

Kyle_Connor wrote: I didn't read the entire thread but just the last few comments so sorry if i repeat or miss out.
That's one way to jump in.

Kyle_Connor wrote: They are the Psychedelic Mushrooms if I'm not wrong.
Yes.

Kyle_Connor wrote: It increases the brain activity which made the hominoids better hunters.
No. Exactly the opposite.

Kyle_Connor wrote: It also boosted their sex drive and engaged in group sex.
Alpha dominated male hierarchies on psychedelics, generally leads to the breakdown of the troop and communal care of offspring. It would kill them off. That's the hard evidence.

Kyle_Connor wrote:This caused genetic diversification in the children which thus continued.
Not unless God blessed magic mushrooms with the ability to make new genes

Kyle_Connor wrote:I read it in a recent article.
Link me. I'm an anthropology prehistory graduate.

Have you been on this forum before under another name?

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:53 pm

Kyle_Connor wrote:Hey.
I didn't read the entire thread but just the last few comments so sorry if i repeat or miss out.
They are the Psychedelic Mushrooms if I'm not wrong.
It increases the brain activity which made the hominoids better hunters.

There are plenty of studies which show that psychedelics interfere with practical skills, but none which demonstrate enhanced ability. "Oh, wow man! Groovy!" is not the best response to being chased by a lion.

It also boosted their sex drive and engaged in group sex. This caused genetic diversification in the children which thus continued.
I read it in a recent article.

Only one sperm cell can fertilize an ovum. It does not matter how many partners she has.
Whether protohumans were more or less monogamous or polygamous, a troop has a limited gene pool. Where was this genetic diversification coming from? Baboons?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:31 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:If you think epigenetics is a back door, you are merely demonstrating your own lack of understanding of epigenetics.


There are two ways in which the term epigenetics can be defined.

There is the proper scientific way; in relation to the emphasis of gene expression.

And the greek way in terms of the prefix 'epi' infront of the term genetic. Which simply means anything above and beyond genetic determinsism. ie, above, on, over, nearby, upon; outer; besides, in addition to; among; attached to; or toward genes.

I mainly use it in terms of the latter. Although I can still appreciate it's scientific definition, as there is a linguistic bent to it.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:34 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: Alpha dominated male hierarchies on psychedelics, generally leads to the breakdown of the troop and communal care of offspring. It would kill them off. That's the hard evidence.


How hard is that evidence? Post it again ... and I will shoot it down again.

Please bear in mind not the scientific experiment but the evolutionary gastronomical variable here.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby OlegTheBatty » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:44 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:If you think epigenetics is a back door, you are merely demonstrating your own lack of understanding of epigenetics.


There are two ways in which the term epigenetics can be defined.

There is the proper scientific way; in relation to the emphasis of gene expression.

And the greek way in terms of the prefix 'epi' infront of the term genetic. Which simply means anything above and beyond genetic determinsism. ie, above, on, over, nearby, upon; outer; besides, in addition to; among; attached to; or toward genes.

I mainly use it in terms of the latter. Although I can still appreciate it's scientific definition, as there is a linguistic bent to it.

Let me paraphrase your comment:

"I know that genetics/epigenetics thoroughly destroys my pet theory, but . . . ooo look! A shiny thing."

Definitions: creative malleability
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:52 pm

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:52 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:"I know that genetics/epigenetics thoroughly destroys my pet theory, but . . . ooo look! A shiny thing."

Explain why so.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby OlegTheBatty » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:06 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:"I know that genetics/epigenetics thoroughly destroys my pet theory, but . . . ooo look! A shiny thing."

Explain why so.

Why what? Why you tried to wave a shiny thing creative definition at me?

Or Why genetics/epigenetics destroys your theory?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:42 pm

.... go on
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:42 am

zeuzzz wrote: There are two ways in which the term epigenetics can be defined.


Zeuzzz. We have been through this before. All epigenetic sequences are already evolved and carried in existing DNA. Epigentic sequences can not create one new gene. This confused you and Sweetpea for an entire year.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:44 am

zeuzzz wrote: How hard is that evidence? Post it again ... and I will shoot it down again.
It's in our formal debate thread that you ran away from, with full citations. :lol:

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:54 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:"I know that genetics/epigenetics thoroughly destroys my pet theory, but . . . ooo look! A shiny thing."
zeuzzz wrote:Explain why so.
That's easy. Let me recap your previous insanity for you.

1) Epigenetic sequences are already evolved and carried in our existing DNA. They cannot introduce one new gene. Your insane claim was that they , magically triggered by magic mushrooms, introduced all the new genes to allow man to evolve.

2) You have been totally unable to explain any mechanism for how your Stoned ape theory introduced new genes to allow man to evolve, and you are still confused and claim that the hypothalamus-adrenal endocrine system somehow magically creates new gene information, using simple hormones that don't carry any DNA. :lol:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=22001&p=500045&hilit=endocrine#p500005

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:27 am

How's that scientific paper "Stoned Ape II" of yours coming Zeuzzz? Will you be finished next week or the week after? :D


zeuzzz wrote: It is in effect Lamarckism, but the recent emerging and extremely successful field of epigenetics adds far more plausibility to this idea than was previously allowed by such materialistic genetic determinism ideologies as you just stated. effectively epigenetics allows for the input of consciousness into inheritance

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby OlegTheBatty » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:57 pm

zeuzzz wrote:.... go on

Where? (I feel free to decline if I wish.)
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:53 pm

Please ignore Matt. He's being all weird again, and is stuck on strawmanning my arguments.

Lets see: "Epigentic sequences can not create one new gene." I never claimed that, epigenetics changes simply change gene expression. And you can't prove I said otherwise.

"that you ran away from, with full citations" The funniest thing about this quote (for me) is that the person who was supplying the most references in the debate thread was actually me, until it was shut down, for other reasons. I did actually answer all those questions in a thread I specifically started on this forum for anyone to vent anything about me they disagreed with here. That was not a complete answer, as the theory as it stands needs to be re-written from top to bottom. I am getting help from people on many inderdisciplinary fora, and it's mroe complex than most of the things we have talked about here yet. Many factors I have found out falsify McKennas theory as he wrote it in fact.

"Your insane claim was that they , magically triggered by magic mushrooms, introduced all the new genes to allow man to evolve. " This is not even funny, as it is an outright lie, the search function is top left Matt. Back this up. Or shut up. when I say consciousness can feed back into inheritance I simply mean in terms of the choices people make during their lifetimes, which could be their diet, could be their forced environmental diet; it could be many things, such as the studies in Sweden, that I backed up with evidence, and you further strawmanned. I copied it onto my blog, which was a culmulative condensation of various texts online about on epigenetics, where you read it and ridiculued it; the quote is actually from a BBC Article.

"In a remote town in northern Sweden there is evidence for this radical idea. Lying in Överkalix's parish registries of births and deaths and its detailed harvest records is a secret that confounds traditional scientific thinking. Marcus Pembrey, a Professor of Clinical Genetics at the Institute of Child Health in London, in collaboration with Swedish researcher Lars Olov Bygren, has found evidence in these records of an environmental effect being passed down the generations. They have shown that a famine at critical times in the lives of the grandparents can affect the life expectancy of the grandchildren. This is the first evidence that an environmental effect can be inherited in humans."

I also referenced in the main article the PTSD inherited from one generation to the next documented in the literature after the 9/11 attacks in reference to epigenetic inheritance, as this is one of the best modern examples we have in the scientific literature, and there is a clear and noticeable effect.

"You have been totally unable to explain any mechanism for how your Stoned ape theory introduced new genes to allow man to evolve" again with this now tormentedly long and drawn out genetic determism viewpoint you have. I have many times given you the example of Robert Sapolskys work with Baboons, to show that within just one generation drastic changes to a species behaviour are possible in spite of the genetics or additions to the gene pool.

I have done far more than this, in reality, if you truthfully reflect on all the previous posts in this thread. Don't pretend you have forgotten. As I can bring them up again.
Last edited by zeuzzz on Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:56 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:.... go on

Where? (I feel free to decline if I wish.)


I am just wondering where you get the notion that genetics/epigenetics destroys the theory that agents that can drastically effect cognition, behaviours and perspective could not have effected the evolutionary trajectory of a species.

We see this in other animals as they settle into their various ecological niches, from the environmental effect of general diets effects on metabolism and neurochemistry, right down the spectrum to reindeer munching full blown psychedelic Amanita Muscaria and cats using catnip; why not humans in the distant prehistoric past too? Without going into the complexities of timescales and population bottlenecks ...

Or as you put it, and ended with a question mark, that I would like resolved; "Why genetics/epigenetics destroys your theory?"

Well why so?
Last edited by zeuzzz on Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:07 am

zeuzzz wrote: I never claimed that, epigenetics changes simply change gene expression. And you can't prove I said otherwise.
You did exactly that Zuezzz. Shall we go through you own quotes? It's very funny. I could make a joke thread simply using quotes from you. :lol:

zeuzzz wrote: "that you ran away from" The funniest thing about this quote (for me) is that the person who was supplying the most references in the debate thread was actually me,
No Zeuzzz You ran away without responding in the debate. You didn't leave any citations at all. You are delusional again.

Austin Harper wrote:I'm declaring the debate closed by forfeit of zeuzzz on the grounds that he has abandoned the debate.

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=25616#p482199


zeuzzz wrote:until it was shut down, for other reasons.
....because you failed to respond. :lol:


zeuzzz wrote:......as the theory as it stands needs to be re-written from top to bottom.
You have now said that for almost two years. You are never going to write a scientific paper because there is no theory to write about.

Zeuzzz, you are living a totally delusional world. It's incredibly funny to watch. :lol:

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:16 am

Notice how you have pretty much dodged all the substance in my above post and again hidden behind your own claims of my insanity and your usual accompanying emoticons. This behavior pattern is getting very tired, you seem stuck in past posting history instead of being open to progressing discussion of this subject into the future.

Please address some of the substance of my above post. Maybe that way this can become a bit more productive.
Last edited by zeuzzz on Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:23 am

zeuzzz wrote:Notice how you have pretty much dodged all the substance in my above post
No Zeuzzz. You are off with the fairies again. You abandoned the formal debate. That is a fact. You can't get around it. :lol:

Debate: Matthew Ellard vs zeuzzz
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:29 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: No Zeuzzz. You are off with the fairies again. You abandoned the formal debate. That is a fact. You can't get around it. :lol:

Debate: Matthew Ellard vs zeuzzz
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=25616#p465925


That is the debate thread, thanks for the link.

Why did you say this just now then?

Matthew Ellard wrote:No Zeuzzz You ran away without responding in the debate. [u]You didn't leave any citations at all.]/u] You are delusional again. :lol:


When this followed and was not addressed by you before the debate was shut down?

^ Rakic. P. Evolution of the neocortex: Perspective from developmental biology. Nat Rev Neuroscience. 2009 October; 10(10): 724–735.
^ a b c d e Terence McKenna (1999) 'Food of the gods: the search for the original tree of knowledge: a radical history of plants, drugs, and human evolution - Medical Book Publication
^ Huffman, Michael (2007) Current evidence for self-medication in primates: A multidisciplinary perspective - YEARBOOK OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 40:171–200.
^ G. H. Neil Towers (1996) 'Leaf-swallowing by chimpanzees: A behavioral adaptation for the control of strongyle nematode infections' - International Journal of Primatology August 1996, Volume 17, Issue 4, pp 475-503.
^ Dale H. Clayton Nathan D. Wolfe (1998)The adaptive significance of self-medication Volume 8, Issue 2, February 1993, Pages 60–63.
^ Andrew Fowler, Yianna Koutsioni, Volker Sommer (2007) Leaf-swallowing in Nigerian chimpanzees: evidence for assumed self-medication January 2007, Volume 48, Issue 1, pp 73-76.
^ a b Harold Altshuler (1975) 'Intragastric self-administration of psychoactive drugs by the rhesus monkey' Volume 17, Issue 6, 15 September, Life Sciences Pages 883–890
^ Huffman, A (2001) 'Self-Medicative Behavior in the African Great Apes: An Evolutionary Perspective into the Origins of Human Traditional Medicine'BioScience 51(8):651-661. 2001
^ Huffman MA et al. (1994) 'The diversity of medicinal plant use by chimpanzees in the wild.' Chimpanzee Cultures. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, pp. 129–148.
^ Rodriguez E et al (1993) Zoopharmacog 'The use of medicinal plants by animals. In KR Downum, JT Romeo, and H Stafford' Recent Advances in Phytochemistry, vol. 27: Phytochemical Potential of Tropic Plants. New York: Plenum, pp. 89–105.
^ D.M. Turner Psilocybin Mushrooms: The Extraterrestrial Invasion Of Earth? The Essential Psychedelic Guide - By D. M. Turner, First Printing - September 1994, Panther Press ISBN 0-9642636-1-0
^ Ben Amar M (2006) Cannabinoids in medicine: A review of their therapeutic potential (2006) Journal of Ethno-Pharmacology 2006 Apr 21;105(1-2):1-25
^ Stephen Yazull (2009) Endocannabinoids in the retina: From marijuana to neuroprotection Progress in Retinal and Eye Research 27 (2008) 501–526
^ Stephen Yazulla (2006) Cannabis improves night vision: a case study of dark adaptometry and scotopic sensitivity in kif smokers of the Rif mountains of northern Morocco Survey of Ophthalmology Volume 46, Issue 1, July–August 2001, Pages 43–5.
^ Michael Sivak Human Factors and Highway-Accident Causation: Some Theoretical Considerations Acrid Anal & Prw.. Vol 13. pp 614.
^ Stafford PJ. (1992). Psychedelics Encyclopedia. Berkeley, California: Ronin Publishing. ISBN 0-914171-51-8
^ a b c Griffins et al Psilocybin can occasion mystical-type experiences having substantial and sustained personal meaning and spiritual significance. Psychopharmacology187(3):268-83. August 2006.
^ Griffiths, Roland R., et al. Mystical-type experiences occasioned by psilocybin mediate the attribution of personal meaning and spiritual significance 14 months later; Journal of Psychopharmacology 22.6 (2008): 621-632.
^ Griffiths, Roland R., et al. Psilocybin occasioned mystical-type experiences: immediate and persisting dose-related effects. Psychopharmacology 218.4 (2011): 649-665.
^ MacLean, Katherine A., Matthew W. Johnson, and Roland R. Griffiths. Mystical experiences occasioned by the hallucinogen psilocybin lead to increases in the personality domain of openness. Journal of Psychopharmacology 25.11 (2011): 1453-1461.
^ Arran Frood (2007) Cluster Busters NATURE MEDICINE VOLUME 13 | NUMBER 1 | JANUARY 2007, Paper endorsed and made public by MAPS.
^ Christopher Wiegand, M.D (2060)Safety, Tolerability, and Efficacy of Psilocybin in 9 Patients With Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder J Clin Psychiatry. 2006 Nov;67(11):1735-40.
^ a b Stamets, Paul (1996)Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World. Ten Speed Press. ISBN 0898158397.
^ a b Simon G.Powell The Psilocybin Solution:Prelude To A Paradigm Shift
^ Giorgio Samorini (1992) The oldest Representations of Hallucinogenic Mushrooms in the World. Integration, vol. 2/3, pp. 69-78,
^ John M. Allegro.The Sacred Mushroom And The Cross. Gnostic Media Research & Publishing; 40 Anv edition (12 Nov 2009)
^ a b c Stamets, Paul (1996) [1996]. Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World. Ten Speed Press. p. 11. ISBN 0898158397.
^ Johnson, Jean Bassett (1939). The Elements of Mazatec Witchcraft. Gothenburg, Sweden: Ethnological Studies, No. 9.
^ Yehuda, Rachel, and Linda M. Bierer. Transgenerational transmission of cortisol and PTSD risk. Progress in brain research 167 (2007): 121-135.
^ Samorini, Giorgio. Animals and psychedelics: The natural world and the instinct to alter consciousness. Park Street Press, 2002.
^ http://andy-letcher.blogspot.co.uk/2011 ... r-not.html
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:32 am

I wrote quite a lot above Matt to explain myself; it would not be too hard to reply to some of it without Ad Hom accustions of deusions of insanity. I really would like to have a reasonable discussion here before the article is finished. Other forums seem to be able to manage it.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:36 am

zeuzzz wrote:I wrote quite a lot above Matt to explain myself; it would not be too hard to reply to some of it without Ad Hom accustions of deusions of insanity.
Zeuzzz? You were the person who announced he was suffering a psychiatric disease and unable to continue. Can you remember doing that at all? :lol:

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:40 am

zeuzzz wrote: Why did you say this just now then?
That you made no citations, which is correct. None of these papers had anything to do with your stoned Ape fantasies remember?

You were suffering very bad delusions at that time and thought that adding any citation was "doing something"

Which specific paper discusses the Stoned ape theory Zeuzzz?

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:44 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:I wrote quite a lot above Matt to explain myself; it would not be too hard to reply to some of it without Ad Hom accustions of deusions of insanity.
Zeuzzz? You were the person who announced he was suffering a psychiatric disease and unable to continue. Can you remember doing that at all? :lol:


I started an entire thread about it here to clarify. Do you remember that? :shock:

Your still 'stuck' aren't you? Have you not noticed the discussion trajectory I keep trying to take this thread down? And how quickly you shut that down into pointless arguments?

Can someone else help Matt out? He's been on loop now for at least 30 pages of this thread. Unlike him I wont incorrectly diagnose a psychiatric issue and laugh at him about it however.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:58 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Which specific paper discusses the Stoned ape theory Zeuzzz?


This is a culmulative effort between me, a doctor, a pharmacologist and a physician. It's a wiki article that over ten people have edited and added to. Sign up and edit it a bit more if you want. https://drugs-forum.com/forum/showwiki. ... Hypothesis

You will probably like the critisism part the most. Considering how this thread has not even gotten past the hypothesis (silly as it is) as McKenna espoused it. Still gridlock here.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:19 am

zeuzzz wrote: I started an entire thread about it here to clarify. Do you remember that? :shock:
Zeuzzz? You never explained what the mechanism was remember? Did you forget that too?

Now's your big chance Zeuzzz, What is the exact mechanism where magic mushrooms allowed conscious thoughts to change inheritance and thus allow modern man to evolve? :lol:

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:26 am

Well if we are keeping with a mushroom centric perspective on changes in consciousness leading to changes in behaviour and culture that can be inherited between generations mushrooms have a distinct fingerprint once gastronomy is at a sufficient evolutionary level.

Since there is a spectrum of effects to any psychoactive we should start at the threshold and end up at the effective dosage levels. Using John Hopkins studies dosages as a marker. http://www.gizmag.com/johns-hopkins-psi ... age/18981/

At the threshold effect (micro-dosing level) of ingesting just 1-2mg/70kg of psilocybin a number of things are noted:

* Increase in abstract thought and tangential thinking outside the realms of ordinary metabolic reality
* CNS stimulation in terms of a broadening in perceptive scope, noticing things in the immediate environment that are not usually noticed
* Increase in tactile senses, colors are enhanced, visual accuity in terms of edge detection is increased, as the contrast between the now more vibrant colors seems more distinct
* Due to increase in CNS stimulation this can act as a mild aphrodisiac, leading to more offspring
* There are many more reported effects at this dosage level but since the dose is so small many of the effects are difficult to control vs placebo due to other variables effecting the results, I could list some thirty more ...

At the 3-10mg/70kg level there are new phenomenon and an increase in the above

* A breaking of ordinary behavioural patterns so completely new and novel behaviours and cognitive effects become evident
* A more psychologically introspective state is reached, called by psychopharmacologists meta-cognition (ie, thinking about thinking). This is the state that seems to cure people that have OCD ailments, as they are able to 'pull back' from their usual habitual behaviours and see how unproductive they are.
* Feelings (both positive and negative) are enhanced due to this change in meta-cognition
* Incessant laughter and bonding is very common at these low levels, with traits similar to those of enactogenic agents
* Creativity is enhanced as the normal mental modality of thought previously constrained by metabolism is pushed more to the abstract realm
* A loss of self identity (a diminishing of the ego) starts to happen, so social constructs built up by culture start to dissolve and people feel more free, the personality metric used by Griffiths et al in his studies is an 'increase in personality domain of open-ness'

At the 10mg-20mg/70kg level

* Visual hallucinations and a blurring of the immediate environment, to the point where things that are not there begin to be seen, only OEVs, but not CEVs (closed eye visuals)
* The RSN (resting state network) state of mind is peturbed to the point that self identity is hard to conceptualize, leading to a greatly diminished ego and place in the hierarchy of the troop/culture
* A synaesthetic state is reached, where all of the senses get melded together and can interplay and manifest in new novel ways, often experienced as a logos like voice in the head
* Emotions and introspection into ones mental modality and psyche are greatly enhanced, and less focussed on the local environment and more on ones internal state of mind and how this has effected ones behaviours in the past in relation to other people (ie, mirror neuron activity is greatly enhanced)
* A catalysis of consciousness in terms of new ideas, thoughts, insights and feelings; as previously neurologically compartmentalized areas of the brain are shut down due to previously separate areas forming new connections with each other
* At these dosage levels fMRI scans have shown definate decreases in cerebral blood-flow (CBF) in the posterior cingulate cortex, which acts mainly as a kind of central hub where all most cognitive day to day thoughts and input is filtered through, and is the main difference in neuroscience that distinguishes us from primates, as this region displays very high ontogenetic development with time as the brain develops, and is also significantly larger in humans than in primates, with higher density of connections to the rest of the brain

At the 20-40mg/70kg level

* Visual hallucinations and a blurring of the immediate environment become over-powering, communication is out of the question, OEVs are intense and CEVs are even more intense, and referred to in the literature as either mystical or visionary states, with eyes either open or shut
* The RSN is peturbed to the point where self identity is replaced by a feeling of 'one-ness', not just with fellow members of the troop/culture but with the local environment and nature itself
* These intense states are accompanied by fractal visions, and can be accompanied by states of psychological struggle as people wrestle with the loss of their ego and self identity
* The imagination begins to manifest more than external reality and the local environment, leading to a state of synaesthetic creativity that meld all senses into one
* Either the subject starts to panic at the profundity of the experience, with a peak in adrenalin to slowly wear off as the psilocin is metabolized, or they can relax into the experience and come out of it transformed and with a new perspective of the self, their environment, their culture/troop and their place in it. Some 80% of humans who reach this state (from the John Hopkins research) report it to be one of the most spiritually significant happenings of their lives, on a par with giving birth, falling in love for the first time or experiencing the death of a loved one.

Dosages up to ten times that (200-400mg/70kg) are even stronger, but never fatal (maybe for people with pre-existing heart conditions). It takes over one hundred to one thousand times that doseage to start to cause enough physiological stress on the body to cause an overdose based death (see the LD50 discussed on the first page of this thread by me), though of course psycholgical confusion could lead to dangerous behaviour.

I have rushed this list, but since we know that a single one off event (the world trade center attacks on 9/11) had a noticeable effect on the next generations inheritance of PTSD via epigenetic changes to gene expression, similarly with people studied in Sweden during the famines metabolism of their food; to suggest that such profound experiences would not have had a similarly long lasting effect on gene expression would be the more ridiuculous position to take. The effects would have been more than genetic too, but psycho-social and cultural; lets not get bogged down with a gene centric perspective of this.

If you want to bring up the plausability of continual use, or the cultural use, or the ambience of effect single users would have amoungst a disparate population over long periods of time, we can talk about that. Also the repeatability of use is an important variable, along with dietary considerations and the environmental impact factors leading to such a diet.

Most importantly we can start to weigh some positive and negative evolutionarily selective advantages from the above rough profile I have sketched, and compare what factors they catalyze or diminish vs primates and modern humans in terms of psychology and cognitive functions. As each point goes a lot deeper than I have just laid out.

edit: I've not time to re-read the above, plz ignore rushed spelling.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:17 am

zeuzzz wrote: edit: I've not time to re-read the above, plz ignore rushed spelling.
I didn't bother reading any of that diversion.

Zeuzzz. What is the exact biological mechanism that, as you claim, allows the conscious thoughts of hominids, after eating magic mushrooms, to magically evolve into modern humans?


Either you can say what it is or you can't.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:42 am

zeuzzz wrote:Well if we are keeping with a mushroom centric perspective on changes in consciousness leading to changes in behaviour and culture that can be inherited between generations mushrooms have a distinct fingerprint once gastronomy is at a sufficient evolutionary level.

Since there is a spectrum of effects to any psychoactive we should start at the threshold and end up at the effective dosage levels. Using John Hopkins studies dosages as a marker. http://www.gizmag.com/johns-hopkins-psi ... age/18981/

At the threshold effect (micro-dosing level) of ingesting just 1-2mg/70kg of psilocybin a number of things are noted:

* Increase in abstract thought and tangential thinking outside the realms of ordinary metabolic reality
* CNS stimulation in terms of a broadening in perceptive scope, noticing things in the immediate environment that are not usually noticed
* Increase in tactile senses, colors are enhanced, visual accuity in terms of edge detection is increased, as the contrast between the now more vibrant colors seems more distinct
* Due to increase in CNS stimulation this can act as a mild aphrodisiac, leading to more offspring
* There are many more reported effects at this dosage level but since the dose is so small many of the effects are difficult to control vs placebo due to other variables effecting the results, I could list some thirty more ...

At the 3-10mg/70kg level there are new phenomenon and an increase in the above

* A breaking of ordinary behavioural patterns so completely new and novel behaviours and cognitive effects become evident
* A more psychologically introspective state is reached, called by psychopharmacologists meta-cognition (ie, thinking about thinking). This is the state that seems to cure people that have OCD ailments, as they are able to 'pull back' from their usual habitual behaviours and see how unproductive they are.
* Feelings (both positive and negative) are enhanced due to this change in meta-cognition
* Incessant laughter and bonding is very common at these low levels, with traits similar to those of enactogenic agents
* Creativity is enhanced as the normal mental modality of thought previously constrained by metabolism is pushed more to the abstract realm
* A loss of self identity (a diminishing of the ego) starts to happen, so social constructs built up by culture start to dissolve and people feel more free, the personality metric used by Griffiths et al in his studies is an 'increase in personality domain of open-ness'

At the 10mg-20mg/70kg level

* Visual hallucinations and a blurring of the immediate environment, to the point where things that are not there begin to be seen, only OEVs, but not CEVs (closed eye visuals)
* The RSN (resting state network) state of mind is peturbed to the point that self identity is hard to conceptualize, leading to a greatly diminished ego and place in the hierarchy of the troop/culture
* A synaesthetic state is reached, where all of the senses get melded together and can interplay and manifest in new novel ways, often experienced as a logos like voice in the head
* Emotions and introspection into ones mental modality and psyche are greatly enhanced, and less focussed on the local environment and more on ones internal state of mind and how this has effected ones behaviours in the past in relation to other people (ie, mirror neuron activity is greatly enhanced)
* A catalysis of consciousness in terms of new ideas, thoughts, insights and feelings; as previously neurologically compartmentalized areas of the brain are shut down due to previously separate areas forming new connections with each other
* At these dosage levels fMRI scans have shown definate decreases in cerebral blood-flow (CBF) in the posterior cingulate cortex, which acts mainly as a kind of central hub where all most cognitive day to day thoughts and input is filtered through, and is the main difference in neuroscience that distinguishes us from primates, as this region displays very high ontogenetic development with time as the brain develops, and is also significantly larger in humans than in primates, with higher density of connections to the rest of the brain

At the 20-40mg/70kg level

* Visual hallucinations and a blurring of the immediate environment become over-powering, communication is out of the question, OEVs are intense and CEVs are even more intense, and referred to in the literature as either mystical or visionary states, with eyes either open or shut
* The RSN is peturbed to the point where self identity is replaced by a feeling of 'one-ness', not just with fellow members of the troop/culture but with the local environment and nature itself
* These intense states are accompanied by fractal visions, and can be accompanied by states of psychological struggle as people wrestle with the loss of their ego and self identity
* The imagination begins to manifest more than external reality and the local environment, leading to a state of synaesthetic creativity that meld all senses into one
* Either the subject starts to panic at the profundity of the experience, with a peak in adrenalin to slowly wear off as the psilocin is metabolized, or they can relax into the experience and come out of it transformed and with a new perspective of the self, their environment, their culture/troop and their place in it. Some 80% of humans who reach this state (from the John Hopkins research) report it to be one of the most spiritually significant happenings of their lives, on a par with giving birth, falling in love for the first time or experiencing the death of a loved one.

Dosages up to ten times that (200-400mg/70kg) are even stronger, but never fatal (maybe for people with pre-existing heart conditions). It takes over one hundred to one thousand times that doseage to start to cause enough physiological stress on the body to cause an overdose based death (see the LD50 discussed on the first page of this thread by me), though of course psycholgical confusion could lead to dangerous behaviour.

I have rushed this list...

So it seems. I cannot find any of what is described above at the provided link to gizmag. :?
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