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        <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:27:31 GMT</pubDate>
        <ttl>60</ttl>
        <item>
            <title>SKEPTIC Magazine: Letters &amp; Discussions :: Re: David Brin vs. ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=65&amp;t=13412&amp;p=211761#p211761</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Brian Ganek wrote:</cite>I don't know most of the increase in atmospheric CO2 since 1830 is from fossil fuel use.  If there was no atmospheric CO2, perhaps water vapor's greenhouse gas effect would warm the Earth above freezing.</div></blockquote><br />How much of that CO<sub>2</sub> was released from the ocean and the tundra by atmospheric warming itself? Perhaps the cart is leading the horse, just a bit.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (landrew)</author>
            <category>SKEPTIC Magazine: Letters &amp; Discussions</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=65&amp;t=13412</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:05:21 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>SKEPTIC Magazine: Letters &amp; Discussions :: Re: David Brin vs. ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=65&amp;t=13412&amp;p=211767#p211767</link>
            <description><![CDATA['<br /><blockquote><div><cite>landrew wrote:</cite>How much of that CO<sub>2</sub> was released from the ocean and the tundra by atmospheric warming itself? Perhaps the cart is leading the horse, just a bit.<br /></div></blockquote><br />Did you ever hear of something called a &quot;feedback loop&quot;?<br /><br />.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (numan)</author>
            <category>SKEPTIC Magazine: Letters &amp; Discussions</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=65&amp;t=13412</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:16:28 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>SKEPTIC Magazine: Letters &amp; Discussions :: Re: David Brin vs. ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=65&amp;t=13412&amp;p=211768#p211768</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>numan wrote:</cite>'<br /><blockquote><div><cite>landrew wrote:</cite>How much of that CO<sub>2</sub> was released from the ocean and the tundra by atmospheric warming itself? Perhaps the cart is leading the horse, just a bit.<br /></div></blockquote><br />Did you ever hear of something called a &quot;feedback loop&quot;?<br /><br />.</div></blockquote><br />I can't believe I'm responding to this, but of course I have.  I've also heard of an anti-feedback loop, an example of which is increased plant growth in greater concentrations of CO<sub>2</sub>.  <br /><br />It's not even bad science to assume that anything you observe happening together is a feedback loop or even correlated.<br /><br />The point is that we don't know nearly as much as we think we know about the climate.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (landrew)</author>
            <category>SKEPTIC Magazine: Letters &amp; Discussions</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=65&amp;t=13412</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:23:31 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>SKEPTIC Magazine: Letters &amp; Discussions :: Re: David Brin vs. ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=65&amp;t=13412&amp;p=211786#p211786</link>
            <description><![CDATA['<br /><blockquote><div><cite>landrew wrote:</cite>The point is that we don't know nearly as much as we think we know about the climate.<br /></div></blockquote><br />Offhand, I can't think of a more exact term for this logical fallacy than: &quot;red herring.&quot;<br /><br />It implies that since we do not know everything about climate, therefore we know <span style="text-decoration: underline">nothing</span> about climate.<br /><br />In fact, we know that CO2 concentration in the atmosphere has increased significantly since the nineteenth century, that most of this increase has been due to human activity, that in the absence of countervailing forces this increase must produce heating, and that global temperatures <span style="text-decoration: underline">have</span> increased!<br /><br />.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (numan)</author>
            <category>SKEPTIC Magazine: Letters &amp; Discussions</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=65&amp;t=13412</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:35:36 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>SKEPTIC Magazine: Letters &amp; Discussions :: Re: David Brin vs. ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=65&amp;t=13412&amp;p=211791#p211791</link>
            <description><![CDATA[It would be nice to have a repeatable experiment where a known amount of greenhouse gas is released into or capture from the atmosphere, and try to detect the smallest measurable temperature change.  That would give us the information we need.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Brian Ganek)</author>
            <category>SKEPTIC Magazine: Letters &amp; Discussions</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=65&amp;t=13412</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:20:25 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>SKEPTIC Magazine: Letters &amp; Discussions :: Re: David Brin vs. ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=65&amp;t=13412&amp;p=211813#p211813</link>
            <description><![CDATA['<br />Nice, but not necessary, since the information can be calculated from the principles of physical law.<br /><br />.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (numan)</author>
            <category>SKEPTIC Magazine: Letters &amp; Discussions</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=65&amp;t=13412</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 20:57:50 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>SKEPTIC Magazine: Letters &amp; Discussions :: Re: David Brin vs. ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=65&amp;t=13412&amp;p=211822#p211822</link>
            <description><![CDATA[I'm glad your calculations are so accurate.  What is the long range climate forecast accuracy rate?  90%?<br /><br />Not hardly, we don't know all the factors that influence climate, or their magnitude.  That's why experimental tests are essential.<br /><br />I like your faith, numan, but not your facts.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Brian Ganek)</author>
            <category>SKEPTIC Magazine: Letters &amp; Discussions</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=65&amp;t=13412</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 21:55:18 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Consciousness - The Motivator :: Reply by landrew</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13394&amp;p=211800#p211800</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Gord wrote:</cite>How do we know that we don't have many separate consciousnesses within our mind?  That would explain several things, such as where ideas come from, and how I can juggle without even watching the balls (but I can't juggle with my eyes closed).</div></blockquote><br />Its because you don't know how to use the force.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (landrew)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13394</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 19:13:18 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Consciousness - The Motivator :: Reply by vanderpoel</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13394&amp;p=211811#p211811</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>landrew wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>Gord wrote:</cite>How do we know that we don't have many separate consciousnesses within our mind?  That would explain several things, such as where ideas come from, and how I can juggle without even watching the balls (but I can't juggle with my eyes closed).</div></blockquote><br />Its because you don't know how to use the force.</div></blockquote><br />Or because you're not married.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (vanderpoel)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13394</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 20:39:41 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Consciousness - The Motivator :: Reply by Gord</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13394&amp;p=211838#p211838</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Dimebag wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>Gord wrote:</cite>How do we know that we don't have many separate consciousnesses within our mind?  That would explain several things, such as where ideas come from, and how I can juggle without even watching the balls (but I can't juggle with my eyes closed).</div></blockquote><br /><br />the problem with having separate consciousnesses in one mind is that each one would be unable to communicate with the others. Take for example Dissociative Identity Disorder. A person's psyche becomes fractured to the point where different aspects of their personality and behaviour become segregated, and neither of them has shared memories in some cases. This is not an ideal state as a person's functioning would be impaired. I think the same would apy to consciousness, if it were possible for multiple consciouses to be present at once you would be so disordered and chaotic you would have difficulty functioning in reality.</div></blockquote><br />But doesn't this Dissociative Identity Disorder suggest that multiple consciousnesses <em>do</em> exist in the first place?  Otherwise, where do these &quot;extra&quot; personalities come from?  It may be the normal state for one personality to rule the others, and only when something breaks down would Dissociative Identity Disorder show through.<br /><br />(This all avoids the fundamental question of whether or not Dissociative Identity Disorder actually exists at all, of course.)]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Gord)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13394</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 01:19:52 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Consciousness - The Motivator :: Reply by Squishua</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13394&amp;p=211844#p211844</link>
            <description><![CDATA[I think the Big Issue has been the experiencer or the perceiver of the <em>qualia</em> of events.<br /><br />Think of it this way:<br />What is it that <em>experiences</em> the thoughts and events of perception in the brain?<br /><br />It's a big Unknown]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Squishua)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13394</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 01:50:08 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Consciousness - The Motivator :: Reply by Gord</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13394&amp;p=211847#p211847</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Squishua wrote:</cite>What is it that <em>experiences</em> the thoughts and events of perception in the brain?</div></blockquote><br />It's the brain.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Gord)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13394</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 01:53:44 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Consciousness - The Motivator :: Reply by Dimebag</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13394&amp;p=211848#p211848</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Gord wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>Squishua wrote:</cite>What is it that <em>experiences</em> the thoughts and events of perception in the brain?</div></blockquote><br />It's the brain.</div></blockquote><br /><br />exactly, the self is an illusion, the experiences themselves ARE the self. We are the sum of our experiences.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Dimebag)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13394</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 01:59:46 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Consciousness - The Motivator :: Reply by Squishua</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13394&amp;p=211851#p211851</link>
            <description><![CDATA[But is there a &quot;self&quot; in computers that experiences the input/output events?<br /><br />Red light has a wavelength of approximately 632nm. How is the qualia of the color red experienced?<br /><br />Here there be rabbit-holes!]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Squishua)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13394</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 02:19:12 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Consciousness - The Motivator :: Reply by vanderpoel</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13394&amp;p=211854#p211854</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Gord wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>Squishua wrote:</cite>What is it that <em>experiences</em> the thoughts and events of perception in the brain?</div></blockquote><br />It's the brain.</div></blockquote><br />Memory.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (vanderpoel)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13394</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 04:35:54 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Consciousness - The Motivator :: Reply by fromthehills</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13394&amp;p=211855#p211855</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>vanderpoel wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>Gord wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>Squishua wrote:</cite>What is it that <em>experiences</em> the thoughts and events of perception in the brain?</div></blockquote><br />It's the brain.</div></blockquote><br />Memory.</div></blockquote><br /> <img src="http://www.skepticforum.com/images/smilies/shakefist.gif" alt=":shakefist:" title="Shake Fist" />  Elaborate now and then, Van.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (fromthehills)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13394</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 04:59:48 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Consciousness - The Motivator :: Reply by Gord</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13394&amp;p=211856#p211856</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>vanderpoel wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>Gord wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>Squishua wrote:</cite>What is it that <em>experiences</em> the thoughts and events of perception in the brain?</div></blockquote><br />It's the brain.</div></blockquote><br />Memory.</div></blockquote><br />Memory is just a replay of the thoughts and events of perception in the brain.<br /><br />We seem to be suggesting here that the physical aspect of the brain somehow displays these thoughts and events to a &quot;viewer,&quot; the same way a video recorder displays the things on a video tape to a person who is watching their television.  But I'm thinking this is an unnecessary complication -- no &quot;outside viewer&quot; is required.  The brain itself (in other words, the video recorder) can be the thing experiencing the thoughts and events of perception (both playing and viewing the video).  The brain also &quot;puts the recording on the tape,&quot; forming the memories which it can &quot;replay&quot; later to &quot;watch it again.&quot;<br /><br />The brain is the recording, the video player, and the viewer, all in one.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Gord)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13394</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 05:01:32 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Consciousness - The Motivator :: Reply by fromthehills</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13394&amp;p=211857#p211857</link>
            <description><![CDATA[You're not helping.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (fromthehills)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13394</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 05:06:46 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Consciousness - The Motivator :: Reply by vanderpoel</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13394&amp;p=211860#p211860</link>
            <description><![CDATA[For us to know a sensation enough to attach a value to it we must recognize it.<br />Such recognition requires memory. We think memory resides in the brain but we can't find it and it's possible that it exists outside the brain.<br /><br />Makes me wonder where lost memories live.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (vanderpoel)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13394</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 05:46:11 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Consciousness - The Motivator :: Reply by Squishua</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13394&amp;p=211861#p211861</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Gord wrote:</cite>We seem to be suggesting here that the physical aspect of the brain somehow displays these thoughts and events to a &quot;viewer,&quot; the same way a video recorder displays the things on a video tape to a person who is watching their television.</div></blockquote><br />Not at all.  I'm only suggesting the experience of <em>awareness</em> is common to us all... and quite confounding to explain from any known principles.<br /><br />There are superstitious &quot;explanations&quot; as well as not-unreasonable scientific conjectures, but nothing &quot;settles&quot; it.  Not even close.<br /><br />It's just a weird thing.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Squishua)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13394</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 05:47:34 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Consciousness - The Motivator :: Reply by Dimebag</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13394&amp;p=211862#p211862</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Squishua wrote:</cite>But is there a &quot;self&quot; in computers that experiences the input/output events?<br /><br />Red light has a wavelength of approximately 632nm. How is the qualia of the color red experienced?<br /><br />Here there be rabbit-holes!</div></blockquote><br /><br />no I don't believe computers have or ever will have the capacity for experience. Like you say, somehow our brain states are represented by qualia, who knows yet how. But qualia are usually referred to as a sense experience. The sensory perception system I would say has alot to do with qualia and their production. no computer system has achieved the complexity of our perceptual system, and until they do, they will be no closer to experiencing the colour red than a temperature regulator 'feels' temperature. Of course there are rabbitholes, no one yet can explain the details of consciousness, which is why it must be discussed, tested if possible, theorized, until we reach a better understanding.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Dimebag)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13394</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 06:09:47 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Consciousness - The Motivator :: Reply by Dimebag</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13394&amp;p=211864#p211864</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>vanderpoel wrote:</cite>For us to know a sensation enough to attach a value to it we must recognize it.<br />Such recognition requires memory. We think memory resides in the brain but we can't find it and it's possible that it exists outside the brain.<br /><br />Makes me wonder where lost memories live.</div></blockquote><br /><br />from my understanding, a memory is the persistence of a network of neurons. First we have schemas, broad categories for which any kind of thing can be represented, like an cat - with characteristics such as furry, tail, their particular shape etc. All of these schemas can be referenced from memories. Like if you have a memory of seeing a cat fall off a chair; the event itself will be given some overarching attachment, something the memory is associated with like a feeling such as humour, attached to this is the category cat, an action of falling and a chair. These elements of the memory are all schemas, and you can think of a memory as the related connections between schemas that persist. All of these elements can be represented visually as well, allowing you to remember the scenario visually.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Dimebag)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13394</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 06:21:36 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Is consciousness an illusion? :: Reply by Philip Ludikar</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13329&amp;p=211781#p211781</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Dimebag wrote:</cite>I would also like to draw your attention to the term illusion. It is quite obvious Im sure to most people that consciousness exists, for if it did not, we probably would not be experiencing this conversation (I mean can a philosophical zombie really philosophize? Well apparrently, but anyway). Maybe instead of using the term illusion, meaning that we are tricked into thinking that we are seeing something which is not really there, the term mirage could be more useful? Take for example if you are in the desert, it is terribly hot and the sky is clear, sun Is shining and the land is completely flat all the way to the horizon. Because the light is striking the horizon at a certain angle we see something which looks like water on the horizon, but it is really a reflection of the sky bouncing off the sand in the distance. Could consciousness be something like this? A reflection of our brain states, and nothing more? <br /></div></blockquote><br /><br />I´d like to dwell on this point, because I´m not sure if we´re just talking about different things or if we have a fundamental difference in our reasoning. I can agree with you that the idea of consciousness being a single faculty of the mind might be a mirage or an illusion. Quite possibly consciousness might have arisen out of an accident of biology. (Nevertheless, I don´t believe so, because not many, if any, biological features arise by accident.) Possibly consciousness could be a reflection of brain states. What consciousness is, how it is formed, how it operates and so on, are all debatable questions. But one idea which is not possible for me to deny is that I exist. I presume, too, that you know you exist. This is because we are aware of our existence. We call this awareness &quot;consciousness&quot;. The existence of our own consciousnesses is therefore the one thing we can be absolutely certain of and here there is no room for doubt. So, in our debate about consciousness, are we talking about the same thing?]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Philip Ludikar)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13329</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:25:00 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Is consciousness an illusion? :: Reply by Gord</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13329&amp;p=211837#p211837</link>
            <description><![CDATA[I'm not sure I exist.  What does that mean to the argument, then?]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Gord)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13329</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 01:12:09 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Is consciousness an illusion? :: Reply by Dimebag</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13329&amp;p=211850#p211850</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Philip Ludikar wrote:</cite>I´d like to dwell on this point, because I´m not sure if we´re just talking about different things or if we have a fundamental difference in our reasoning. I can agree with you that the idea of consciousness being a single faculty of the mind might be a mirage or an illusion. Quite possibly consciousness might have arisen out of an accident of biology. (Nevertheless, I don´t believe so, because not many, if any, biological features arise by accident.) Possibly consciousness could be a reflection of brain states. What consciousness is, how it is formed, how it operates and so on, are all debatable questions. But one idea which is not possible for me to deny is that I exist. I presume, too, that you know you exist. This is because we are aware of our existence. We call this awareness &quot;consciousness&quot;. The existence of our own consciousnesses is therefore the one thing we can be absolutely certain of and here there is no room for doubt. So, in our debate about consciousness, are we talking about the same thing?</div></blockquote><br /><br />well if you read my earlier post you will see that I don't actually think consciousness is an illusion, but I was trying to imagine how it could possibly be an illusion, and as you can see my example was full of holes so, I don't think the reality of consciousness is threatened just yet.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Dimebag)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13329</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 02:06:30 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Is consciousness an illusion? :: Reply by Philip Ludikar</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13329&amp;p=211872#p211872</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Dimebag wrote:</cite>well if you read my earlier post you will see that I don't actually think consciousness is an illusion, but I was trying to imagine how it could possibly be an illusion, and as you can see my example was full of holes so, I don't think the reality of consciousness is threatened just yet.</div></blockquote><br /><br />I know you don´t actually think consciousness is an illusion. But even in this reply you allow for the possibility that it could be an illusion. What I am saying is there is no possibility that consciousness is an illusion. It´s the only thing that we can be absolutely sure is not an illusion. I presume you don´t agree with my absolutist stance on this - perhaps you could say why?]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Philip Ludikar)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13329</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:25:14 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Why Do We Have A Personality? :: Reply by Thinkingofthought</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13519&amp;p=211858#p211858</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Why do we have personality?<br /><br />Maybe there is an always growing and changing variety of personalities to create an endless stream of possibility in a universe that seems to be all about limitless possibilities. <br />Does that make any sense? It's early and I've just rolled out of bed.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Thinkingofthought)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13519</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 05:06:51 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Why Do We Have A Personality? :: Reply by 4sure</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13519&amp;p=211863#p211863</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Identical twins, have identical DNA and I'm 4sure to say that genetics does not fully determine our personality. However, I do think it gives a predisposition of how we may perceive things..Our personality is determined by how we perceive our life experiences...and not two people can exactly share all of the same experiences and if they could, then I'm 4sure they would perceive them differently. ..<br /><br />I'm sure you all have seen studies of twins that were separated at birth and how they turned out to be more a  like than twins being raised together...tell me genetics has nothing to do with it...I think the evidence is overwhelming.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (4sure)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13519</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 06:16:36 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Why Do We Have A Personality? :: Reply by ruben lopez</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13519&amp;p=211866#p211866</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Most twins behave as two separate entitites. does that get me a prize for stating the most obvious observation of the day?<br /><br />People are like snowflakes. They annoy the hell out of me. Online? eh, not so much.<br />Like the Major says, it's the differences that set us apart. It's that damn pop culture, I tells ya. Shock value has it's blame. I may want the nice, quiet girl at the back of the room, reading a book, but I'm gonna end up with the girl who lifts up her shirt for everyone to see. That's a personality flaw on my part. But it gets the girls. Major, sir, you {!#%@} genius, sir!]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (ruben lopez)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13519</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 06:37:50 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Why Do We Have A Personality? :: Reply by 4sure</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13519&amp;p=211868#p211868</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote class="uncited"><div>Most twins behave as two separate entitites</div></blockquote><br /><br />And why is that? Then you can have the prize..... <img src="http://www.skepticforum.com/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" />]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (4sure)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13519</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 06:54:12 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Why Do We Have A Personality? :: Reply by ruben lopez</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13519&amp;p=211870#p211870</link>
            <description><![CDATA[drum roll<br /><br />Because they <em>are</em> two separate entities. <img src="http://www.skepticforum.com/images/smilies/PDT_bis.gif" alt=":roses:" title="Accolades" /><br /><br /><br />I have never met two people who are just exactly the same  alike. There is only different degrees of {!#%@} or coolnitude. That's all.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (ruben lopez)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13519</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:10:30 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Why Do We Have A Personality? :: Reply by 4sure</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13519&amp;p=211873#p211873</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>ruben lopez wrote:</cite>drum roll<br /><br />Because they <em>are</em> two separate entities. <img src="http://www.skepticforum.com/images/smilies/PDT_bis.gif" alt=":roses:" title="Accolades" /><br /><br /><br />I have never met two people who are just exactly the same  alike. There is only different degrees of {!#%@} or coolnitude. That's all.</div></blockquote><br /><br />Damn, your brilliant but huh...  what does &quot;identical&quot; mean when we speak of Identical twins?  And if they have all of the identical hardware then how do they become different? .....I know people talk of  a trinity of entities that are the same as one......]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (4sure)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13519</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:34:59 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness :: Re: Why Do We Have A Personality? :: Reply by ruben lopez</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&amp;t=13519&amp;p=211874#p211874</link>
            <description><![CDATA[The genetic makeup of two identical twins has nothing to do with their personality. I am in no way an expert on twins, but I would say that if two identical twins had the same exact personality, they would be the exception. Again, you could have two twins who behave or act similarly, but as far as a measurable personality, I bet they vary, slightly if not greatly.<br />Not sure why you would invoke a trinity of entities and the people who talk of them as if they are one. Them folks is nuts.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (ruben lopez)</author>
            <category>Brain, Mind, &amp; Consciousness</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=32&amp;t=13519</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:12:14 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Healthcare :: Re: Head lice and essential oils. :: Reply by landrew</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&amp;t=9731&amp;p=211796#p211796</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Anything works if you're committed to thinking it works.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (landrew)</author>
            <category>Healthcare</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=54&amp;t=9731</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:35:08 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Healthcare :: Re: Head lice and essential oils. :: Reply by Lance Kennedy</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&amp;t=9731&amp;p=211808#p211808</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Actually, landrew, I somehow do not think that applies to head lice.<br /><br />Tea tree oil no doubt does work.   I do not think that point is in doubt.   So do a thousand other products.  The question is which is safest.   I would go for synthetic pyrethroids, which are very toxic to arthropods, very non toxic to humans, and require relatively little to do the job.<br /><br />I have a bit of a suspicion that the really nasty products, like malathion and lindane, are few and far between in developed nations.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Lance Kennedy)</author>
            <category>Healthcare</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=54&amp;t=9731</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 19:57:35 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Healthcare :: Re: Head lice and essential oils. :: Reply by landrew</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&amp;t=9731&amp;p=211821#p211821</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Lance Kennedy wrote:</cite>Actually, landrew, I somehow do not think that applies to head lice.<br /><br />Tea tree oil no doubt does work.   I do not think that point is in doubt.   So do a thousand other products.  The question is which is safest.   I would go for synthetic pyrethroids, which are very toxic to arthropods, very non toxic to humans, and require relatively little to do the job.<br /><br />I have a bit of a suspicion that the really nasty products, like malathion and lindane, are few and far between in developed nations.</div></blockquote><br />I guess anything which would irritate the little buggers would work to some extent.  I'm not saying tea tree oil doesn't work, but it's hard to sift it out  from the thousands of other claims which say they work, whether they do or not.  <br /><br />I believe some fruit flies are now immune to pyrethroids, which is bound to happen eventually with almost any chemical.  I am a bit appalled by the insecticide manufacturers who decided to call pyrethrins &quot;natural source&quot; just because they happen to be produced in chrysanthemums.  Nicotine is also <em>natural source</em> but that does nothing to make it any safer.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (landrew)</author>
            <category>Healthcare</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=54&amp;t=9731</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 21:49:49 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Healthcare :: Re: Head lice and essential oils. :: Reply by Lance Kennedy</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&amp;t=9731&amp;p=211823#p211823</link>
            <description><![CDATA[I agree landrew.<br /><br />Do you know if that fruit fly immunity is to most pyrethroids, or just a few?<br /><br />The 'natural' one is pyrethrum, extracted from chrysanthemums.  It is not actually terribly potent, and acts more as an insect repellent than insecticide.  Synthetic pyrethoids are modified and synthesized versions, which are much more potent and probably safer.   Note that pyrethrum is listed by the EPA as a suspected carcinogen at high doses.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Lance Kennedy)</author>
            <category>Healthcare</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=54&amp;t=9731</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:00:51 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Healthcare :: Re: Head lice and essential oils. :: Reply by landrew</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&amp;t=9731&amp;p=211824#p211824</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Lance Kennedy wrote:</cite>I agree landrew.<br /><br />Do you know if that fruit fly immunity is to most pyrethroids, or just a few?<br /><br />The 'natural' one is pyrethrum, extracted from chrysanthemums.  It is not actually terribly potent, and acts more as an insect repellent than insecticide.  Synthetic pyrethoids are modified and synthesized versions, which are much more potent and probably safer.   Note that pyrethrum is listed by the EPA as a suspected carcinogen at high doses.</div></blockquote><br />I know that the fruit flies in my house are unaffected by pyrethrins, and I have been meaning to look up on the web. So far I have found a few scientific papers that discuss it, but nothing about it in the news media so far.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (landrew)</author>
            <category>Healthcare</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=54&amp;t=9731</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:10:44 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Healthcare :: Re: Head lice and essential oils. :: Reply by Gord</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&amp;t=9731&amp;p=211842#p211842</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>landrew wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>Lance Kennedy wrote:</cite>I agree landrew.<br /><br />Do you know if that fruit fly immunity is to most pyrethroids, or just a few?<br /><br />The 'natural' one is pyrethrum, extracted from chrysanthemums.  It is not actually terribly potent, and acts more as an insect repellent than insecticide.  Synthetic pyrethoids are modified and synthesized versions, which are much more potent and probably safer.   Note that pyrethrum is listed by the EPA as a suspected carcinogen at high doses.</div></blockquote><br />I know that the fruit flies in my house....</div></blockquote><br /><em>Drosophila landrewsdomicila?</em>]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Gord)</author>
            <category>Healthcare</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=54&amp;t=9731</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 01:42:24 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Healthcare :: Re: Head lice and essential oils. :: Reply by Bunyip</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&amp;t=9731&amp;p=211879#p211879</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Tea Tree oil,like eucalyptus oil  has been produced and widely available in Australia for generations. Both oils have several uses. <br /><br />:Here the oils are sold in health shops and pharmacies. Their uses are clearly labelled and sellers as well as users are aware of the proper use. <br /><br />Few essential oils are used undiluted as far as I know.<br /><br /><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Tea tree oil, or melaleuca oil, is a pale yellow colour to nearly clear hydrophobic essential oil with a fresh camphoraceous odor.[1] It is taken from the leaves of the Melaleuca alternifolia, which is native to the northeast coast of New South Wales, Australia. Tea tree oil should not be confused with tea oil, the sweet seasoning and cooking oil from pressed seeds of the tea plant Camellia sinensis (beverage tea), or the tea oil plant Camellia oleifera.<br />Tea tree oil has beneficial medical properties when applied topically, including antiseptic, antibacterial, antifungal, and antiviral action,[2] and is also believed to have beneficial cosmetic properties.[citation needed] Tea tree oil is usually used diluted, as reactions are common with pure tea tree oil, but it can also cause irritation for some people when diluted. Tea tree oil is toxic when taken internally, and so should never be added to food or drinks.  </div></blockquote><br /><br /><!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_tree_oil" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_tree_oil</a><!-- m --><br /><br /><br /><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Eucalyptus oil is the generic name for distilled oil from the leaf of Eucalyptus, a genus of the plant family Myrtaceae native to Australia and cultivated worldwide. Eucalyptus oil has a history of wide application, as a pharmaceutical, antiseptic, repellent, flavouring, fragrance and industrial uses. The leaves of selected Eucalyptus species are steam distilled to extract eucalyptus oil.  </div></blockquote><br /><br /><br /><!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucalyptus_oi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucalyptus_oi</a><!-- m -->]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Bunyip)</author>
            <category>Healthcare</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=54&amp;t=9731</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:03:58 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Healthcare :: Re: Glaxo Conspiracy Against Discovery of Helicobacter Pylor :: Reply by OlegTheBatty</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&amp;t=13642&amp;p=211757#p211757</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Scientist A proposes an unorthodox hypothesis. Scientists B, C, D pooh pooh the idea without investigation. I fail to see how this prevents scientist E, F, ... N from investigating to confirm or falsify scientist A's results. <br />That is the crux of landrew's position, that B,C and D somehow prevent E ... N from proceeding.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (OlegTheBatty)</author>
            <category>Healthcare</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=54&amp;t=13642</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 15:34:46 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Healthcare :: Re: Glaxo Conspiracy Against Discovery of Helicobacter Pylor :: Reply by JJM</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&amp;t=13642&amp;p=211758#p211758</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>OlegTheBatty wrote:</cite>Scientist A proposes an unorthodox hypothesis. Scientists B, C, D pooh pooh the idea without investigation. I fail to see how this prevents scientist E, F, ... N from investigating to confirm or falsify scientist A's results. <br />That is the crux of landrew's position, that B,C and D somehow prevent E ... N from proceeding.</div></blockquote>Exactly!]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (JJM)</author>
            <category>Healthcare</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=54&amp;t=13642</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 15:48:44 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Healthcare :: Re: Glaxo Conspiracy Against Discovery of Helicobacter Pylor :: Reply by fraben</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&amp;t=13642&amp;p=211759#p211759</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<strong>Blacksamwell</strong> Sorry - corrected<br /><br />Concerning timeline - I do not know much. I've read in some details only on Licudis case. It is also shocking but completely different story.<br />Here is link to <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=lK4ATW-lQZQC&amp;pg=PA82&amp;lpg=PA82&amp;dq=Licudis+ulcers&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=-hBa1PXdPG&amp;sig=h2QjjhjXq2x6NQMhaxjVGMY9Bcw&amp;hl=en&amp;ei=9AKJTOuZII2POLOstacO&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=book_result&amp;ct=result&amp;resnum=1&amp;ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">rejection letter from JAMA</a> (of 1966)]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (fraben)</author>
            <category>Healthcare</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=54&amp;t=13642</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 15:59:20 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Healthcare :: Re: Glaxo Conspiracy Against Discovery of Helicobacter Pylor :: Reply by landrew</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&amp;t=13642&amp;p=211760#p211760</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>OlegTheBatty wrote:</cite>Scientist A proposes an unorthodox hypothesis. Scientists B, C, D pooh pooh the idea without investigation. I fail to see how this prevents scientist E, F, ... N from investigating to confirm or falsify scientist A's results. <br />That is the crux of landrew's position, that B,C and D somehow prevent E ... N from proceeding.</div></blockquote><br />Except in the cases where E, F and G don't have the mettle to take on the system, or choose to pay the costs of going against the flow.<br /><br />The crux of my position is the possible unknown costs to society these attitudes incur.  By examining the few that slip through the net, we may get a vague idea of how many were held back.<br /><br />A similar certitude exists in the legal system, where simple answers were allowed to trump more scientific reasoning.  When DNA testing was showing an alarmingly high level of wrongful convictions, some states were moved to suspend the death penalty, out of recognition of the flaws in the legal process.<br /><br />Similarly, skeptical certitude may have greater costs to society than many of us imagine. We may never know unless we reexamine our skeptical attitudes and compare them to the scientific method.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (landrew)</author>
            <category>Healthcare</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=54&amp;t=13642</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 15:59:36 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Healthcare :: Re: Glaxo Conspiracy Against Discovery of Helicobacter Pylor :: Reply by JJM</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&amp;t=13642&amp;p=211762#p211762</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Pyrrho wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>landrew wrote:</cite>As the timeline clearly shows, many early leads that could have led to an antibiotic cure weren't pursued.  You can look at it as an eventual success, or as a long-running error.  Simply put, such a basic cure should have been discovered decades ago, but was prevented by orthodoxy which was in error.</div></blockquote><br />The timeline is severely lacking in pertinent detail. It would do to read the peer-reviewed medical literature in addition to WikiPedia.  ...</div></blockquote>Truer words were never wrote.  <br /><blockquote><div><cite>Pyrrho wrote:</cite>For what it's worth, landrew's assertion is supported by the opinions of real experts in gastroenterology:  <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://content.karger.com/produktedb/produkte.asp?typ=fulltext&amp;file=dig59001" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" rel="nofollow">http://content.karger.com/produktedb/pr ... e=dig59001</a><!-- m --><br /><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Furthermore, dogma and the intellectual chorus were in harmony advocating that gastric acid was critical in ulcer disease. The consideration of a role for a pathogen or pepsin was regarded as whimsical in the context of mucosal ulceration. Indeed, the effects of acid inhibitory agents were held as gospel truth whilst the use of antibiotics or metallic ions were deemd to be quackery or at least ill judged.</div></blockquote></div></blockquote>Here, I must disagree.  As Blacksamwell has observed, we lack the resources to pursue every potential lead.  So, we prioritize leads according to the best available information at the time.  As a Monday morning quarterback, Landrew can say what went ostensibly wrong; but, in the contemporary context of the research, he cannot point out a clear alternative (it is only clear in hindsight).  <br /><br />I challenge Landrew to pick any current scientific controversy and tell us how to proceed to resolve it expeditiously.  If Landrew (or anyone) had that knowledge, we would settle the claims for which Landy is keeping an open mind.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (JJM)</author>
            <category>Healthcare</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=54&amp;t=13642</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:11:48 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Healthcare :: Re: Glaxo Conspiracy Against Discovery of Helicobacter Pylor :: Reply by JO 753</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&amp;t=13642&amp;p=211769#p211769</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Hard to understand why anybody woud dout that GSK did this. Its only 1 uv many similar casez that show a motivationally predictable pattern uv behavior by all the drug companyz. Not even the biggest skam.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/14/60minutes/main3831900.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">1000 deaths per month</a>]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (JO 753)</author>
            <category>Healthcare</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=54&amp;t=13642</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:38:15 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Healthcare :: Re: Glaxo Conspiracy Against Discovery of Helicobacter Pylor :: Reply by fraben</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&amp;t=13642&amp;p=211877#p211877</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Yes, thank you for turning to Glaxo (though link is about Bayer)<br />H.Pylory seems the biggest;  $3bln. &quot;settlement&quot; of 2006 was also HP-related. (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlaxoSmithKline" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">wikipedia - GSK</a>)<br /><br />I have a small question regarding its incredible invincibility.<br /><a href="http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/nlw/research_reports/docs/BDRC_ST_Report_No_8.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" class="postlink pdf_link" rel="nofollow">There is information&gt;&gt;</a> that Glaxo has developed &quot;short acting fentanyl analogues&quot;  similar to KGB' secret  incapacitating gas used in operation in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">Dubrovka theatre hostage crisis</a> of 2002. <br /><br />Is it a proof that Glaxo works for secret military projects. Is it an open secret?]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (fraben)</author>
            <category>Healthcare</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=54&amp;t=13642</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 09:00:39 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Healthcare :: Re: Glaxo Conspiracy Against Discovery of Helicobacter Pylor :: Reply by landrew</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&amp;t=13642&amp;p=211881#p211881</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Pyrrho wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>landrew wrote:</cite>As the timeline clearly shows, many early leads that could have led to an antibiotic cure weren't pursued.  You can look at it as an eventual success, or as a long-running error.  Simply put, such a basic cure should have been discovered decades ago, but was prevented by orthodoxy which was in error.</div></blockquote><br />The timeline is severely lacking in pertinent detail. It would do to read the peer-reviewed medical literature in addition to WikiPedia.<br /><br />One primary problem was that the organism wasn't cultured until 1982, even though it had been observed earlier, and even then the successful culture was &quot;almost accidental&quot;. According to the book, it was an unplanned fortuitous event which resulted in the organism being successfully cultured. One does need something to study; observing the organism in biopsies is insufficient for a more thorough understanding and testing of the organism.<br /><br />As I said, one does not simply administer antibiotics without following due scientific process, and like it or not, that process involves skepticism, as it should.<br /><br />For what it's worth, landrew's assertion is supported by the opinions of real experts in gastroenterology:<br /><br /><!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://content.karger.com/produktedb/produkte.asp?typ=fulltext&amp;file=dig59001" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" rel="nofollow">http://content.karger.com/produktedb/pr ... e=dig59001</a><!-- m --><br /><br /><blockquote class="uncited"><div>Furthermore, dogma and the intellectual chorus were in harmony advocating that gastric acid was critical in ulcer disease. The consideration of a role for a pathogen or pepsin was regarded as whimsical in the context of mucosal ulceration. Indeed, the effects of acid inhibitory agents were held as gospel truth whilst the use of antibiotics or metallic ions were deemd to be quackery or at least ill judged.</div></blockquote></div></blockquote><br />Regardless, you have more faith in the medical establishment than I do.  We see countless evidence every day of its corruption from top to bottom, favoring expensive treatments over inexpensive cures, with the full backing and support of the government it has paid for.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (landrew)</author>
            <category>Healthcare</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=54&amp;t=13642</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 13:33:14 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Healthcare :: Re: Glaxo Conspiracy Against Discovery of Helicobacter Pylor :: Reply by JJM</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&amp;t=13642&amp;p=211885#p211885</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>landrew wrote:</cite>Regardless, you have more faith in the medical establishment than I do.  We see countless evidence every day of its corruption from top to bottom, favoring expensive treatments over inexpensive cures, with the full backing and support of the government it has paid for.</div></blockquote>Of course, you cannot back that with actual evidence.  Just saying ...]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (JJM)</author>
            <category>Healthcare</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=54&amp;t=13642</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:57:33 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Origins :: Re: A challenge for non-believers. :: Reply by landrew</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&amp;t=12255&amp;p=211766#p211766</link>
            <description><![CDATA[It's not a stretch for a scientist to say that <em>everything we are is a result of our evolution</em>. Its unscientific, in fact to say otherwise.<br /><br />Morality, ethics, compassion, altruism etc. are group traits, which are necessary for social animals to survive. A unified tribe is harder to pick off than a lone hunter-gatherer.  Some of the traits may be hardwired in our genetics, and some are social constructs, but the purpose is generally the same (survival).<br /><br />Belief in a divine magical being with a special set of moral codes for us to follow is fine if you believe in magic, but for those of us who aren't convinced, science will have to do.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (landrew)</author>
            <category>Origins</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=33&amp;t=12255</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:15:22 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Monster Science :: Re: Proof of No Extraterrestrial Life :: Reply by Pyrrho</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=78&amp;t=13568&amp;p=211882#p211882</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>numan wrote:</cite>'<br /><blockquote><div><cite>landrew wrote:</cite>I should have stipulated &quot;intelligent life.&quot;<br /></div></blockquote><br />We are still hoping that it may one day appear on this planet.<br /><br />.</div></blockquote><br />Don't hold your breath.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Pyrrho)</author>
            <category>Monster Science</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=78&amp;t=13568</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 13:53:53 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: My 4 Big Questions :: Reply by Lausten</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=12657&amp;p=211793#p211793</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>eden wrote:</cite>Now the Bible said God did...Wow that just as hard to believe, seem very crazy to believe that. And if Genesis was the only book, I'd probably throw that book away. But there is other books and when I read something in O.T. that call out a even that will happen in the N.T. you start seeing that some people of O.T. had knowledge of future events...quite often too. That's really just as hard to believe too, yet its has been written and recorded. I don't think the O.T. people invented an awesome crystal ball. So, Well, if the bible called out future events and that seems to be true then maybe the whole &quot;God did it&quot; think might be true. The book got a impress batting avarge so far.<br /><br />So I have to try and logicly to think and research this, what I've seem to notice is science seem to come up with many theories and many points and ways to prove there theories, but at the same time there are people who believe in creation that have come up with their own theories and point and counter points. I've read a research allot on both sides of this,  I think creationist have many good points and theories yet they're not took serouly cause the rest of academa has got on the evolution bandwagon and don't care or want to hear or will ignore the creations point of view just cause of what it repersents. Lets face it, both side of this is pretty hard headed. Both Evolution and Creation people have came up with some great theories on the way the world works, but I can say I think creationist gets a bum deal with their theories not taken serouly.  <br /></div></blockquote><br />Eden:<br />I remember you said you were busy and would only check in occasionally. Thanks for at least staying true to your word. I don't remember if you had a reason for your bad spelling and sentence structure. I hope it is not that you just don't care enough to take the time to be clear about you are saying. I think I understand what you mean when you say, &quot;the bible called out future events&quot;, and I would both suggest and request that you be more careful with statements like that. I have wasted a considerable amount of my life disproving that. I spent much of that time not understanding what atheists were so upset about, but once I got passed the notion that there might be something to the idea of prophecy, I looked back and got a bit perturbed that anyone would try to convince me that it was true. <br /><br />I am from Minnesota, so Garrison Keillor tells me I am above average, but really, if I can figure out that its crap, anybody can. Anyone who spends enough time to write a book about an inerrant Bible has spent enough time to figure out that the Bible is not inerrant. It is not one coherent story and early parts do not predict later parts. Later parts are written by people who read the earlier parts and made their parts fit. They wanted to be part of the story. The five minutes I took to write this is just more of the waste of my life and anything else on this topic will result in insults from me about your heritage and sexual preferences. <br /><br />If you want to post any other theories, please first run through this list of questions. <br /><br /><a href="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html</a><br /><br />This is designed by a physicist for theories about physics, but you can translate it pretty easy. Here are several of the points that you scored:<br /><br />#  10 points for beginning the description of your theory by saying how long you have been working on it. (10 more for emphasizing that you worked on your own.)<br /><br /># 10 points for each new term you invent and use without properly defining it.<br /><br /># 10 points for arguing that a current well-established theory is &quot;only a theory&quot;, as if this were somehow a point against it.<br /><br /># 10 points for arguing that while a current well-established theory predicts phenomena correctly, it doesn't explain &quot;why&quot; they occur, or fails to provide a &quot;mechanism&quot;. <br /><br />#  40 points for claiming that the &quot;scientific establishment&quot; is engaged in a &quot;conspiracy&quot; to prevent your work from gaining its well-deserved fame, or suchlike.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Lausten)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=83&amp;t=12657</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:23:54 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: My 4 Big Questions :: Reply by landrew</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=12657&amp;p=211795#p211795</link>
            <description><![CDATA[I've heard of a few anxious moments in seminary bible classes where it was revealed that the bible is not the literal transcribed work of god.  Some people are quite prepared to accept such facts, not unlike the people who refused to look through Gallieo's telescope because what they might see might be a heresy of some sort.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (landrew)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=83&amp;t=12657</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:29:19 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: My 4 Big Questions :: Reply by nmblum</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=12657&amp;p=211806#p211806</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Lausten wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>eden wrote:</cite>Now the Bible said God did...Wow that just as hard to believe, seem very crazy to believe that. And if Genesis was the only book, I'd probably throw that book away. But there is other books and when I read something in O.T. that call out a even that will happen in the N.T. you start seeing that some people of O.T. had knowledge of future events...quite often too. That's really just as hard to believe too, yet its has been written and recorded. I don't think the O.T. people invented an awesome crystal ball. So, Well, if the bible called out future events and that seems to be true then maybe the whole &quot;God did it&quot; think might be true. The book got a impress batting avarge so far.<br /><br />So I have to try and logicly to think and research this, what I've seem to notice is science seem to come up with many theories and many points and ways to prove there theories, but at the same time there are people who believe in creation that have come up with their own theories and point and counter points. I've read a research allot on both sides of this,  I think creationist have many good points and theories yet they're not took serouly cause the rest of academa has got on the evolution bandwagon and don't care or want to hear or will ignore the creations point of view just cause of what it repersents. Lets face it, both side of this is pretty hard headed. Both Evolution and Creation people have came up with some great theories on the way the world works, but I can say I think creationist gets a bum deal with their theories not taken serouly.  <br /></div></blockquote><br />Eden:<br />I remember you said you were busy and would only check in occasionally. Thanks for at least staying true to your word. I don't remember if you had a reason for your bad spelling and sentence structure. I hope it is not that you just don't care enough to take the time to be clear about you are saying. I think I understand what you mean when you say, &quot;the bible called out future events&quot;, and I would both suggest and request that you be more careful with statements like that. I have wasted a considerable amount of my life disproving that. I spent much of that time not understanding what atheists were so upset about, but once I got passed the notion that there might be something to the idea of prophecy, I looked back and got a bit perturbed that anyone would try to convince me that it was true. <br /><br />I am from Minnesota, so Garrison Keillor tells me I am above average, but really, if I can figure out that its crap, anybody can. Anyone who spends enough time to write a book about an inerrant Bible has spent enough time to figure out that the Bible is not inerrant. It is not one coherent story and early parts do not predict later parts. Later parts are written by people who read the earlier parts and made their parts fit. They wanted to be part of the story. The five minutes I took to write this is just more of the waste of my life and anything else on this topic will result in insults from me about your heritage and sexual preferences. <br /><br />If you want to post any other theories, please first run through this list of questions. <br /><br /><a href="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html</a><br /><br />This is designed by a physicist for theories about physics, but you can translate it pretty easy. Here are several of the points that you scored:<br /><br />#  10 points for beginning the description of your theory by saying how long you have been working on it. (10 more for emphasizing that you worked on your own.)<br /><br /># 10 points for each new term you invent and use without properly defining it.<br /><br /># 10 points for arguing that a current well-established theory is &quot;only a theory&quot;, as if this were somehow a point against it.<br /><br /># 10 points for arguing that while a current well-established theory predicts phenomena correctly, it doesn't explain &quot;why&quot; they occur, or fails to provide a &quot;mechanism&quot;. <br /><br />#  40 points for claiming that the &quot;scientific establishment&quot; is engaged in a &quot;conspiracy&quot; to prevent your work from gaining its well-deserved fame, or suchlike.</div></blockquote><br /><br />Lausten, you knock me out... no matter that I have no idea of what you are talking about or why...<br />But this latest foray of yours into the nether world of faith and the resultant critique of the opinions of what  is clearly a pot made of porous  clay,  reminds me of a recent experience with a  friend, a book editor unemployed for a very long time (book publishing is suffering in our current climate of informational overload from less demanding sources) who recently wrote telling me that he had finally found a job, reasonably well paid.....  although he didn't say what it was..<br />Happy for him, I immediately replied asking for the whats, the whys, the wheres and the for whoms.<br />And after three evasive responses,  I  finally got this which I am quoting verbatim, as I have it pasted to the frame of my computer,as a sign of the times, in more ways than one:   <br /> &quot;<em>Okay... here it is, in all its ignominy!  I am editing the memoir, originally 1500 pages, in three  grocery cartons and a rattan chest containing notebooks for fleshing out the details,  of a man, a former Baptist seminarian, who among other remarkable exploits has actually tried to sue the heirs of Izaac Newton.<br />Why, you ask? Because in a past life, Newton stole his Theory of Gravity, AND adding personal insult to obvious injury to scientific integrity,  his wife (who at the time was 14, red haired  and &quot;stacked&quot;  and no, I'm not kidding),  &quot; a love rivaling that of Antony for Cleopatra&quot;  <br />Laugh if you can't help it, but do  not ask again.<br /> And I promise that  when I am finished and get the final payment,    I will visit  you, and  you can shoot me.</em>&quot; <br /><br />NMB]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (nmblum)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=83&amp;t=12657</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 19:47:22 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: On language: the &quot;Dove&quot; contingent speaks out..... ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=13636&amp;p=211763#p211763</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Jeff D wrote:</cite>From the title of this thread, I assumed it was about the “Dove World Outreach Center” (some “world,” a central Florida church with a 50-member congregation) and the very Reverend Terry Jones (makes me think of that other Terry Jones, the Monty Python member and Chaucer scholar) and Mr. Jones’s highly-publicized plan to burn a Quran.<br /><br />But the <em>New York Times </em>story linked by Norma at the top of the thread was about the Taliban’s assassination of an Afghan regional government official.<br /><br />The pattern is predictable and familiar:   An instance of (or an announced intention for) noisy, unpleasant expression of free speech rights draws a series of finger-wagging criticisms from high-profile people, such as General Petraeus.  I wonder if Madame Secretary Clinton has weighed in yet?    Yes she has. She called the planned burning “disgraceful.”  The criticism rarely strays from a standard template:  “Of course he / she / they have the free speech / free expression right to say X / to do Y, but he / she / they shouldn’t say X / do Y, because it is insensitive / disrespectful / inflammatory.”  <br /><br />This just in:  I see that <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/09/09/us/politics/AP-US-Quran-Burning-Obama.html?hp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"><span style="color: #0000FF">Pres. Obama has weighed in </span></a>this morning on television:<br /><blockquote class="uncited"><div>The president called it a ''stunt.'' <br /><br />''If he's listening, I hope he understands that what he's proposing to do is completely contrary to our values as Americans,'' Obama said. ''That this country has been built on the notion of freedom and religious tolerance.'' <br /><br />''And as a very practical matter, I just want him to understand that this stunt that he is talking about pulling could greatly endanger our young men and women who are in uniform,'' the president added. <br /><br />Said Obama: ''Look, this is a recruitment bonanza for Al Qaida. You could have serious violence in places like Pakistan and Afghanistan.'' The president also said Jones' plan, if carried out, could serve as an incentive for terrorist-minded individuals ''to blow themselves up'' to kill others. </div></blockquote><br /><br />I think it is interesting that as this pattern plays itself out again, the criticisms of Jones and his planned Quran-burning may have the paradoxical effect of reinforcing the “Islamophobic” stereotype of Muslims (especially Muslims living outside the U.S.) as possessing hair-trigger tempers that force them to fly into violent, vengeful rage at the slightest sign of disrespect or ridicule toward Islam or the Prophet or their Special Book. Oh no, a Quran should not be burned or flushed, or a cartoon should not be published, because those Muslims just can't help themselves. There will be riots and murders and suicide bombings, etc.<br /><br />Would I prefer that Rev. Jones <em><strong>not</strong></em> burn a Quran on Saturday, or would I prefer that Rev. Jones burn copies of <em>The Purpose-Driven Life </em>and <em>The Secret </em>and The Bible <em><strong>along with </strong></em>the Quran?  Yes, yes, certainly.  I would be pleased if the City of Gainesville can find a way to prevent the burning through enforcement of local air quality and fire safety ordinances. But here in Amurrica we don’t have the luxury of withholding First Amendment rights from knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing, xenophobic, religiously illiterate, bigoted crackers.<br /><br />Will the publicity about Rev. Jones's plans cause the rest of the world to regard Americans as backward, retrograde, etc., as Norma points out?  Yes, of course, but that opinion is already quite prevalent.  I haven't tried to track whether there has really been relative silence or reticence by U.S. officials (apart from Gen. Petraeus and Secretary Clinton and just a few minutes ago, the President).  There has been plenty of commentary from foreign officials, from the Vatican to the President of Lebanon. <br /><br />At a September 8 award ceremony in Germany that apparently honored Kurt Westergaard, the Danish cartoonist who drew at least one disrespectful cartoon of Mohammad and who continues to receive death threats, <a href="http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5986351,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"><span style="color: #0000FF">German Prime Minister Angela Merkel showed up, had her picture taken with Westergaard, and praised and defended him in a keynote speech</span></a>. But at the same event, Ms. Merkel took the opportunity to criticize the planned burning of a Quran by the Florida church folks as “is plainly disrespectful - even abhorrent. It's simply wrong.”<br /><br />Regarding Westergaard and his inflammatory cartoons, Ms. Merkel did some deft fence-straddling and maneuvering: <br /><br /><blockquote class="uncited"><div>It is about whether or not he can publish his cartoons, yes or no. . . . Whether they are necessary or helpful or tasteful or not doesn't matter. Is he allowed to do it? Yes, he is. . . . Europe is a place where a cartoonist can draw cartoons. That is not to contradict that Europe is also a place of freedom of belief and religion. The respect for belief and religion is a highly valued good.</div></blockquote><br /><br />Finally, I thought that <a href="http://www.slate.com/id/2266154/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"><span style="color: #0000FF">this September 6 column by Christopher Hitchens</span></a> in <em>Slate</em>, about the practical limitations that have long been imposed on “free exercise of religion,” strikes a pretty good balance. The subtitle of the column is “The taming and domestication of religious faith is one of the unceasing chores of civilization.”</div></blockquote><br /><br /><br /> First ...so sorry about the &quot;missing link..&quot;  <br />&quot;Check before &quot;submit&quot; SHOULD  be my commandment... but, no.<br />A few things...<br />1) I don't think that Reverend's plan to burn the Koran publicly can properly be called a stunt...or that it matters WHAT his motive is.<br />Perhaps telling the world he planned to do it was designed to lift him from obscurity and bring him notoriety and fortune... here you, I, the President of the U.S AND Ms Merkel,  are on distinct parts of the planet, talking about (and worrying about) a man with nothing much in the way of brains or talent to commend him.<br /> And there are, no doubt,  in his neighborhood,   people who will rush to join a famous and insolent congregation, but it is more than probable that   the act itself will have consequences far beyond a mere stunt..<br />The desire for the proverbial 15 minutes of fame, is now, courtesy our completely irresponsible media, pandemic. <br />Everyone has it and bizarre behaviors abound... some more significant than others, of course.<br />Which leads to, <br />2) the equating of the act of the Danish cartoonist, with the idea of burning the source of Islam itself... their Koran.<br />I'm not sure that even such an august personage as the representative of the German government should be allowed to make such an analogy without being challenged on her understanding of the problem: <br />The Danish cartoonist  may have been flippant, irreverent... and he was dealing with people who clearly do not have a Western sense of humor, if any at all...<br />A flap, and after the brouhaha, even the Islamic media dropped the subject as unworthy of a holy war.<br />But still...my own analogy would be mild,  and would suggest that making fun of Jesus can hardly be equated with smashing all the statuary and declaring it garbage.   <br />3) the great  quote from Hitchens &quot;“The taming and domestication of religious faith is one of the unceasing chores of civilization.&quot;  .... god, he DOES have a way with words... and I rolled these latest around on my tongue and they tasted good...AND true.<br />And true, which is even more impressive.<br />BUT, the real problem is no longer to agree that religion takes  up too much of our time, and the best of our efforts in favor of some very dicey and dangerous stuff.<br />The problem is what to do about it: HOW do we tame and domesticate religious faith?<br />How to  temper and curtail  religion, especially in times that are otherwise uncertain, edgy, stressful,   without creating an even worse ambience in which our beset species will have to thrash around? .<br />How to get rid of religion and its discontents and discontented and still lay claim to belief in &quot;to each his own.?&quot;<br />Because increasingly, in the here and now  ...&quot;to each his own&quot; ..does conjur up burning books including bibles, and in fact the next step (in the words of Heine, as quoted here by Pyro)  which is (literally) throwing human bodies on the flaming pyres. <br /><br />NMB]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (nmblum)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=83&amp;t=13636</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:12:22 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: On language: the &quot;Dove&quot; contingent speaks out..... ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=13636&amp;p=211787#p211787</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote class="uncited"><div>Would I prefer that Rev. Jones not burn a Quran on Saturday, or would I prefer that Rev. Jones burn copies of The Purpose-Driven Life and The Secret and The Bible along with the Quran? Yes, yes, certainly.</div></blockquote>You might be on to something.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Lausten)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=83&amp;t=13636</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:52:36 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: On language: the &quot;Dove&quot; contingent speaks out..... ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=13636&amp;p=211799#p211799</link>
            <description><![CDATA[There is no way, really, to kill a book by burning it.. . just as banning a book  is self-defeating.<br />And the idea of destroying a work revered by a billion and a half people around the world, by starting a bon fire in Florida, in the back yard of a splinter, marginal Christian church and hoping it will spread around the world... well, even the looniest,most persistent fundamentalist  probably doesn't really believe it will happen.<br />However, our particular loony  doesn't really HAVE to burn a Koran.. much less a truckload of them.<br />The damage is done... not only to the equanimity of a world waiting for the next religious shoe to drop,  but to the image of America as a sane, temperate country where despite rumors to the contrary, secular reason did  once prevail..<br />:;Sigh:: Just another example of the damage done by  the very mention of religion in any context <br />The Koran will be around forever.... as a holy book or an artifact of history, just as will the Hebrew bible and the Gospel.<br />And it is possible that this latest incident will add to its luster... and to the coffers of its various publishers.<br />(More people bought and perhaps even read &quot;Lady Chatterley's Lover&quot; after the US banned its entry into the country.Imported copies appeared as if by MAGIC... Similarly with James Joyce, &quot;Ulysses...&quot; which for years before a famous ruling against its import into the US was on everyone's list of &quot;what would you like me to bring  back for you from Europe.&quot;)<br />An interesting and instructive (at least to me) example of the failure of the tyrannical when it comes to destroying the contents of books:<br />When Stalin banished the great poet Osip Mandlestam to Siberia (where he subsequently died) and forbade the further publications of his poetry and the destruction of the extant copies, Mandlestam's wife, Nadezhda committed almost all of them to her prodigious memory.. and today more than sixty  years after those terrible days, young people all over Russia read and recite his clear and beautiful words..<br />And this, about a week after the death of Francisco Franco, the Spanish dictator who forbid the publication or dissemination of radical authors, or in fact anyone who had supported the Spanish Republic, and silence had reigned in Spain for almost 40 years,,, a walk through a Madrid marketplace revealed the same sectarian publications and arguments, especially by young people, clearly well read, who were not even born in 1936, before  the Civil War...<br />All the reviled words live and kicking... <br />So why bother, especially as when as symbolism, as &quot;an act on god's behalf&quot; it is generally repudiated?<br /> <br />NMB]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (nmblum)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=83&amp;t=13636</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 19:06:31 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: On language: the &quot;Dove&quot; contingent speaks out..... ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=13636&amp;p=211876#p211876</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Why bother?  Well, some people bother to burn books, or to noisily threaten to burn books, in order to get attention.<br /><br />Terry Jones showed himself to be another &quot;liar for Jesus&quot; when he first announced on Sept. 9th that he was cancelling the Quran-burning because of a non-existent agreement with Imam Rauf (of the proposed Muslim Community Center at Park 51 in lower Manhattan). Then, 2 or 3 hours after announcing this cancellation, Jones changes his angle and direction of spin and says that he is just suspending the plan to burn the Quran. <br /><br />Jones's press conferences during the past week have had many, many more attendees than his church services. He's a grandstanding piss-artist.<br /><br />This is from <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/09/setting_the_koran_on_fire_vs_s.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"><span style="color: #0000FF">P. Z. Myers's September 9 take on the whole affair</span></a>, posted before Jones announced the cancellation: <br /><br /><blockquote class="uncited"><div>The lesson of that incident [Myers throwing a Communion Host, pierced with a rusty nail, into the trash along with torn pages from a copy of a secular book] wasn't that you can find some jerk somewhere who will disrespect what some group finds holy — that was trivial and uninteresting, and I actually had to ignore many of the elaborate suggestions for cracker disposal sent my way to emphasize the absolute triviality of tossing a cracker/piece of Jesus in the trash. No, the real lesson was that mobs of people will react with irrational freakish hysteria to the idea that other people don't believe as they do. <br /><br />The problem isn't the desecrators. The problem is the people who have an unwarranted sense of privilege, that their beliefs will not be questioned or criticized, ever, by anyone. What I was saying was that it was crazy to believe a cracker turns into Jesus, and what all the outraged Catholics were doing is confirming to an awesome degree just how mad their beliefs were, with their prolonged and excessive outrage. <br /><br />So I'm looking at this recent episode with Terry Jones — a fellow I don't like at all, and I think he's a fanatical goofball — and I see that the serious problem here isn't Jones at all…it's all the lunatics who are insisting that burning the Koran is a major international catastrophe.<br /><br />It's just a frackin' book, people.</div></blockquote><br /><br />As of the time of this posting, there were 424 comments on that post by Myers. So Jones has gotten what he wanted.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Jeff D)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=83&amp;t=13636</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:26:46 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: On language: the &quot;Dove&quot; contingent speaks out..... ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=13636&amp;p=211878#p211878</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Jeff D wrote:</cite>Why bother?  Well, some people bother to burn books, or to noisily threaten to burn books, in order to get attention.<br /><br />Terry Jones showed himself to be another &quot;liar for Jesus&quot; when he first announced on Sept. 9th that he was cancelling the Quran-burning because of a non-existent agreement with Imam Rauf (of the proposed Muslim Community Center at Park 51 in lower Manhattan). Then, 2 or 3 hours after announcing this cancellation, Jones changes his angle and direction of spin and says that he is just suspending the plan to burn the Quran. <br /><br />Jones's press conferences during the past week have had many, many more attendees than his church services. He's a grandstanding piss-artist.<br /><br />This is from <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/09/setting_the_koran_on_fire_vs_s.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"><span style="color: #0000FF">P. Z. Myers's September 9 take on the whole affair</span></a>, posted before Jones announced the cancellation: <br /><br /><blockquote class="uncited"><div>The lesson of that incident [Myers throwing a Communion Host, pierced with a rusty nail, into the trash along with torn pages from a copy of a secular book] wasn't that you can find some jerk somewhere who will disrespect what some group finds holy — that was trivial and uninteresting, and I actually had to ignore many of the elaborate suggestions for cracker disposal sent my way to emphasize the absolute triviality of tossing a cracker/piece of Jesus in the trash. No, the real lesson was that mobs of people will react with irrational freakish hysteria to the idea that other people don't believe as they do. <br /><br />The problem isn't the desecrators. The problem is the people who have an unwarranted sense of privilege, that their beliefs will not be questioned or criticized, ever, by anyone. What I was saying was that it was crazy to believe a cracker turns into Jesus, and what all the outraged Catholics were doing is confirming to an awesome degree just how mad their beliefs were, with their prolonged and excessive outrage. <br /><br />So I'm looking at this recent episode with Terry Jones — a fellow I don't like at all, and I think he's a fanatical goofball — and I see that the serious problem here isn't Jones at all…it's all the lunatics who are insisting that burning the Koran is a major international catastrophe.<br /><br />It's just a frackin' book, people.</div></blockquote><br /><br />As of the time of this posting, there were 424 comments on that post by Myers. So Jones has gotten what he wanted.</div></blockquote><br /><br />The &quot;why bother?&quot; (in re actually burning books) was rhetorical and addressed to the idea that it is impossible to kill ideas....and book burning calls attention to them, in ways that required reading don't always do...<br />I have spent the last day or so eating my own misplaced animus and anxieties: first I was shocked,dismayed at how little response from  responsible authority in high places this Terry Jones was getting. <br />And now I am shocked how easily he has turned his fifteen minutes of ill-gotten fame into a heady hour and a half...... called by the Secretary of Defense, for Christ's sake!!<br />Terry Jones of God-Knows-Where, Florida, Pastor to a flock that would fit into dog house, is now more famous than the Pope...<br /><br />Our media may not know how to improve literacy or the mind, but they certainly excel at turning an nonentity into the equivalent of  Charlemagne crossed with  Rudolphe Hess..... or George Cloony.<br />Cameras whirr.. and reporters hang on his every word. <br /><br />However, it is interesting to note,  unless I missed it, that while pastors and priests from anonymous pulpits had said their piece, the mucky-mucks of &quot;Faith in America...&quot; the Billy Graham level of clergy are remarkably silent.<br />Not that it matters..... the damage is done, we have only to sit back and relax to see what new religious lunacy will bring forth now that <br />we have been  blackmailed into doing cartwheels and tap dances  to assuage hurt Muslim feelings, especially abroad...and bending over backwards to assure Islam that we recognize ... yes, yes, yes.....the  intrinsic beauty and value of yet another murderous faith.<br />What a disgusting circus....<br />Of course the whole deadly, foolish display corroborates the atheist sensibility : what possible value could there be to anything based on the flimsy... ridiculous really... premise that there is a sky pilot overseeing the proceedings and manipulating the participants?<br />For no good reason.<br />Religion is,has always been...there is no other way to say it.. a curse upon mankind.<br />But now it has turned into Grand Guignol comedy, completely without dignity, although even more dangerous for being ridiculous.<br /><br />NMB<br /> <br />.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (nmblum)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=83&amp;t=13636</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 09:43:51 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: It would be interesting to hear your ideas..... ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=13639&amp;p=211756#p211756</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Hmm and I thought mulligans had to do something with golf which has nothing to do with getting high.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (izittrue)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=83&amp;t=13639</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 15:31:53 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: It would be interesting to hear your ideas..... ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=13639&amp;p=211780#p211780</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Squishua wrote:</cite>Leave it to a Hawaiian to teach a Californian about these things. <img src="http://www.skepticforum.com/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif" alt=";-)" title="Wink" /></div></blockquote><br />Thirty years in California made me a Californian, but six years in Hawaii does not make me a Hawaiian. I'm merely a Hauli, nothing more than a non-native Caucasian. <br /><br />The natives are still restless ever since we stole their land and made them pick pineapples. Now they want to be like the American Indians and be independent when they gamble. It's called the Akaka bill after the senator and it has Obama's support.<br />It actually has a chance of passing since Oprah owns a large stretch on the big island.<br /><br />What's the world coming to? Why don't they like Caucasian conquerers any more?<br /><br />If you're a Caucasian Californian you know that it sucks to be a minority.<br />Makes me not want to vote.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (vanderpoel)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=83&amp;t=13639</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:23:54 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: It would be interesting to hear your ideas..... ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=13639&amp;p=211827#p211827</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>vanderpoel wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>Squishua wrote:</cite>Leave it to a Hawaiian to teach a Californian about these things. <img src="http://www.skepticforum.com/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif" alt=";-)" title="Wink" /></div></blockquote><br />Thirty years in California made me a Californian, but six years in Hawaii does not make me a Hawaiian. I'm merely a Hauli, nothing more than a non-native Caucasian. <br /><br />The natives are still restless ever since we stole their land and made them pick pineapples. Now they want to be like the American Indians and be independent when they gamble. It's called the Akaka bill after the senator and it has Obama's support.<br />It actually has a chance of passing since Oprah owns a large stretch on the big island.<br /><br />What's the world coming to? Why don't they like Caucasian conquerers any more?<br /><br />If you're a Caucasian Californian you know that it sucks to be a minority.<br />Makes me not want to vote.</div></blockquote><br />C'mon, c'mon....C 'mon...... as a newly transplanted Caucasian (more or less)  to California, specifically Los Angeles, more specifically abutting Hollywood..the only minority I represent is the non-driver, the non-owner of an automobile.<br />And maybe the sub-minority of Caucasian women who have not been remodeled into an earlier version. <br />This is a motley crew of a State population and the truth, for me at least,  is that California is  better for it... <br />The perpetual sunshine and warmth is compatible with the Latin influence, compared say with the Anglo-Saxon chilliness of the great Eastern cities.<br />People here are,  despite the prevalent and obvious stresses of the present economy and what seem to be encouraged ethnic animoisites,  friendly and polite......and exude what  could be an unreasonable optimism... <br />OR maybe its a version of apathy..<br />I'm too new to know.<br />Other than that, I can report that while the population  gap is probably changing, despite so many Latinos REFUSING of late to cross the border FROM  Mexico, Caucasians still reign numerically, and more important still have all the moolah.<br />By far.<br />And own all the significant land.<br />By farther.<br />And the businesses.<br />By any standard.<br />Just looking at the slates of candidates for State offices tells  you what you need to know about a  status quo that shows little chance of changing anytime soon. <br />  I have to assume that if either Beth Whitman,  Jerry Brown, Carly Fiorina and Barbara Boxer  are running for office, their adventures are not being paid for by the contributions of dishwashers and gardeners.<br />Personally I  love all the negative remarks about immigration.. against the &quot;thems&quot; that are invading the country and taking all our jobs away from the (mythical) Americans who can't wait to wash the dishes, take out the garbage and swab the floors..... and take care of our children.. all for sub-legal wages. <br />Too bad all those little brown people can't afford to lose the day's pay... or I would encourage a day of all illegals boycotting work, just to see what a country looks like when the restaurants can't open for want of staff, and the banks have filthy floors.<br /> Washington power lunches would come to a total halt... and people would have to stay home with their kids, driving  them around in unwashed cars..... looking at unmown lawns...<br />God KNOWS  I don't wanna clean my own pool and so far none of those so much more Caucasians has come around looking for the (well, okay, mythical) job.<br />How about you?<br /><br />NMB]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (nmblum)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 23:07:01 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: It would be interesting to hear your ideas..... ...</title>
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            <description><![CDATA[I think I mentioned this, at one point.<br /><br /> I was having this very conversation with some local folks. Potato farms are the big money around here. I said something to the effect of &quot; I'm not going to go out and pick potatoes, I don't see the problem with employing those that are willing.. &quot; and was told &quot; We go out to pick potatoes, and they ( the ubiquitous, I assume) want to pay us the same as Mexicans&quot;. Well, I said to these ostensibly free market types, &quot; Well, if the labor costs go up for crop production, the price in the super market will certainly reflect that markup, therefore your higher wages would not stretch as far as it might seem&quot;. <br /><br />You know what? I just realized those folks seem to avoid me. Hmm.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (fromthehills)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 23:48:02 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: It would be interesting to hear your ideas..... ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=13639&amp;p=211829#p211829</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Norma, I would be glad to drool in your pool, but not for immigrant wages.<br />A director's fee is required so I can afford to bring in my own illegals without paying for workman's comp. <br /><br />Makes you wonder how they got to be &quot;undocumented aliens&quot;.<br />Maybe they were documented before they got undocumented? It ought to be simple to check if they're baptized and redocument them so they can start tithing our Catholic churches. Unless the pope doesn't care where the ransom comes from.<br /><br />Legalizing undocumented aliens is good for the state, the church, the pool and the party.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (vanderpoel)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 23:56:11 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: It would be interesting to hear your ideas..... ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=13639&amp;p=211830#p211830</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>fromthehills wrote:</cite>I think I mentioned this, at one point.<br /><br /> I was having this very conversation with some local folks. Potato farms are the big money around here. I said something to the effect of &quot; I'm not going to go out and pick potatoes, I don't see the problem with employing those that are willing.. &quot; and was told &quot; We go out to pick potatoes, and they ( the ubiquitous, I assume) want to pay us the same as Mexicans&quot;. Well, I said to these ostensibly free market types, &quot; Well, if the labor costs go up for crop production, the price in the super market will certainly reflect that markup, therefore your higher wages would not stretch as far as it might seem&quot;. <br /><br />You know what? I just realized those folks seem to avoid me. Hmm.</div></blockquote><br />You are clearly a socialist, or some other kind of lefty.... and I wouldn't stand near you either. <br />One never knows what one will catch from you fellers... crabs are lousy but rational explanations can be fatal. <br /> Sometimes explaining  the free market to free marketeers is a full time, below market wage, job.<br />And thankless to boot, because a half hour after the lesson they are hungry again.... and consequently cranky, short -tempered, dyspeptic  and looking around for someone to blame that's below them (rather than the sharks circling   above) on the food chain. <br /><br />NMB]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (nmblum)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 00:07:19 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: It would be interesting to hear your ideas..... ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=13639&amp;p=211832#p211832</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>fromthehills wrote:</cite>I think I mentioned this, at one point.<br /><br /> I was having this very conversation with some local folks. Potato farms are the big money around here. I said something to the effect of &quot; I'm not going to go out and pick potatoes, I don't see the problem with employing those that are willing.. &quot; and was told &quot; We go out to pick potatoes, and they ( the ubiquitous, I assume) want to pay us the same as Mexicans&quot;. Well, I said to these ostensibly free market types, &quot; Well, if the labor costs go up for crop production, the price in the super market will certainly reflect that markup, therefore your higher wages would not stretch as far as it might seem&quot;. <br /><br />You know what? I just realized those folks seem to avoid me. Hmm.</div></blockquote><br />I'm all for free market types that bring down the cost of crops.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (vanderpoel)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 00:09:58 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: It would be interesting to hear your ideas..... ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=13639&amp;p=211833#p211833</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>vanderpoel wrote:</cite>Norma, I would be glad to drool in your pool, but not for immigrant wages.<br />A director's fee is required so I can afford to bring in my own illegals without paying for workman's comp. <br /><br />Makes you wonder how they got to be &quot;undocumented aliens&quot;.<br />Maybe they were documented before they got undocumented? It ought to be simple to check if they're baptized and redocument them so they can start tithing our Catholic churches. Unless the pope doesn't care where the ransom comes from.<br /><br />Legalizing undocumented aliens is good for the state, the church, the pool and the party.</div></blockquote><br /><br />Not to mention the pool party.<br />But sorry. Much as there is no one whose drool in my pool   would be welcome  more than yours,   I only pay &quot;immigrant&quot; wages.<br />Why else would i be wasting my Caucasian (more or less) time  proselytizing against instituting a police state  in order to get them out of here?<br />Self-interest, first and last, is  why, but patriotism is a close concern: <br />If I can get my pool cleaned for less than minimum wage, I can do my bit for the economy by buying a few more pairs of shoes for my (still only )pair of feet. <br />What is more free market than that?<br /><br /><br />NMB]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (nmblum)</author>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 00:21:00 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: It would be interesting to hear your ideas..... ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=13639&amp;p=211835#p211835</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Sound reasoning and the exploration of new methods for equal opportunity servitude have long benefitted patriots like yourself. This entrepreneurial spirit is encoded in all Caucasians, even those new to California.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (vanderpoel)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 00:59:28 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: It would be interesting to hear your ideas..... ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=13639&amp;p=211849#p211849</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>vanderpoel wrote:</cite>Sound reasoning and the exploration of new methods for equal opportunity servitude have long benefitted patriots like yourself. This entrepreneurial spirit is encoded in all Caucasians, even those new to California.</div></blockquote><br />&quot;Equal opportunity servitude!!&quot;<br />If I ever start a  conglomerate  of sweatshops, or a farm requiring stoop labor, that will be my company motto... what a ring it has to it, and it certainly fits the   times.<br />Like a glove.<br />On a more serious note... do  you think that Caucasians are more likely to be entrepreneurs?<br />I am of two minds about the genetic component in business acumen, having been born without it.. or more exactly born to parents without it, and  without a desire to explore it myself. <br />And I have always thought of the MBA as the antithesis of education and only fit for people who had exploitation, ambition, and selfishness in their make-up, awarded by Universities that had those qualities as well.<br />But I could be ....well, not WRONG, exactly but rather missing something.<br />An interesting book &quot;THe Sugar Coated Fortress,&quot; by Francine du Plessis Grey, a history and exploration of Hawaiian society and economic structure, makes much of the Chinese bent for  thrift, money management,   and banking.. and Japanese entrepreneurship, and claims that both ethnic groups contributed, perhaps more than any other to the financial success of the Islands...<br /><br />NMB]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (nmblum)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 02:01:36 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: It would be interesting to hear your ideas..... ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=13639&amp;p=211853#p211853</link>
            <description><![CDATA[I would like to say, even though I have taken to imbibing far too much to address anything specific, this evening, I appreciate this thread for it's intelligent opening and responses. I am intending to address more points, once time and sobriety allows.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (fromthehills)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 04:18:32 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: It would be interesting to hear your ideas..... ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=13639&amp;p=211859#p211859</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Entire societies wrap their feet but we can't conclude that their behavior is any more genetic than if they wrap their head. <br /><br />Our jails are full of entrepreneurs who lack the knack of risk management but it's not because of ethnicity but education and environment. Some environments are more conducive to taking risks than others but risk management is a learned behavior.<br /><br />Of course, by now we should be well aware that risk management is hardly the art of minimizing risk to your shareholders. <br /><br />It's the art of maximizing riches for yourself.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (vanderpoel)</author>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 05:33:16 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: It would be interesting to hear your ideas..... :: Reply by 4sure</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=13639&amp;p=211867#p211867</link>
            <description><![CDATA[I've spent most of my adult life deprogramming all of the prejudice and racism that was instilled in me as a child. It exists in all realms and it will never be eradicated. I see it in the ignorant as well as I do in the most educated....Its here to stay for the fact that people like to belong and be part of a group;  rather it be ethnicity, religious belief, political belief or whatever may be the case.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (4sure)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 06:45:14 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>The Letting Go of God Forum :: Re: It would be interesting to hear your ideas..... ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&amp;t=13639&amp;p=211880#p211880</link>
            <description><![CDATA[We rarely get credit in life for how far we've risen above bad circumstances of our upbringings.  We really do pay for the sins of our fathers, and conversely, a privileged background gives us an almost infallible leg up on life.<br /><br />I haven't traveled the world much, but I have some idea the cultural morass from which some immigrants to the developed countries emerge.  It's really a golden opportunity to cheat their fates, and achieve something far beyond the dismal courses that their lives were programmed to take.<br /><br />I try not to judge people on only where they are in life, but also by how far they've come.  That seems to me to be the real measure of a life, whether it matters to the greater scheme of things or not.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (landrew)</author>
            <category>The Letting Go of God Forum</category>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:50:35 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Links :: Re: Evolutionary advantages from believing in . . . :: Reply by landrew</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&amp;t=13607&amp;p=211773#p211773</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Atheists exist.  Here in this forum at a higher frequency than in the general population.  Those who will make the claim &quot;god does not exist,&quot; despite the impossibility of proving a negative outside a closed system, despite not knowing whether they would pray if they found themselves in a foxhole about to be overrun, and despite any possible means to know such an answer.<br /><br />Yes, atheists do exist.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (landrew)</author>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:59:29 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Links :: Re: Evolutionary advantages from believing in . . . :: Reply by Jeff D</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&amp;t=13607&amp;p=211783#p211783</link>
            <description><![CDATA[There are atheists who phrase the statement exactly as you write it:  &quot;god does not exist.&quot;  But if you press those atheists, some (like Victor Stenger) will be quite comfortable in making the statement categorically:  gods, as invisible supernatural agents who are alleged to intervene in this universe, create solar systems, work miracles, give commands, punish sinners and reward the virtuous, do not exist, period.  On this forum, Herk seems to be in this category or to have one foot in. <br /><br />Other atheists who say &quot;god(s) do(es) not exist&quot; are in the same group as Richard Dawkins; their expressed level of confidence in that claim is 6 out of 7 or even higher, but they don't claim absolute certainty.<br /><br />I think a larger subset of atheists consist of those people who have refused to assent to or accept the proposition that &quot;gods&quot; (as usually conceived and described) exist as anything other than human inventions, imaginary abstractions. These atheists lack belief, or withhold their assent, on a provisional basis, because of a lack of evidence or logic. They could be convinced to change their minds if sufficient competent evidence were produced, but they don't hold their breath expecting such evidence to be produced.<br /><br />The &quot;impossibility of proving a negative outside a closed system&quot; has no practical relevance to the majority of atheists who lack a belief in gods because of the absence of credible evidence, and who don't claim certainty.  Their attitude, which would probably be regarded as quite sensible and logical in any other realm of human culture besides religion, is that an extraordinary claim that is not supported by credible evidence can and should be rejected, no matter how familar and popular the claim is, and regardless of the length of the historical pedigree for the claim.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Jeff D)</author>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:31:18 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Links :: Re: Evolutionary advantages from believing in . . . :: Reply by ruben lopez</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&amp;t=13607&amp;p=211784#p211784</link>
            <description><![CDATA[I have had guns pulled on me. Been in car wrecks. Stabbed. Not one of those times did I ever pray or even think of gods, before, during or after. But the next time I am in a life-or-death situation, I will be sure to pray to Bigfoot to get me out of it.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (ruben lopez)</author>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:33:33 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Links :: Re: Evolutionary advantages from believing in . . . :: Reply by landrew</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&amp;t=13607&amp;p=211788#p211788</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>ruben lopez wrote:</cite>I have had guns pulled on me. Been in car wrecks. Stabbed. Not one of those times did I ever pray or even think of gods, before, during or after. But the next time I am in a life-or-death situation, I will be sure to pray to Bigfoot to get me out of it.</div></blockquote><br />Maybe that's why you got into those situations, not praying enough.  <br /><br />Hey, it's just another untested hypothesis.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (landrew)</author>
            <category>Links</category>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:57:54 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Links :: Re: Evolutionary advantages from believing in . . . :: Reply by Martin Brock</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&amp;t=13607&amp;p=211798#p211798</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Jeff D wrote:</cite>Bering's sound bite (&quot;I don't believe in atheists, [either]&quot;) was just that, an offhand comment, a succinct way of saying that he thinks all self-described atheists are easily and naturally capable of having the same experiences (mental / emotional / neurological) that religious or superstitious &quot;believers&quot; accept as signs or evidence of gods, or spirits, or communciations with the dead, or an afterlife.</div></blockquote><br />He suggests more than &quot;capable of&quot;. He suggests that &quot;supernatural&quot; beliefs, like the omnipresent authority, influence self-described atheists in spite of themselves. &quot;Atheists don't exist&quot; is Bering's way of saying that none of us are free of these influences. No person by any description truly acts independently of these influences.<br /><br /><blockquote class="uncited"><div>The difference is that the atheist has taken an intellectual stance in which he or she says that the experience is just an experience, not to be believed as evidence that the things felt (the spirit of a dead mother, a god) are real or exist in fact as anything other than imaginary constructs.</div></blockquote><br />The intellectual stance is inconsequential. It's just another (delusional) belief. What matters is that the experience influences the atheist's behavior. The spirit of a dead mother and the omnipresent authority are only two examples of these &quot;supernatural&quot; beliefs. We could list hundreds more, some of which you might not associate with conventional &quot;religion&quot;.<br /><br />For example, a person might believe in some inevitable progress toward some social reform, in the way that Marxists expected &quot;socialism&quot; and then &quot;communism&quot; to be inevitable products of historical forces. Insofar as nature doesn't cooperate by fulfilling this vision of the future, the expectation is arguably &quot;supernatural&quot;, but every believer in this system could be a nominal &quot;atheist&quot;, and Marxism was an atheistic movement in fact. Other atheists similarly expect Objectivism to be increasingly influential. Many atheists seem to believe that atheism itself is the product of some inevitable progression, and many people believe that the 9/11 hijackers expected 72 virgins as sexual playthings in an afterlife and acted primarily for this reason, even though no historical evidence supports this theory and voluminous evidence contradicts it.<br /><br /><blockquote class="uncited"><div>In the same part of that NPR story, Bering said that hearing the moving wind chimes gave him the unmistakeable feeling that it was possible to communicate with his recently-deceased mother.  He acknowledged the genuineness and naturalness of the experience but discounted it as not evidence of real communication, or a real possibility of communciation, with his dead mother because (my conclusion) Bering is essentially calling himself a methodological naturalist.</div></blockquote><br />But the experience and similar experiences influence his behavior. That's his point. &quot;Bering the naturalist&quot; doesn't really exist. It's a figment of Bering's imagination, and Bering himself realizes this fact.<br /><br /><blockquote class="uncited"><div>I don't think that atheists are a myth, or an unrealizable ideal.  I define &quot;atheism&quot; and &quot;atheist&quot; narrowly enough that I feel I can get away with this.</div></blockquote><br />I agree that Bering defines &quot;atheist&quot; too broadly; however, in my narrower usage, &quot;atheist&quot; doesn't describe anything very meaningful. As a practical matter, an atheist rejects traditional theology. Typically, his atheism focuses on traditions most familiar to him, so an American atheist tends to be rejecting an indoctrination into Christianity. That a person rejects conventional Christianity doesn't tell me much about him. He can still believe fervently in Bigfoot for example, because Bigfoot is not a &quot;deity&quot;.<br /><br /><blockquote class="uncited"><div>To me, an atheist is a person who, for whatever reason, lacks a belief in deities or similar supernatural agents, with no other qualifications, opinions, attitudes, or levels of confidence or certitude required for &quot;membership&quot; in the category.</div></blockquote><br />If a &quot;supernatural agent&quot; is anything that violates laws of nature, then no one knows the extent of this category, because no one knows the laws of nature. We have standard models of nature, and they aren't a remotely complete description of nature.<br /><br /><blockquote class="uncited"><div>There is a respectable position (Sam Harris contends this, and Dan Dennett sometimes comes close) that we shouldn't need a separate label for &quot;atheists,&quot; just as most people don't feel a strong need for separate labels for folks who don't grant any validity to numerology, or astrology, or Hollow Earth theory, or crystal therapy.</div></blockquote><br />But an atheist can believe in the validity of numerology or a Hollow Earth. We need <em>many</em> separate labels for atheists, just as we have many separate labels for theists.<br /><br /><blockquote class="uncited"><div>But I suspect that atheists of this sort (believing in ghosts, immortal souls, eternal life, etc. or psychokinesis) are a minority of the population that is traditionally labeled as &quot;atheists.&quot;</div></blockquote><br />I suppose you're right, but many more atheists believe things that aren't strictly &quot;natural&quot; or &quot;rational&quot; or &quot;true&quot;, like the Marxist theory of history or that resistance to U.S. (or U.S.S.R.) occupation of territories with Muslim populations is simply a product of the Islamic faith.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Martin Brock)</author>
            <category>Links</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=87&amp;t=13607</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:57:25 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Links :: Re: Evolutionary advantages from believing in . . . :: Reply by Martin Brock</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&amp;t=13607&amp;p=211801#p211801</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Bering's experiment with children suggests that without indoctrination in the omnipresent authority belief, people break the rules more. If we simply omit this indoctrination, can we expect more unruly people? That people with this indoctrination <em>say</em> that they cease believing it while remaining ruly is not evidence to the contrary. People can believe things that aren't true. A person can believe that he doesn't believe a myth, while the myth continues to influence him.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Martin Brock)</author>
            <category>Links</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=87&amp;t=13607</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 19:21:57 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Links :: Re: Evolutionary advantages from believing in . . . :: Reply by ruben lopez</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&amp;t=13607&amp;p=211814#p211814</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>landrew wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>ruben lopez wrote:</cite>I have had guns pulled on me. Been in car wrecks. Stabbed. Not one of those times did I ever pray or even think of gods, before, during or after. But the next time I am in a life-or-death situation, I will be sure to pray to Bigfoot to get me out of it.</div></blockquote><br />Maybe that's why you got into those situations, not praying enough.  <br /><br />Hey, it's just another untested hypothesis.</div></blockquote><br /><br />You're right. I don't pray to Bigfoot enough.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (ruben lopez)</author>
            <category>Links</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=87&amp;t=13607</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 21:05:19 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Links :: Re: Evolutionary advantages from believing in . . . :: Reply by Gord</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&amp;t=13607&amp;p=211840#p211840</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>ruben lopez wrote:</cite>I have had guns pulled on me. Been in car wrecks. Stabbed. Not one of those times did I ever pray or even think of gods, before, during or after. But the next time I am in a life-or-death situation, I will be sure to pray to Bigfoot to get me out of it.</div></blockquote><br />I always pray (usually to &quot;Mommy&quot;) when those things happen.  Then I move on to other silly things, like tap-dancing or shitting myself.  Unless I have some direct and obvious way to influence the situation physically, I will even try using my inherent telekinetic powers.<br /><br />The only one of those things that has ever saved me was the self-shitting.  Bigfoot doesn't like shooting people after they've done that.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Gord)</author>
            <category>Links</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=87&amp;t=13607</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 01:28:16 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Links :: Re: Evolutionary advantages from believing in . . . :: Reply by landrew</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&amp;t=13607&amp;p=211841#p211841</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Gord wrote:</cite>The only one of those things that has ever saved me was the self-shitting.  Bigfoot doesn't like shooting people after they've done that.</div></blockquote><br />How does that work again?]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (landrew)</author>
            <category>Links</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=87&amp;t=13607</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 01:38:28 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Links :: Re: Evolutionary advantages from believing in . . . :: Reply by Gord</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&amp;t=13607&amp;p=211846#p211846</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>landrew wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>Gord wrote:</cite>The only one of those things that has ever saved me was the self-shitting.  Bigfoot doesn't like shooting people after they've done that.</div></blockquote><br />How does that work again?</div></blockquote><br />First you {!#%@} yourself.  Then Bigfoot doesn't shoot you.<br /><br />It's repeatable, which makes it falsifiable, which makes it scientific! <img src="http://www.skepticforum.com/images/smilies/PDT_crazy.gif" alt=":nuts:" title="Crazy" />]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Gord)</author>
            <category>Links</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=87&amp;t=13607</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 01:52:37 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Links :: Re: Evolutionary advantages from believing in . . . :: Reply by ruben lopez</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&amp;t=13607&amp;p=211865#p211865</link>
            <description><![CDATA[I keep looking at the title of the thread. Then at who started it. I look at the title of the thread. Then back at who started it. The person who started this thread is a new guest posting in his stomping grounds. I see where myself, landrew, then Gord have taken it. I look at the title of the thread. Then back at where I have taken it. I look back at the title of the thread. Then at who started it. I look at where it could go. Then I look at the title of the thread. Then I decide not to type what I was gonna type. And leave it at that.<br />Have a nice night.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (ruben lopez)</author>
            <category>Links</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=87&amp;t=13607</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 06:27:49 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy :: Re: What would constitute definitive proof of God to you? ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&amp;t=13622&amp;p=211764#p211764</link>
            <description><![CDATA['<br /><blockquote><div><cite>vanderpoel wrote:</cite>Experience and reason is available to us only after we have grown from a simple sperm into a complex being. <br /></div></blockquote><br />What! No mention of the egg? Are you a woman hater?<br /><br />.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (numan)</author>
            <category>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=30&amp;t=13622</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:12:38 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy :: Re: What would constitute definitive proof of God to you? ...</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&amp;t=13622&amp;p=211785#p211785</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>numan wrote:</cite>'<br /><blockquote><div><cite>vanderpoel wrote:</cite>Experience and reason is available to us only after we have grown from a simple sperm into a complex being. <br /></div></blockquote><br />What! No mention of the egg? </div></blockquote><br />We are not chicken. <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Are you a woman hater?</div></blockquote><br />You obviously have never loved.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (vanderpoel)</author>
            <category>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=30&amp;t=13622</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:35:32 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy :: Re: Meaning and Intellectual Beauty :: Reply by numan</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&amp;t=13071&amp;p=211803#p211803</link>
            <description><![CDATA['<br /><blockquote><div><cite>Flash wrote:</cite>Numan wrote:<blockquote class="uncited"><div>Let us make a distinction between things that &quot;exist&quot;  and things that are &quot;real.&quot;<br /><br />Let us define &quot;existents&quot; as just those &quot;facts&quot; that are in the external world of common experience---the subject matter of science. So we will say that tables and rainbows, sights, sounds, patterns of behaviour and everything else that can be physically measured---&quot;exist.&quot;<br /><br />Let us have another class of objects which are called &quot;real.&quot; Things like scientific laws (E=mc^2, h=energy / frequency, etc.) and the theorems of mathematics are &quot;real&quot; things, or &quot;forms.&quot;</div></blockquote><br />Thanks Numan. This post is a great explanation of the Platonic theory of forms. The truth is, most philosophy teachers do a very poor job in this area. The students come with the impression that Plato was some kind of a dreaming   lunatic. <br /><br />As you acknowledge you have also improved a bit on the old man. Nothing wrong with that. It makes the Platonic theory even better. You know, &quot;real&quot; and &quot;existent&quot; are most often used as synonyms but you have every right to decouple them and impart them with two separate meanings. By doing this you also throw more light on the nature of mathematics and physics.<br /></div></blockquote><br />Thank you for your kind words.  Unfortunately, I must be so churlish as to deny the truth of your compliment utterly.  I have not explained Plato's Theory of Forms; I have, in fact, been supremely unfaithful to his thought; I have not improved on the Old Man, and I definitely have not made the Platonic Theory better.<br /><br />In my defence, I must point out that I said  this was what I was going to do:<br /><br /><blockquote class="uncited"><div>I wish to describe a half-way house for  those without training in philosophy on a journey to the understanding of the thought of Plato.  It is false to Plato in one supremely important aspect, yet can still be useful.<br /></div></blockquote><br />I have treated the Forms as if they were abstractions from experience. <strong>THIS IS NOT PLATO'S VIEW.</strong><br /><br />Many philosophers have treated the Forms as if they were abstractions from experience, <strong>AND THEY SHOULD KNOW BETTER!</strong><br /><br /><span style="color: red"><span style="font-size: 125%; line-height: normal"><strong>THE FORMS ARE <span style="text-decoration: underline">NOT</span> UNIVERSALS; THEY ARE <span style="text-decoration: underline">NOT</span> ABSTRACTIONS FROM EXPERIENCE!</strong></span></span> <br /><br />Plato says this over and over; he says it ever so clearly in the Alllegory of the Cave!<br /><br /><!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave</a><!-- m --><br /><br /><a href="http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/platoscave.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"><strong>TRANSLATION OF THE TEXT OF THE ALLEGORY</strong></a><br /><br />There is even a clay animation of the Allegory, for heaven's sake!<br /><br /><a href="http://platosallegory.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;this.target='_blank';" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"><strong>ANIMATION OF PLATO'S ALLEGORY OF THE CAVE</strong></a><br /><br />The fact that even professors of philosophy can't get this simple fact right says much about the distorted, stereotypical delusions of our time!<br /><br />For Plato, <span style="color: red"><strong>the Forms were not <span style="text-decoration: underline">less</span> concrete than the physical world of experience, BUT <span style="text-decoration: underline">MORE</span> CONCRETE!</strong></span><br /><br />This can not be stressed too much!!!<br /><br />The physical world of our experience is a <span style="color: red"><strong>dim, wavering image, a shadow</strong></span>, of the solid, enduring REAL world of the Forms!  This is very, very clear from the Allegory of the Cave!<br /><br />C. S. Lewis is a writer whom I like, but who exasperates me no end. The secret is that almost everything in his timid, theistic worldview that is good and attractive comes from Plato!<br /><br />He wrote an amusing little book called, <strong>The Great Divorce,</strong> that gives his slant on the Forms of Plato.<br /><br />Ghosts from Hell are given a holiday in which they are brought to the borderlands of Heaven, which is a kind of twilight before dawn. There, everything is much, much more solid than the phantasmal substance of the ghosts: plant stems and leaves are immovable; blades of grass are unbendable crystal needles to their feet; every drop of rain, every flying insect, is like a bullet that tears through the bodies of the ghosts; the surface of a stream is a solid, flowing, rippling floor to their feet; and when the Sun rises, its beams are solid blocks, moving at an incredible velocity, smashing and crushing the ghosts!<br /><br />.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (numan)</author>
            <category>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=30&amp;t=13071</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 19:35:40 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy :: Re: Is atheism a belief system? :: Reply by landrew</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&amp;t=13640&amp;p=211776#p211776</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Atheism can have several causes.  Unanswered prayers, rebellion against religious authority or simple scientific understanding.  Not much of a system, I can identify.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (landrew)</author>
            <category>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=30&amp;t=13640</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:11:55 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy :: Re: Is atheism a belief system? :: Reply by Matthew Ellard</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&amp;t=13640&amp;p=211831#p211831</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>landrew wrote:</cite>Atheism can have several causes.  Unanswered prayers, rebellion against religious authority or simple scientific understanding.  Not much of a system, I can identify.</div></blockquote><br /><br /><span style="color: #0000BF">I agree there are many causes for atheism, however in some cases people are atheist simply because they never got introduced to any religion...the blank canvas mode. </span>]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Matthew Ellard)</author>
            <category>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=30&amp;t=13640</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 00:07:35 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy :: Re: Is atheism a belief system? :: Reply by vanderpoel</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&amp;t=13640&amp;p=211834#p211834</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>Matthew Ellard wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>landrew wrote:</cite>Atheism can have several causes.  Unanswered prayers, rebellion against religious authority or simple scientific understanding.  Not much of a system, I can identify.</div></blockquote><br /><br /><span style="color: #0000BF">I agree there are many causes for atheism, however in some cases people are atheist simply because they never got introduced to any religion...the blank canvas mode. </span></div></blockquote><br />That describes my atheism to a teeth, the absence of indoctrination.<br />Since my parents conspired to withhold heavenly bliss during my formative years I'm still a blank canvas and not much of a system I admit.<br /><br />I've since learned from other artists that you need a foundation.<br />Just can't find it in 3D.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (vanderpoel)</author>
            <category>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=30&amp;t=13640</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 00:31:09 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy :: Re: Is atheism a belief system? :: Reply by Gord</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&amp;t=13640&amp;p=211843#p211843</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>vanderpoel wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>Matthew Ellard wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>landrew wrote:</cite>Atheism can have several causes.  Unanswered prayers, rebellion against religious authority or simple scientific understanding.  Not much of a system, I can identify.</div></blockquote><br /><br /><span style="color: #0000BF">I agree there are many causes for atheism, however in some cases people are atheist simply because they never got introduced to any religion...the blank canvas mode. </span></div></blockquote><br />That describes my atheism to a teeth, the absence of indoctrination.</div></blockquote><br />Mine is from a failure to make any sense.  I guess it was a failed indoctrination, 'cause I wasn't prevented from questioning the dumb parts.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Gord)</author>
            <category>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=30&amp;t=13640</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 01:44:15 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy :: Re: Is atheism a belief system? :: Reply by ruben lopez</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&amp;t=13640&amp;p=211871#p211871</link>
            <description><![CDATA[I call it like it is. Most BS don't take with me. Now if the church allowed women preistesses with exposed breastesses to teach, then you mofos would be talking to a fundamentalist religiofreak right now. Luckily for the world, I have an innate disposition to tell the man to go {!#%@} himself.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (ruben lopez)</author>
            <category>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=30&amp;t=13640</comments>
            <pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:14:59 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy :: Re: Burning the Koran :: Reply by JO 753</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&amp;t=13648&amp;p=211765#p211765</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Announcing<br /><span style="font-size: 150%; line-height: normal"><strong>The First Annual Intergalactic English Dictionary Barbeque</strong></span><br /><span style="font-size: 85%; line-height: normal">In protest of stupid standard spelling conventions</span>]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (JO 753)</author>
            <category>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=30&amp;t=13648</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:15:12 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy :: Re: Burning the Koran :: Reply by landrew</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&amp;t=13648&amp;p=211771#p211771</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>fromthehills wrote:</cite>It's sad. The things I've seen you write in proper English are great. Come back to the light, Jo.</div></blockquote><br />Please, Jo.  I know you have a lot invested in this Nooalf thing, but it's just not working.  Time to cut your losses.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (landrew)</author>
            <category>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=30&amp;t=13648</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:51:32 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy :: Re: Burning the Koran :: Reply by JO 753</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&amp;t=13648&amp;p=211772#p211772</link>
            <description><![CDATA[OK. I'll go get a lobotomy. Be back in a few weeks.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (JO 753)</author>
            <category>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=30&amp;t=13648</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:56:01 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy :: Re: Burning the Koran :: Reply by NeroXIV</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&amp;t=13648&amp;p=211774#p211774</link>
            <description><![CDATA[Let's have a Bible burning.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (NeroXIV)</author>
            <category>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=30&amp;t=13648</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:59:42 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy :: Re: Burning the Koran :: Reply by landrew</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&amp;t=13648&amp;p=211775#p211775</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>NeroXIV wrote:</cite>Let's have a Bible burning.</div></blockquote><br />It's wouldn't cause anywhere near the same amount of outrage.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (landrew)</author>
            <category>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=30&amp;t=13648</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:01:54 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy :: Re: Burning the Koran :: Reply by ruben lopez</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&amp;t=13648&amp;p=211779#p211779</link>
            <description><![CDATA[I have a book on fire safety. Let's throw that in. Math books. Science books. All flammable.<br /><br /> I remember a scene from the movie, &quot;The Day After Tomarrow&quot;, where the world is about to seemingly end a man is holding a book on his lap. A girl asks him what he's holding and he replies he's holding a Gutenberg Bible. She asks him, &quot;Aren't you an atheist?&quot; He says he is but he is preserving not what's inside the book, but what it represents for humanity. The act of printing for posterity and future generations. I love that scene. <br />Book burning is a sign of uncivilized, willful ignorance. Not something to be proud of. I think Alabama, Arkansas, and Mississippi are about to move ahead of Florida in the smarts department. And that's saying something.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (ruben lopez)</author>
            <category>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=30&amp;t=13648</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:22:34 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy :: Re: Burning the Koran :: Reply by Brian Ganek</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&amp;t=13648&amp;p=211789#p211789</link>
            <description><![CDATA[I love the media reports, they talk like innocent bystanders, but they are the enablers of this publicity event.]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (Brian Ganek)</author>
            <category>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=30&amp;t=13648</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:12:55 GMT</pubDate>
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            <title>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy :: Re: Burning the Koran :: Reply by NeroXIV</title>
            <link>http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&amp;t=13648&amp;p=211790#p211790</link>
            <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div><cite>landrew wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>NeroXIV wrote:</cite>Let's have a Bible burning.</div></blockquote><br />It's wouldn't cause anywhere near the same amount of outrage.</div></blockquote><br />What about a flag burning?]]></description>
            <author>no_email@example.com (NeroXIV)</author>
            <category>Belief, Nonbelief, and Philosophy</category>
            <comments>http://www.skepticforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&amp;f=30&amp;t=13648</comments>
            <pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:18:48 GMT</pubDate>
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